Malaysian Airlines wants a cabin crew ‘young and pretty’
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To Sultan Ismail and missleadfoot,
I agree with the majority of what you are saying about Malaysia, but please leave religion out of it.
"Downgrading of women" is not isolated to Islamic asian countries and is certainly not a teaching of Islam.
Missleadfoot, it is not wise to talk about things that you know nothing about. (leave that to the media)
Certainly there are some people who use their own interpretations to exploit certain parts of the religion for their own benefit, but blame them for that, not the religion.
I agree with the majority of what you are saying about Malaysia, but please leave religion out of it.
"Downgrading of women" is not isolated to Islamic asian countries and is certainly not a teaching of Islam.
Missleadfoot, it is not wise to talk about things that you know nothing about. (leave that to the media)
I am trying to keep religion out of this but given the fact that males used to be able to have 4 wives etc, surely this is another example of females being the subordinates, living in a culture where males rule.
I know there is a lot of racism in that country, towards females, mixed breeds and westerners, but apparently that is the way of the religion
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Blat and others- you're right on the money, I was tediously expecting a barage of PC replies especially from my raving liberal countrymen (Brits) and esp. on Prune.
To you PC self-deluded hermaphrodites-
I find complaints of the "injustice" of selecting stewardesses partly on the basis of looks "outrageous". Minorities have a greatly advantaged status in western societies, especially in aviation where any pilot with the guts and integrity to stand up can tell you they are frequently v.misguided choices for the front end. Regardless of profession, women frequently take advantage of their sexuality and the feeble minded men (devoid of any higher moral or ethical reasoning) they meet along the way to advance themselves, so don't make me laugh and talk of "disadvantaged" and "downtrodden" women.
The fact is that the two main things that determine airline choice are price and service- for most people outside of aviation, it's just a metal tube going from A to B. Most business travellers are men and there's absolutely no doubt that, though there may be older, enthusiastic, service dedicated stewardesses, they more frequently show themselves to be grumpy and job-worn. Besides that, most red blooded males would prefer to be served by a young attractive women-whether they have the ba11s, or you have the sense of reality to admit it not is another matter.
To you PC self-deluded hermaphrodites-
I find complaints of the "injustice" of selecting stewardesses partly on the basis of looks "outrageous". Minorities have a greatly advantaged status in western societies, especially in aviation where any pilot with the guts and integrity to stand up can tell you they are frequently v.misguided choices for the front end. Regardless of profession, women frequently take advantage of their sexuality and the feeble minded men (devoid of any higher moral or ethical reasoning) they meet along the way to advance themselves, so don't make me laugh and talk of "disadvantaged" and "downtrodden" women.
The fact is that the two main things that determine airline choice are price and service- for most people outside of aviation, it's just a metal tube going from A to B. Most business travellers are men and there's absolutely no doubt that, though there may be older, enthusiastic, service dedicated stewardesses, they more frequently show themselves to be grumpy and job-worn. Besides that, most red blooded males would prefer to be served by a young attractive women-whether they have the ba11s, or you have the sense of reality to admit it not is another matter.
Last edited by CAVU; 5th Oct 2003 at 00:01.
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Twiggs...,
I'm so sorry if I was out of line, when I get started on something it's hard to stop typing. I was only trying to say Malaysia is not the western world where many of us live and enjoy a discrimination free career. Malaysians live in a different culture than many of us do, and the decision by MAS to retire their female flight attendants at 40 is difficult for some of us to understand, given the fact that we aren't given the shove till we are too frail to open the door anymore. We have extremely wonderful working conditions in Australia and many other parts of the world. The type of retirement MAS have introduced is something many of us will never have to endure. I was only trying to explain the reasoning behind it and provide a little understanding as to how and why this can happen in Malaysia.
As far as the religion goes, I should never have brough it up, but again I was trying to provide a bit of understanding. I spent a lot of time growing up in Malaysia and do know a little bit about the culture. I remember when women couldn't work in offices or public places in certain areas of Malaysia without the scarf. I remember times especially on the north east coast where Moslem policies are enforced a bit tighter than anywhere else.
Many things have changed now but my point is I disagree with the decision made my MAS from an airline employee point of view, but it's a decision we have to accept. I love Malaysia and always will, but I also respect the culture, religion and politics of that country. So should everyone else, it's a great country, enjoy it.
I'm so sorry if I was out of line, when I get started on something it's hard to stop typing. I was only trying to say Malaysia is not the western world where many of us live and enjoy a discrimination free career. Malaysians live in a different culture than many of us do, and the decision by MAS to retire their female flight attendants at 40 is difficult for some of us to understand, given the fact that we aren't given the shove till we are too frail to open the door anymore. We have extremely wonderful working conditions in Australia and many other parts of the world. The type of retirement MAS have introduced is something many of us will never have to endure. I was only trying to explain the reasoning behind it and provide a little understanding as to how and why this can happen in Malaysia.
As far as the religion goes, I should never have brough it up, but again I was trying to provide a bit of understanding. I spent a lot of time growing up in Malaysia and do know a little bit about the culture. I remember when women couldn't work in offices or public places in certain areas of Malaysia without the scarf. I remember times especially on the north east coast where Moslem policies are enforced a bit tighter than anywhere else.
Many things have changed now but my point is I disagree with the decision made my MAS from an airline employee point of view, but it's a decision we have to accept. I love Malaysia and always will, but I also respect the culture, religion and politics of that country. So should everyone else, it's a great country, enjoy it.
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In modern, western societies, MAS would not be permitted to behave in this way: In that haven of liberal democracy, Malaysia, they are. MAS appear to be acting in a manner that is viewed as acceptable by a majority of people in that country - we might not like it, but it's their country, their culture, and also their responsibility to change these things if enough citizens don't like it. I'm surprised that anybody else is surprised?
If you disagree with this policy, you will naturally avoid giving your business to MAS as a protest, and consider writing to them to advise them why. If you agree with the policy, or enjoy masturbating over your mental images of Cabin Crew rather than communicating with them more normally as humans, then you will actively seek out MAS as your carrier of choice.
If you disagree with this policy, you will naturally avoid giving your business to MAS as a protest, and consider writing to them to advise them why. If you agree with the policy, or enjoy masturbating over your mental images of Cabin Crew rather than communicating with them more normally as humans, then you will actively seek out MAS as your carrier of choice.
Last edited by TightSlot; 7th Oct 2003 at 18:23.
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...tight fists
Blat, let's pretend you didn't write this post, and if you want re-write it without continually making reference to sex to make your point and without being disrespectful of other members, ok?
Flyblue
Dear Flyblue,
I thought my reply was quite succinctly put. Am I not allowed to defend myself? And if some agree with me, should they all be muted too?
"Continually referening to sex" ? Then why is tightslot's reference to masturbation allowed to remain posted? It's a gutter-based shot and a cheap one at that. My reply to that offensive statement employed irony to get the point across but obviously it was missed.
And "Disrespectful" ? Commenting on the masturbatory habits of others here is quite the depth of bad taste, one would have thought. I'm sure a lady would not stoop so low.
Seems one-sidedness in PPRuNe Moderation is no longer unexpected, having observed you call upon certain individuals for assistance and then note that the reply to the opinion of one in particular (tightslot) happens to be the reply being edited.
Or was it my gratuitous use of smilies...
blat
PS The question remains, tightslot, how would you know what anyone else uses? It certainly isn't you.
I'll happily remove that line MYSELF if tightslot grows up and edits his or hers.
Flyblue
Dear Flyblue,
I thought my reply was quite succinctly put. Am I not allowed to defend myself? And if some agree with me, should they all be muted too?
"Continually referening to sex" ? Then why is tightslot's reference to masturbation allowed to remain posted? It's a gutter-based shot and a cheap one at that. My reply to that offensive statement employed irony to get the point across but obviously it was missed.
And "Disrespectful" ? Commenting on the masturbatory habits of others here is quite the depth of bad taste, one would have thought. I'm sure a lady would not stoop so low.
Seems one-sidedness in PPRuNe Moderation is no longer unexpected, having observed you call upon certain individuals for assistance and then note that the reply to the opinion of one in particular (tightslot) happens to be the reply being edited.
Or was it my gratuitous use of smilies...
blat
PS The question remains, tightslot, how would you know what anyone else uses? It certainly isn't you.
I'll happily remove that line MYSELF if tightslot grows up and edits his or hers.
Last edited by blat; 7th Oct 2003 at 03:50.
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blattie dearest,
1) You are allowed to defend your opinion as anyone here, but you are not allowed to insult other members and be rude to them, whoever they are
2) I "called upon" certain members because their articulate posts often contribute to raising the level of a thread, and it doesn't imply me agreeing with him/her
3)tightslot's reference to masturbation is purely metaphoric, while yours was very crudely referred to his/her sexual habits (and this is is something that is not very polite in my book
)
play the ball not the player
1) You are allowed to defend your opinion as anyone here, but you are not allowed to insult other members and be rude to them, whoever they are
2) I "called upon" certain members because their articulate posts often contribute to raising the level of a thread, and it doesn't imply me agreeing with him/her
3)tightslot's reference to masturbation is purely metaphoric, while yours was very crudely referred to his/her sexual habits (and this is is something that is not very polite in my book
) play the ball not the player
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at risk of sounding unPC, if offered the choice between:
a) excellent service
or
b) excellent service AND gorgeous cabin crew
i choose b).
you show me a man who'd choose a) and i'll show you a liar.
MAS are evidently aware of this fact. and, presumably are legally allowed to (openly) select cabin crew on such a basis. don't necessarily think they should be allowed to but there's not a lot i can do about it.
Cheers,
Rod
a) excellent service
or
b) excellent service AND gorgeous cabin crew
i choose b).
you show me a man who'd choose a) and i'll show you a liar.
MAS are evidently aware of this fact. and, presumably are legally allowed to (openly) select cabin crew on such a basis. don't necessarily think they should be allowed to but there's not a lot i can do about it.
Cheers,
Rod
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What does it means, that everyone should be allowed to do whatever is good for their business regardless? If it was forbidden everywhere to discriminate F/A because of their sex/age, companies wouldn't be tempted to make more business at the expenses of women. And what should the F/A in question do once they are dismissed because of their age, go throw themselves in a dump? Starve their children because male pax would rather be served by a young pretty thing? Which I refute, btw, because 1)not all pax are men 2)believe it or not some pax are so dumb that they'd rather have a skilled F/A than a nice little thing with years of work before her prior to becoming a skilled F/A.
Have a look at the Manchester accident: the two who perished and were't able to make pax escape through their assigned exits were the most junior and inexperienced. One of them was seen standing in front of the open exit, through which no one was escaping. She couldn't escape either and was found dead in front of it. Unfortunately no one survived to tell us why, and what happened, but sure is that the senior F/A at the FWD doors managed to open the exits, one of which was jammed (and it was the one the CPT had specified to be opened, but since he couldn't get to open it immediately he took the chance to open the other one-and he did right!!) and most of the pax escaped through those exits.
Let me tell you something: even if it were true that pax only wanted young and pretty F/A, it doesn't mean it would be the wisest or the right thing to do. In the event of an accident, what you need is someone skilled enough to save your behind. In a crew there should be men and women, young and less young. Experience is gained even watching the senior work.
Anyway, that rule sounds to me rather hypocritical. Were it not, they should fire all the male F/A, who are really "offending on the eye" of those sex-maniacs MAS think are their pax.
Have a look at the Manchester accident: the two who perished and were't able to make pax escape through their assigned exits were the most junior and inexperienced. One of them was seen standing in front of the open exit, through which no one was escaping. She couldn't escape either and was found dead in front of it. Unfortunately no one survived to tell us why, and what happened, but sure is that the senior F/A at the FWD doors managed to open the exits, one of which was jammed (and it was the one the CPT had specified to be opened, but since he couldn't get to open it immediately he took the chance to open the other one-and he did right!!) and most of the pax escaped through those exits.
Let me tell you something: even if it were true that pax only wanted young and pretty F/A, it doesn't mean it would be the wisest or the right thing to do. In the event of an accident, what you need is someone skilled enough to save your behind. In a crew there should be men and women, young and less young. Experience is gained even watching the senior work.
Anyway, that rule sounds to me rather hypocritical. Were it not, they should fire all the male F/A, who are really "offending on the eye" of those sex-maniacs MAS think are their pax.
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If needing to evacuate an aircraft down the slides is something that there was even a 0.1% chance of ever happening to me then this might be a factor I would consider when choosing an airline.
But it isn't.
As an analogy, do you choose the restaurant where you eat dinner by the quality of the fire-fighting equipment? I suspect you don't, because the chances of you being in a fire in that restaurant are infinitesimal.
I trust the licensing authorities (be it for airlines or restaurants) to maintain a level of safety which means that the chances of being involved in an accident are so small that they are not a factor in my choice of restaurant or airline. (Except that I would avoid those airlines who, statistically have accident rates well above the industry norm: Korean, China Airlines, PIA, Garuda, etc.)
I then choose my restaurant or airline on the quality of the service it provides. This is a function of price, environment, food & drink and the servers who provide it. Fortunately, as I get older (& richer), price becomes less of an issue. In a restaurant the balance is, perhaps, 20% environment, 60% food&drink and 20% servers. On a long haul flight it is more like 40% environment, 30%food&drink, 30% servers. (I do more or less all of my flying these days in business or first, where the food and drink can be an experience to enjoy)
There are many elements to what constitues good service, but undoubtedly as a warm-blooded male, the attractiveness of the female cabin crew is a significant factor (and attractiveness in this context is about appearance and attitude more than intellect since this is a fleeting acquaintance not a long term relationship).
However, I don't think age per se is a good test of attractiveness - I was sat next to a very attractive lady on Concorde earlier this week who I was stunned to discover, as she filled in her immigration papers, was 70 years old - I thought from her appearance and demeanour that she was in her early 50s.
Nonetheless, in general there is some correlation between age and attractiveness, and I can't think of a better objective test. Clearly if, for example, a crew member gets letters of praise from passengers every week then this should override any other consideration.
It is undoubtedly true that a much larger proportion of older cabin crew have attitudes which are unattractive to passengers, particularly on US-based carriers - I don't really understand why, guess it is just a function of boredom with the job. Strangely, on BA I find the male cabin crew to have, on average, a much more attractive attitude than the female cabin crew, regardless of age.
By the way, just out of curiosity, could one of the cabin crew here give me some indication of how common personal commendations from passengers actually are? Is it a major event if you get one, or can a reasonably good crew member expect to get quite a few during their career?
[Apologies for the length of that ramble
]
But it isn't.
As an analogy, do you choose the restaurant where you eat dinner by the quality of the fire-fighting equipment? I suspect you don't, because the chances of you being in a fire in that restaurant are infinitesimal.
I trust the licensing authorities (be it for airlines or restaurants) to maintain a level of safety which means that the chances of being involved in an accident are so small that they are not a factor in my choice of restaurant or airline. (Except that I would avoid those airlines who, statistically have accident rates well above the industry norm: Korean, China Airlines, PIA, Garuda, etc.)
I then choose my restaurant or airline on the quality of the service it provides. This is a function of price, environment, food & drink and the servers who provide it. Fortunately, as I get older (& richer), price becomes less of an issue. In a restaurant the balance is, perhaps, 20% environment, 60% food&drink and 20% servers. On a long haul flight it is more like 40% environment, 30%food&drink, 30% servers. (I do more or less all of my flying these days in business or first, where the food and drink can be an experience to enjoy)
There are many elements to what constitues good service, but undoubtedly as a warm-blooded male, the attractiveness of the female cabin crew is a significant factor (and attractiveness in this context is about appearance and attitude more than intellect since this is a fleeting acquaintance not a long term relationship).
However, I don't think age per se is a good test of attractiveness - I was sat next to a very attractive lady on Concorde earlier this week who I was stunned to discover, as she filled in her immigration papers, was 70 years old - I thought from her appearance and demeanour that she was in her early 50s.
Nonetheless, in general there is some correlation between age and attractiveness, and I can't think of a better objective test. Clearly if, for example, a crew member gets letters of praise from passengers every week then this should override any other consideration.
It is undoubtedly true that a much larger proportion of older cabin crew have attitudes which are unattractive to passengers, particularly on US-based carriers - I don't really understand why, guess it is just a function of boredom with the job. Strangely, on BA I find the male cabin crew to have, on average, a much more attractive attitude than the female cabin crew, regardless of age.
By the way, just out of curiosity, could one of the cabin crew here give me some indication of how common personal commendations from passengers actually are? Is it a major event if you get one, or can a reasonably good crew member expect to get quite a few during their career?
[Apologies for the length of that ramble
]
