DJ: 4 crew on 737-800 next year?
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thats Fantastic Jetstar FA - we can all look for ABP, and in prepared cases we can brief them on how to operate exits etc - i think a good example of this was the UA 747 HNL-SYD which had its fwd cargo door ripped off.
Unfortunately where this falls apart is in unprepared senarios - i think an example here was a BA737 which had an engine blow apart whilst taxiing, rupturing the fuel tanks - fire - unfortunately exits were opened by pax near the fire, which let the fire/smoke into the cabin, killing a fair few.
I think in all unsupervised exits (which we have currently regardless of pax ratios) there is potential for serious injuries.
Unfortunately where this falls apart is in unprepared senarios - i think an example here was a BA737 which had an engine blow apart whilst taxiing, rupturing the fuel tanks - fire - unfortunately exits were opened by pax near the fire, which let the fire/smoke into the cabin, killing a fair few.
I think in all unsupervised exits (which we have currently regardless of pax ratios) there is potential for serious injuries.
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I hasten to add if my memory serves me correctly, the FA interviewed after the UA incident, said that her ABPs almost tried taking over the situation. So ABPs arent always that fantastic.
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I know other parts of the world operate this way, but thats no reason for us to start doing so. As a nation, we have one of the best safety records in the world - lets not start eroding at the pieces of the puzzle that make up this record
This is busines - you adapt to survive. If australian aviation puts itself at a competitive disadvantage by requiring more crew per aircraft than other countries, then large numbers of you will be spending alot more time at home reading pprune and looking for work.
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Blueloo - I don't know if you fly or not BUT in a prepared cabin emergency one of the briefs we give to the 2 ABP's who will take over my main deck door or an overwing exit in an emergency if I (as flight attendant) am incapacitated. We tell them to throw me out and take control to evacuate the aircraft....
Blueloo - I am more than happy to operate on a 1:36 ratio but can also operate on a 1:50 ratio..... easy done... 14 more people.
The UA flight from HNL -SYD via AKL is an example of chaos.... nothing to do with ABP's trying to save the world and "take over".
In all my years of flying there are some cabin crew in an emergency situation who should jump down the slide and let an ABP take over.. I assume that with your research you also found that a lot of ABP's actually helped the situation as well
British Airtours B737 in Manchester with an engine fire. Yes exits were opened and people passed away....as well as people who were nowhere near the exits that would have gone into shock and remained in their seat and a pax sitting next to them survived..... Nothing to do with ABPS.....
AN ABP is not necessarily Mr Joe Belowaverage and his wife...An ABP can be paxing crew (any airline worldwide) , military, police, etc)
It is not my idea to operate the 1:50 ration, but if an Air France A340 operating on a 1:50 ration can get all pax of a burning plane at the end of a runway then I can get them off and A320 177 / 4 is 44.25. I can get 44.25 people of a burning plane....
Thats my job
Blueloo - I am more than happy to operate on a 1:36 ratio but can also operate on a 1:50 ratio..... easy done... 14 more people.
The UA flight from HNL -SYD via AKL is an example of chaos.... nothing to do with ABP's trying to save the world and "take over".
In all my years of flying there are some cabin crew in an emergency situation who should jump down the slide and let an ABP take over.. I assume that with your research you also found that a lot of ABP's actually helped the situation as well
British Airtours B737 in Manchester with an engine fire. Yes exits were opened and people passed away....as well as people who were nowhere near the exits that would have gone into shock and remained in their seat and a pax sitting next to them survived..... Nothing to do with ABPS.....
AN ABP is not necessarily Mr Joe Belowaverage and his wife...An ABP can be paxing crew (any airline worldwide) , military, police, etc)
It is not my idea to operate the 1:50 ration, but if an Air France A340 operating on a 1:50 ration can get all pax of a burning plane at the end of a runway then I can get them off and A320 177 / 4 is 44.25. I can get 44.25 people of a burning plane....
Thats my job
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Air france in Canada was no where near a Crew/Pax ratio of 1:50. There were
297 Pax onboard and 9 or 10 Cabin crew.
10 crew = 1:29
9 crew = 1:33
Would 6 Cabin crew have got all of the Pax out in time ?- not sure. But I know most pax would prefer a crew member for each door and a ratio of 1:36
297 Pax onboard and 9 or 10 Cabin crew.
10 crew = 1:29
9 crew = 1:33
Would 6 Cabin crew have got all of the Pax out in time ?- not sure. But I know most pax would prefer a crew member for each door and a ratio of 1:36
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I think the point was that if the aircraft was full the ratio would have been 1:50... lets remember its only 1:50 with full loads.
In NZ law the aircraft can be crewed by 2 cabin crew if the pax number falls below 100 (ie a 135 seat aircraft only has 86 pax), this i think is awful... the laws are the laws and the unions only have so much power to stop this. If it is of real concern then the tech crew should step in and say something, people usually listen to them.
The union in aus would have to be one of the strongest in the world and is probably the best avenue to voice thses concerns!
In NZ law the aircraft can be crewed by 2 cabin crew if the pax number falls below 100 (ie a 135 seat aircraft only has 86 pax), this i think is awful... the laws are the laws and the unions only have so much power to stop this. If it is of real concern then the tech crew should step in and say something, people usually listen to them.
The union in aus would have to be one of the strongest in the world and is probably the best avenue to voice thses concerns!
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"One Mr T.J- now with Q.F , who was known at Ansett as a desk thumping megalomaniac, pushed extrememley hard to get the ratio changed fron 1:36 to 1:50. It just happened to coincide with the introduction of 100 seat CRJ jet for Kendall Airlines. It was his cost saving dream to operate these aircraft with 2 cabin crew instead of 3".
The CRJ only has 50 seats. I get the point though.
The CRJ only has 50 seats. I get the point though.
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Originally Posted by Dog Ears Up
Large parts of the world operate on the 1:50 rule, but australian aviation is in someway too precious to do the same? Applying the logic of the safety question, safety would be enhanced by operating with 8 crew on this type, and even more so with 16.
If these next EBA's (pilots and crew) get through at DJ, they stand to make SUBSTANTIAL savings in crew efficiency, hotel and transport costs, and of course reduced number of overnight payments - so don't talk to us about adaptability to survive, we already know and understand...
This needs to be fought people - otherwise I think it will be the straw that breaks the camels back for a large number of crew
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Here, Here Sinala1! Couldn't agree more. Just because the rest of the world does something, doesn't mean its right! Its like that old saying, 'if everyone else was jumping off a cliff, would you?"
I dread working a 4 sector day on a 700 as you haven't got time to break - even for the toilet!
I guess when service suffers and complaints go up, VB may realise it wasn't such a good idea. Not to mention the increase to supplemental pay claims!
I rang the FAAA, they said that the government looks at this change nearly every year and they are constantly lobbying against it. Unfortuneatley I think that our poor union is no match for the might of DJ and QF united. Apparently there is a lot of pressure from NZ as well as reduced crew ration allows air NZ (and I imagine PB as well!) to operate domestic in aussie airspace. Once again money is more important than safety
In the words of C-3PO : 'we are doomed'.
I dread working a 4 sector day on a 700 as you haven't got time to break - even for the toilet!
I guess when service suffers and complaints go up, VB may realise it wasn't such a good idea. Not to mention the increase to supplemental pay claims!
I rang the FAAA, they said that the government looks at this change nearly every year and they are constantly lobbying against it. Unfortuneatley I think that our poor union is no match for the might of DJ and QF united. Apparently there is a lot of pressure from NZ as well as reduced crew ration allows air NZ (and I imagine PB as well!) to operate domestic in aussie airspace. Once again money is more important than safety
In the words of C-3PO : 'we are doomed'.
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Four on the floor
Sinala1, I contacted the people at the FAAA and a lovely young lady was quite helpfull with info! She was i noticed very careful to point out that though they are facing the fight of the 1:50 ratio it appears that our 700's are not under threat as the requirement for min 1 per "Door" will remain. Still with something like 26 800's with say four full crew's per operating day that is a saving of 104 crew per day on the fleet. Funny how that could provide the 2 crew required to operate a Embraer 175.
It's going to make working an 800 to Per fully loaded a bastard, sup forms for 4 hour flights what a joke hey matey?
It's going to make working an 800 to Per fully loaded a bastard, sup forms for 4 hour flights what a joke hey matey?
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Senate Report 1:50 Ratio
http://www.faaadomestic.org.au/links.htm
The bottom of this pages has links to the Senate Report - Civil Aviation Legislation Amendment (Mutual Recognition with New Zealand) Bill 2005
Its been with the Senate for the past year and is fully supported by Virgin Blue, Jetstar and Qantas..... They will save big bucks doing this.
The bottom of this pages has links to the Senate Report - Civil Aviation Legislation Amendment (Mutual Recognition with New Zealand) Bill 2005
Its been with the Senate for the past year and is fully supported by Virgin Blue, Jetstar and Qantas..... They will save big bucks doing this.
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Henry,
Happy to stand corrected.The CRJ was in fact a 50 seater. It was a long time ago. T.J wanted to get the ratio changed to 1:50 so they could be operated with 1 cabin crew, as per the SAAB.
Happy to stand corrected.The CRJ was in fact a 50 seater. It was a long time ago. T.J wanted to get the ratio changed to 1:50 so they could be operated with 1 cabin crew, as per the SAAB.
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Are you serious? You're not related to this 'aircraft' fellow are you? Anyway, when was the last time you had a chance to evaluate the differences between an evacuation with 5 F/A's as opposed to one with only 4? Oh, sorry, I forgot-we are only there to serve sandwiches.
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Jetstar FA, actually in the UAL 801 incident, in a taped interview one of the FAs mentioned above admitted having to physically stop the ABP's from taking over as they were so gung-ho they wanted to command the evac even though she was ok...
true ABPs can be handy but I'm sure you will agree, not as handy as someone who is trained and familiar with the operation of the doors. I mean, who wants to be opening a door for the first time when you've got 50-100 of your fellow pax screaming at you, smoke, dire, confusion etc, if you've never done it before?
At least an FA (even if an extra or paxing) has the backup of 'routine' experience with the door to be quicker than the average joe during an evac... also, no matter how much you brief your ABP's in the say, 20mins you might have, it's probably not long enough for them to truly understand the impoartance of not using an unusable exit - someone who doesn't know 'why' is likely to do as happened with the Manchester incident and open a door into smoke/flame/fumes... and kill a lot of pax...
An ABP is not substitute for an FA!! They're just a backup for 'worst case'!! Thinking otherwise is like saying a guy with a PPL will do as well as the tech crew 'as a backup'... let's not kid ourselves.. .as Sinala said, just because the rest of the world does it this way doesn't mean we should too!!
true ABPs can be handy but I'm sure you will agree, not as handy as someone who is trained and familiar with the operation of the doors. I mean, who wants to be opening a door for the first time when you've got 50-100 of your fellow pax screaming at you, smoke, dire, confusion etc, if you've never done it before?
At least an FA (even if an extra or paxing) has the backup of 'routine' experience with the door to be quicker than the average joe during an evac... also, no matter how much you brief your ABP's in the say, 20mins you might have, it's probably not long enough for them to truly understand the impoartance of not using an unusable exit - someone who doesn't know 'why' is likely to do as happened with the Manchester incident and open a door into smoke/flame/fumes... and kill a lot of pax...
An ABP is not substitute for an FA!! They're just a backup for 'worst case'!! Thinking otherwise is like saying a guy with a PPL will do as well as the tech crew 'as a backup'... let's not kid ourselves.. .as Sinala said, just because the rest of the world does it this way doesn't mean we should too!!
Last edited by SkySista; 9th Sep 2006 at 20:42. Reason: shocking typos! :p
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Skysista - Valid points
BUT
Quote:I mean, who wants to be opening a door for the first time when you've got 50-100 of your fellow pax screaming at you, smoke, dire, confusion etc, if you've never done it before?
I have never opened a door in an emergency and I can bet that probably 90% of crew haven't opened a door in an emergency..... Jetstar Crew don't even open a door in normal operating mode..... I have NEVER opened a door on an A320 (once a year on aan OLD Ansett mock up for EP's total of 3 times.). So who's to say that myself or any other crew can complete the task.
Quote:An ABP is not substitute for an FA!! They're just a backup for 'worst case'!!
At JQ only 4 crew are responsible for a door (4 doors) and we have 5 crew,,, the 5th crew member supervises an overwing exit removal (if they can get there).
We have provisions in our manual to operate on reduced crew......
I used to operate with 3 crew on a 737-300 quite successfully..... Person at the back was responsible for the opening of the 2 back doors......
In the 10 years I have flown as crew and a further 25 I have flown as a pax I have never even had a blood nose.....
Unfortunately I have said Time and Time AGAIN AND AGAIN... Jetstar, Qantas, Virgin and any other airline don't care about safety UNTIL the proverbial hits the fan...... Until we have an incident (heaven forbid) the airlines of the world and especially the ones we all work for will cut corners to save dollars and cents..... FACT.... tell me I am wrong.... I won't believe that anyone in my airline or friends who work in other airlines can stride to work and not see the wrong doings of our managers and say with conviction that they feel safe....
I don't need a fact lesson on a UAL flight or flights where an ABP opens doors... All too aware of these facts and have been hearing about them and been taught them in Grounds Schools for the past 10 years...
FACT - 1:50 will go ahead..... Get used to it
BUT
Quote:I mean, who wants to be opening a door for the first time when you've got 50-100 of your fellow pax screaming at you, smoke, dire, confusion etc, if you've never done it before?
I have never opened a door in an emergency and I can bet that probably 90% of crew haven't opened a door in an emergency..... Jetstar Crew don't even open a door in normal operating mode..... I have NEVER opened a door on an A320 (once a year on aan OLD Ansett mock up for EP's total of 3 times.). So who's to say that myself or any other crew can complete the task.
Quote:An ABP is not substitute for an FA!! They're just a backup for 'worst case'!!
At JQ only 4 crew are responsible for a door (4 doors) and we have 5 crew,,, the 5th crew member supervises an overwing exit removal (if they can get there).
We have provisions in our manual to operate on reduced crew......
I used to operate with 3 crew on a 737-300 quite successfully..... Person at the back was responsible for the opening of the 2 back doors......
In the 10 years I have flown as crew and a further 25 I have flown as a pax I have never even had a blood nose.....
Unfortunately I have said Time and Time AGAIN AND AGAIN... Jetstar, Qantas, Virgin and any other airline don't care about safety UNTIL the proverbial hits the fan...... Until we have an incident (heaven forbid) the airlines of the world and especially the ones we all work for will cut corners to save dollars and cents..... FACT.... tell me I am wrong.... I won't believe that anyone in my airline or friends who work in other airlines can stride to work and not see the wrong doings of our managers and say with conviction that they feel safe....
I don't need a fact lesson on a UAL flight or flights where an ABP opens doors... All too aware of these facts and have been hearing about them and been taught them in Grounds Schools for the past 10 years...
FACT - 1:50 will go ahead..... Get used to it