DJ: 4 crew on 737-800 next year?
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Well before you get your back too far arched, I only asked because I work on 733s now in a 3 crew operation and wondered if perhaps you have worked for the same company as me.
Last edited by sebby; 10th Sep 2006 at 10:55. Reason: Jumped the gun ;P
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As for DJ proceeding with the 4 crew 738, this has been canned for the moment. As per the email that was inadvertantly sent out by a DM, it was retracted about 30 minutes after it was released. Yes they are holding on to it for a little longer, and from my way of thinking, once the new EBA has been completed. So therefor we ( DJ crew) should/need to stipulate in our new EBA about how many crew are required per an aircraft. This will be important if DJ purchase the Embraer jets which hold about 80-100 pax.
I couldnt imagine 4 crew on a 100 seater, so negotiation would need to be sort.
I couldnt imagine 4 crew on a 100 seater, so negotiation would need to be sort.
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1:50 ratio
hey there,
yes i can confirm that it is an option for VB to crew a -800 with 4 crew, we can already do it. At the moment it requires no more than 144 PAX. The 1:50 is nothing new, it is done by many successful airlines such as south west. Freedom air have it as well, which is now also includes Air NZ A320 serivces. To be honest with you, 3 crew on a 700 is not ideal due to the service, restocking of the catering and cleaning all will prove 30 min turns and 3 crew will not work. However we must think about getting aircraft out in the mornings. Say for example a 700 is doing OOL SYD at 510am sign on. a cc member goes sick at the airport. there is nothing we can do at the moment. it will cancell the flight or wait for another crew to arrive at the airport. If we can go with 3 crew and get into SYD, we can be joined by a relief cc, or they could have paxed another crew to meet the aircraft when it gets in. Pac Blue can operate an 800 with 3 crew and reduced pax load of 150... is that what is next on the scene?
yes i can confirm that it is an option for VB to crew a -800 with 4 crew, we can already do it. At the moment it requires no more than 144 PAX. The 1:50 is nothing new, it is done by many successful airlines such as south west. Freedom air have it as well, which is now also includes Air NZ A320 serivces. To be honest with you, 3 crew on a 700 is not ideal due to the service, restocking of the catering and cleaning all will prove 30 min turns and 3 crew will not work. However we must think about getting aircraft out in the mornings. Say for example a 700 is doing OOL SYD at 510am sign on. a cc member goes sick at the airport. there is nothing we can do at the moment. it will cancell the flight or wait for another crew to arrive at the airport. If we can go with 3 crew and get into SYD, we can be joined by a relief cc, or they could have paxed another crew to meet the aircraft when it gets in. Pac Blue can operate an 800 with 3 crew and reduced pax load of 150... is that what is next on the scene?
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look.. there are plenty 'for' and 'againsts' for this topic. personally, i think the more crew the better,perhaps not evacuation wise (unless the a/c is all in one peice and its agood evac where its not broken up) but just for other things.. like inflight fires etc it would be great to have the extra crew available.
having said that.. this WILL go through. there is no way it wont. Its happening in Europe.. and our companies here want it. Perhaps we need to start thinking more about our ABP briefings instead of ranting and raving.
And i also agree.. half the cabin crew you fly with (all of us.. no one in particular) are probably useless in an evac anyway. i flew the other day with a chickie who panicked about upcoming EPs cos "she knew nothing.. had NO idea".
it makes me wonder.
xx
having said that.. this WILL go through. there is no way it wont. Its happening in Europe.. and our companies here want it. Perhaps we need to start thinking more about our ABP briefings instead of ranting and raving.
And i also agree.. half the cabin crew you fly with (all of us.. no one in particular) are probably useless in an evac anyway. i flew the other day with a chickie who panicked about upcoming EPs cos "she knew nothing.. had NO idea".
it makes me wonder.
xx
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So, its now been officially announced - 4 crew on the 737-800 rostered from early next year, and in the meantime the -800 can be crewed with 4 crew and a full pax load if someone goes sick
http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/2006/CASA321.pdf
I don't care if its done elsewhere in the world, as I said earlier it does not mean its worlds best practice - just cheapest
Has anyone else noticed that alot of the cost cutting that is going on is happening in the CC department? 4 Crew on the B738; and this next EBA - who knows what its going to come of it...
Can I please ask that crew of other australian airlines don't blame VB crew when this is implemented with you too - we are just as against it as you are
http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/2006/CASA321.pdf
I don't care if its done elsewhere in the world, as I said earlier it does not mean its worlds best practice - just cheapest
Has anyone else noticed that alot of the cost cutting that is going on is happening in the CC department? 4 Crew on the B738; and this next EBA - who knows what its going to come of it...
Can I please ask that crew of other australian airlines don't blame VB crew when this is implemented with you too - we are just as against it as you are
Last edited by sinala1; 17th Oct 2006 at 05:16. Reason: To include link to CASA document
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What do you think the major imapcts of this will be for you at Virgin?
I'm curious as I fly on 767-300's and we have 4 crew looking after 204 pax in economy. Sure a 5th crew member would be great, however we manage to do a full service on a CNS/BNE and CNS/SYD sector.
In relations to an evacuation, what is the role of the 5th crew member at Virgin? Responsibility for o/wings as there are only 4 doors? I just want to know how you guys think this will effect things.
Cheers,
Raverflaver
I'm curious as I fly on 767-300's and we have 4 crew looking after 204 pax in economy. Sure a 5th crew member would be great, however we manage to do a full service on a CNS/BNE and CNS/SYD sector.
In relations to an evacuation, what is the role of the 5th crew member at Virgin? Responsibility for o/wings as there are only 4 doors? I just want to know how you guys think this will effect things.
Cheers,
Raverflaver
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I am totally disgusted with the 3 crew operation that QF jetconnect/Air NZ continue to operate out of NZ. ( Please note this opinion does not relate to the crew who operate for these carriers/subsidiary)
Let's think about the QF 6 incident for example. Crew have already disarmed their doors as a/c has docked on aerobridge. Then......engineers on ground report fire from landing gear due overheated breakes....this then causes 'evacuate ' PA from flight deck.
Although the QF6 indicent relates to 744 aircraft, tell me how one flight attendant at the rear of a 737 would deal with this if it were to happen to him/her ?
I can only imagine what the drill cards under the jumpseat of the poor bugger sitting at the rear R2/L2 door must say -:
1. Commence Evac Commands
2. Check BOTH doors safe to open
3. Stop 100 + rushing/scared pax coming towards you
4. Keep them out of galley
5. Stop them pushing you out of way
6. Make sure your commands are loud and clear so they obey
7. Get down on knees and arm BOTH doors again ensuring girt bar is engaged.
5. Recheck BOTH doors
6. Open BOTH doors
7.Ensure inflation on BOTH slides
8. Direct passengers off aircraft
We have some people on here who managed to serve hot sandwhiches on a 40min sector with 3 crew. Congratulations !! Service or Safety ??
Let's think about the QF 6 incident for example. Crew have already disarmed their doors as a/c has docked on aerobridge. Then......engineers on ground report fire from landing gear due overheated breakes....this then causes 'evacuate ' PA from flight deck.
Although the QF6 indicent relates to 744 aircraft, tell me how one flight attendant at the rear of a 737 would deal with this if it were to happen to him/her ?
I can only imagine what the drill cards under the jumpseat of the poor bugger sitting at the rear R2/L2 door must say -:
1. Commence Evac Commands
2. Check BOTH doors safe to open
3. Stop 100 + rushing/scared pax coming towards you
4. Keep them out of galley
5. Stop them pushing you out of way
6. Make sure your commands are loud and clear so they obey
7. Get down on knees and arm BOTH doors again ensuring girt bar is engaged.
5. Recheck BOTH doors
6. Open BOTH doors
7.Ensure inflation on BOTH slides
8. Direct passengers off aircraft
We have some people on here who managed to serve hot sandwhiches on a 40min sector with 3 crew. Congratulations !! Service or Safety ??
Last edited by QF skywalker; 17th Oct 2006 at 06:51. Reason: spelling error
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I do realise that, however they still do go out into the cabins with carts offering a service....
My concern was, will it impact that much in an evacuation.....as you wouldn't need two crew operating a door.....unless of an incapactiated primary....that's why I was curious as to what their 5th crew members responsibility currently isin the event of an emrgency.....
RaverFlaver
My concern was, will it impact that much in an evacuation.....as you wouldn't need two crew operating a door.....unless of an incapactiated primary....that's why I was curious as to what their 5th crew members responsibility currently isin the event of an emrgency.....
RaverFlaver
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In a 3 crew operation there at Jetconnect there are 2 FAs seated at the rear. The CSM is forward on their own. An Air New Zealand 733 with 3 cabin crew recently evactuated 100 pax and 3 infants with no injuries on the tarmac at AKL international. They did a sterling job, and in a very quick space of time. Google it....
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Sebby regardless of where you all sit, the point I am trying to make is the workload of a single f/a in the given situation. Don't take it personally, I know you work for the airline concerned hence why I made the comment in previous post that I am not attacking crew.
Telling me to google an Air NZ incident does nothing to stop my fears over 3 crew evacuations. Every emergency is different and not every evacuation runs smoothly - that is why I am posing the QF 6 re-arming door and evacuating question for 3 cabin crew compliment crew.
Telling me to google an Air NZ incident does nothing to stop my fears over 3 crew evacuations. Every emergency is different and not every evacuation runs smoothly - that is why I am posing the QF 6 re-arming door and evacuating question for 3 cabin crew compliment crew.
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Hang on - I most certainly wasnt taking it personally, i merely want to take a positive out of the hard working 3 crew operation. Gee id love to have 4 crew on a domestic operation, especially regarding the 400 but its been proven once that it can work and the likes of Geoff Dixon and co would have heard cha ching at the sight of that near miss recently! Ive worked in Aus under those laws and I agree with you, 100% safety and service satisfaction will never be complete under these conditions but its been this way here and in many other places for a long time and its certainly not going to go the other way in those places but its just a matter of time before it does in australia. 
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QF Skywalker,
Like Sebby I too have worked with 3 crew on a 733.
If you use your example, during that stage of things, L1 door would be opened with air bridge attached. L2 & R2 would have crews at the door and both doors would take a few seconds at most to rearm (there is clearly no need to cross check them in an emergency) and the doors would be opened. That's at least 3 exits usable, from that it would be easy to evacuate a maximum of 126 pax in 90 seconds, especially considering most would exit through the airbridge (as they did on QF6).
The 737 door arming procedure is very quick and simple, the slides inflate in under 15 seconds.
With 3 crew, there is still always 3 primary doors covered, plus ABP are provided with comprehensive briefings at the O/W exits, essentially in a prepared evac you have 5 usable exits - remember the FAA and CASA certification for the 733 was done using only 3.
I've worked with 3, 4 and 5 crew on the 733 and all modes were perfectly safe. Unless you've seen the SOP's for the 3 crew configuration, I don't think you're qualified to comment. There are many crew on this board from both NZ and Europe who operate under this configuration and I have never read of any of them feeling unsafe about doing so.
Like Sebby I too have worked with 3 crew on a 733.
If you use your example, during that stage of things, L1 door would be opened with air bridge attached. L2 & R2 would have crews at the door and both doors would take a few seconds at most to rearm (there is clearly no need to cross check them in an emergency) and the doors would be opened. That's at least 3 exits usable, from that it would be easy to evacuate a maximum of 126 pax in 90 seconds, especially considering most would exit through the airbridge (as they did on QF6).
The 737 door arming procedure is very quick and simple, the slides inflate in under 15 seconds.
With 3 crew, there is still always 3 primary doors covered, plus ABP are provided with comprehensive briefings at the O/W exits, essentially in a prepared evac you have 5 usable exits - remember the FAA and CASA certification for the 733 was done using only 3.
I've worked with 3, 4 and 5 crew on the 733 and all modes were perfectly safe. Unless you've seen the SOP's for the 3 crew configuration, I don't think you're qualified to comment. There are many crew on this board from both NZ and Europe who operate under this configuration and I have never read of any of them feeling unsafe about doing so.
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Take Scandinavian Airlines (SAS) for instance. They usually operate with minimum crew on all their aircraft types; Boeing 737-600/700 3 CC, Boeing 737-800 4 CC, MD80 3 CC... would be surprised to see if they go out with more crew than required!
BA LGW, B737 is also crewed by 3 CC.
londonlads
BA LGW, B737 is also crewed by 3 CC.
londonlads
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The point again that I will continue to make is Just because other parts of the world do it, does NOT mean that australia has to - its not necessarily worlds best practice, just worlds cheapest...
There is no mention in the exemption of the -700 having 3 crew - its only for the -800 to have 4 crew.
Glad to see the cost cutting is not being included in upper management though - did everyone see the proposition in the Notice of AGM to give Brett another 650,000 shares?
(for those of you who didnt read the letter, you can find it here http://www.virginblue.com.au/pdfs/in...ofAGMFinal.pdf - its Section 5 on page 2 of the letter...)
There is no mention in the exemption of the -700 having 3 crew - its only for the -800 to have 4 crew.
Glad to see the cost cutting is not being included in upper management though - did everyone see the proposition in the Notice of AGM to give Brett another 650,000 shares?
(for those of you who didnt read the letter, you can find it here http://www.virginblue.com.au/pdfs/in...ofAGMFinal.pdf - its Section 5 on page 2 of the letter...)
Last edited by sinala1; 17th Oct 2006 at 11:39. Reason: To include link to Notice of AGM Letter
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I have to agree with Sinala 1, just because countries in other parts of the world do things differently, doesn't mean their practices are any better or safer than ours. I also work in the healthcare industry as a Nurse and having worked in the UK I can say that we are fortunate to have much better nurse to patient ratios here in Australia and I believe consequently better patient outcomes and having worked as a nurse in the UK, our healthcare system is leaps and bounds ahead when it comes to safe practice, this is why our nursing unions fight very hard to maintain the high working standards and practices we have here in Oz.
less crew on 800s will mean they need to employ less crew