Miscommunication btwn CC and Flight Deck....
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Miscommunication btwn CC and Flight Deck....
Hey all....
I'm currently writing a report for classes regarding CRM and how deficiencies can contribute to accidents. To narrow it down a bit, I have decided to focus on miscommunication between Cabin Crew and Flight Deck. (both ways)
Thus far I have two examples, one is the Airtours(?) 737 which shut down the wrong engine after CC didn't tell the Capt the sparks were from OTHER engine... the other is that ASA Brasilia where the CC didn't inform the Capt the whole engine was gone...
Just wondering if anyone else know of other examples (as well as situations where Flight Deck omitted/misinformed CC which resulted in injury/death...)
Also if you personally have had any experience with this, and are willing to provide date/time/type of incident (obviously if it is on public record only) please PM me. I ask this because w ehave to reference any experiences told to us so they know it 'really happened'.... lol.....
Mod, feel free to move to Safety/CRM if that's a more appropriate place...
Thanks for any help you can give!!
Sky
I'm currently writing a report for classes regarding CRM and how deficiencies can contribute to accidents. To narrow it down a bit, I have decided to focus on miscommunication between Cabin Crew and Flight Deck. (both ways)
Thus far I have two examples, one is the Airtours(?) 737 which shut down the wrong engine after CC didn't tell the Capt the sparks were from OTHER engine... the other is that ASA Brasilia where the CC didn't inform the Capt the whole engine was gone...
Just wondering if anyone else know of other examples (as well as situations where Flight Deck omitted/misinformed CC which resulted in injury/death...)
Also if you personally have had any experience with this, and are willing to provide date/time/type of incident (obviously if it is on public record only) please PM me. I ask this because w ehave to reference any experiences told to us so they know it 'really happened'.... lol.....
Mod, feel free to move to Safety/CRM if that's a more appropriate place...
Thanks for any help you can give!!
Sky
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Thus far I have two examples, one is the Airtours(?) 737 which shut down the wrong engine after CC didn't tell the Capt the sparks were from OTHER engine
Another good incident to study is QF1 in BKK - a B744 overran the runway and ended up in a golf course. The actual runway overrun was not anything to do with the cabin crew (obviously!) however the ensuing half hour or so are quite interesting - the aircraft's E&E bay (the part of the a/c that has all the controlling devices for interphones etc) was submerged in mud and subsequently rendered useless - very difficult for the crew on the main deck to communicate with the flight deck re evacuation etc... the link to the official Australian Transport Safety Bureau report can be found here and is well worth the read....
A further incident worth reading about is an Air New Zealand B762 taking off out of Brisbane that had an engine cowling separation and subsequent return to BNE. The flight crew contacted the Supervisor, who failed to pass the information on regarding brace commands to be shouted, cabin preparation etc (commands used on ANZ were at the time different depending on whether it was prepared/unprepared)... the result was half the crew shouting the prepared brace commands, other half shouting unprepared brace commands... you can find the link to the ATSB report here... its a long but very worthwhile read!
Hope these help - and I am sure I can track down some more for you if you want! A QF one springs to mind re a B767 crew who were standing for landing.....
Cheers!
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another good one is the air canada dc-9 incident where the toilet caught fire, and there was mis communication between the cc and f/d and the fo/ and capt. plane was ablaze, and subsequently large loss of life. F/O told captain fire was out but wasn't.
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Interesting topic SkySista
Seems a matter of semantics to me Hand Solo. For example in our mob, flight crew is everybody who works onboard the AC, with the pilots being cockpit crew and ourselves cabin crew.
Here on PPRuNe I've learnt that there are many different ways we refer to eachother, some nice, some not so nice, but in the context of this thread the term flight deck comes across as entirely neutral to me.
Jettesen, that incident is one I often refer to during the SEP bit of the briefing. Wouldn't mind refreshing my memory on it; anybody got a good link?
Seems a matter of semantics to me Hand Solo. For example in our mob, flight crew is everybody who works onboard the AC, with the pilots being cockpit crew and ourselves cabin crew.
Here on PPRuNe I've learnt that there are many different ways we refer to eachother, some nice, some not so nice, but in the context of this thread the term flight deck comes across as entirely neutral to me.
Jettesen, that incident is one I often refer to during the SEP bit of the briefing. Wouldn't mind refreshing my memory on it; anybody got a good link?
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Sky, the BMI 737-400 Kegworth accident is a VERY good example, and new crews always respond very well to it during initial training. The video reconstruction that has been produced is very well done too. It enlightens all the different rings of the chain that led to the disaster-from flight crew being converted on the new 737 too quickly to the confusion about right=Nr2 engine and right=correct engine, miscommunication between passengers and cabin crew and the already present tension between Flight and Cabin crew.
I have a very detailed report on that, I just need to find it!!!
Another always valid talking point is the Saudi Arabian Airlines L-1011 accident which happened on aug 19th 1980. They had a fire in the cargo hold, which spread into the cabin very quickly, soon after leaving Ryadh and landed back, but a series of communication mistakes resulted in the death, on the ground, of all the crew+passengers on board (Plane didn't stop immediately and crews didn't evacuate).
It is very interesting, I would look into it if I were you. Again I have some very detailed information about it at home but need to do some tidying up!!!
If you want a less tragic one, the Qantas 747 which floated over the runway-big problems with CRM in the cockpit- and then overrun the runway is a good one. Crews at the front opened the doors and those at the back of the jumbo didn't even notice the nose had collapsed!!!
Anyway, the internet is a very useful source, you'll find tons of information. I will try to find the documents anyway (hopefully before Christmas!!!) 
Ciao
FBW
PS: on the airtours 737-200, if I am not mistaken, the fire was on the ground. The plane never got off the ground.
I have a very detailed report on that, I just need to find it!!!
Another always valid talking point is the Saudi Arabian Airlines L-1011 accident which happened on aug 19th 1980. They had a fire in the cargo hold, which spread into the cabin very quickly, soon after leaving Ryadh and landed back, but a series of communication mistakes resulted in the death, on the ground, of all the crew+passengers on board (Plane didn't stop immediately and crews didn't evacuate).
It is very interesting, I would look into it if I were you. Again I have some very detailed information about it at home but need to do some tidying up!!!
If you want a less tragic one, the Qantas 747 which floated over the runway-big problems with CRM in the cockpit- and then overrun the runway is a good one. Crews at the front opened the doors and those at the back of the jumbo didn't even notice the nose had collapsed!!!
Anyway, the internet is a very useful source, you'll find tons of information.
I will try to find the documents anyway (hopefully before Christmas!!!) Ciao
FBW
PS: on the airtours 737-200, if I am not mistaken, the fire was on the ground. The plane never got off the ground.
Last edited by flybywire; 11th Jun 2005 at 11:08.
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flybywire, I think the welcome pa was started whilst the a/c was still decelerating down the runway and was stopped midway when the CC realised something was wrong.
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Fujiflyer you are probably right. In fact after that incident some airlines changed the procedure for the welcome pa-they now do it once the aircraft has safely turned onto the taxiway.
(post above edited)
(post above edited)
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Very interesting. This reminds me the situation from 1998 when one of B767 engines got on fire on take off from BKK and when the supervisor entered the flight deck for the info on situation she heard " get to **** out of here" - from the cpt. Sad but truth. Fortunatelly it was really experienced lady so the cabin crew knew what to do.
Other situation, an example of bad or even NO preflight briefing. On a WAW-JFK flight there was a bomb threat, that was disclosed short before landing. The crew were asked to prepare the cabin for prepared emergency landing. When the supervisor started to read the emergency PAs nobody knew where to stand in the cabin/the position to take during PAX briefing. Total mess.
Other situation, an example of bad or even NO preflight briefing. On a WAW-JFK flight there was a bomb threat, that was disclosed short before landing. The crew were asked to prepare the cabin for prepared emergency landing. When the supervisor started to read the emergency PAs nobody knew where to stand in the cabin/the position to take during PAX briefing. Total mess.
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Wow! I hadn't expected so many replies so soon!!
Thanks everyone for your information and sources - this will give me tons with which to work...
Re the 737 incident, I think I'm confusing two different events.. I think now one was a) involving Airtiurs and b) the other was Kegworth (if that is the one in which they ended up near the Motorway??) Anyway I shall look up both.
I can't believe QF1 didn't occur to me - it is a pet subject of one of our lecturers (whose main interest is human factors and so forth). I guess mainly I had been looking at that incident from a FD perspective...
This also ties in well with the whole subject of procedures and automation.... how much is too much before crew become over-reliant on SOPs or automation (e.g. crew following an SOP in emerg situation even if it doesn't make sense.... )
Top job, all!! Very much appreciated!!!!
Will let you know what I come up with...!
(Just gotta get up the nerve for the speech part.......)
Thanks everyone for your information and sources - this will give me tons with which to work...
Re the 737 incident, I think I'm confusing two different events.. I think now one was a) involving Airtiurs and b) the other was Kegworth (if that is the one in which they ended up near the Motorway??) Anyway I shall look up both.
I can't believe QF1 didn't occur to me - it is a pet subject of one of our lecturers (whose main interest is human factors and so forth). I guess mainly I had been looking at that incident from a FD perspective...
This also ties in well with the whole subject of procedures and automation.... how much is too much before crew become over-reliant on SOPs or automation (e.g. crew following an SOP in emerg situation even if it doesn't make sense.... )
Top job, all!! Very much appreciated!!!!
Will let you know what I come up with...!
(Just gotta get up the nerve for the speech part.......)
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(Just gotta get up the nerve for the speech part.......)
(Suggested served with ice and coke, or straight up if thats the way you like it!)
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Sinala, you're a darling, I'm sure that would do the trick... only problem I can see it might work too well! 
Hope flying is going well with you... are you back in Oz?? It's hard to keep track of everyone these days!!
Edit: I forgot to add, in my report I want to contrast the bad CRM with the example of the UAL232 crew (Al Haynes & co in Sioux City, '89) I need to know if it's true that afterward, many airline crews were tested and none got even close to the airfield in the sim... I have heard this many times but did not know if it was just a myth....
Hope flying is going well with you... are you back in Oz?? It's hard to keep track of everyone these days!!
Edit: I forgot to add, in my report I want to contrast the bad CRM with the example of the UAL232 crew (Al Haynes & co in Sioux City, '89) I need to know if it's true that afterward, many airline crews were tested and none got even close to the airfield in the sim... I have heard this many times but did not know if it was just a myth....
Last edited by SkySista; 11th Jun 2005 at 16:35.
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I was cabin crew on a B737 a few years back, as me & my colleagues were all standing down the back counting the bar money we all felt a little turbulence, so I looked out the window to see if we were going through clouds in our descent, and saw grass passing the window.
Yep. We had landed.
I did also hear of a colleague who in late descent had piled into the flight deck with the other crew to check out the view of her house, to save time she hit the button to play the pre-landing PA prior to going in, thinking the cabin would be ready to secure when they came out. Unfortunately on leaving the flight deck the crew looked up and stopped dead in their tracks. The entire cabin were dressed in their lifejackets. She'd hit the ditching PRA code by mistake. Ummmm ACARS for 150 replacement lifejackets please Captain.......
Yep. We had landed.
I did also hear of a colleague who in late descent had piled into the flight deck with the other crew to check out the view of her house, to save time she hit the button to play the pre-landing PA prior to going in, thinking the cabin would be ready to secure when they came out. Unfortunately on leaving the flight deck the crew looked up and stopped dead in their tracks. The entire cabin were dressed in their lifejackets. She'd hit the ditching PRA code by mistake. Ummmm ACARS for 150 replacement lifejackets please Captain.......
Last edited by sixmilehighclub; 12th Jun 2005 at 18:55.
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Thunder,
thanks for that link, an interesting event. That comment about the 5 minute delay is SCARY indeed!!!
The comments made by other crew wrt having Swissair 11 in mind... goes to show that at least it brought the issue to attention... sad that people had to die to do it though...
As for getting from FL390 to landing in 22 minutes - yowza!!! Would not want to guess how that would affect one's stomach!!
thanks for that link, an interesting event. That comment about the 5 minute delay is SCARY indeed!!!
The comments made by other crew wrt having Swissair 11 in mind... goes to show that at least it brought the issue to attention... sad that people had to die to do it though...
As for getting from FL390 to landing in 22 minutes - yowza!!! Would not want to guess how that would affect one's stomach!!
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Sixmilehigh
What became of the Flight Deck Crew on the flight that had landed whilst you were still standing at the aft? Surely there must be a procedure for cabin secure prior to landing - I guess this is another perfect (albeit bizarre, but could have been serious) example of how important CRM is!
What became of the Flight Deck Crew on the flight that had landed whilst you were still standing at the aft? Surely there must be a procedure for cabin secure prior to landing - I guess this is another perfect (albeit bizarre, but could have been serious) example of how important CRM is!
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SOPs were altered after the incident.
Up until then, no acknowledgement from the cabin was required by the flight deck prior to landing.
CSMs must now acknowledge via interphone call a "20 000ft prepare cabin PA" from flight deck.
Jettlager
P.S. The crew werent just standing down the back.
The CSM landed in a J/C [fwd cabin] passengers lap on landing.
Up until then, no acknowledgement from the cabin was required by the flight deck prior to landing.
CSMs must now acknowledge via interphone call a "20 000ft prepare cabin PA" from flight deck.
Jettlager
P.S. The crew werent just standing down the back.
The CSM landed in a J/C [fwd cabin] passengers lap on landing.
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The CSM landed in a J/C [fwd cabin] passengers lap on landing.
Seriously though, I wondered how the flight crew could 'forget' to get in touch with the CC prior t landing...
on another note.. is it acceptable for CC not to 'secure cabin' for landing because of turbulence?? Friends flew QF once and she said on landing some of the overheads flew open dumping bags etc out, apparently the CC had been told by the Capt. to sit down and so none of the 'before landing' stuff was done....