Qantaslink Progression Rumours or not???
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Well guys my idea may be quite simplistic, and am open to replies if you think it is crap, but I see no reason why QF have to recruit externally into shorthaul and longhaul at all.
Rather than be languishing in the regionals for years on end as the case seems to be now, QF should only be recruiting externally into the regionals, ie. Eastern, Sunstate and Impulse. Regional crew then progress onto short or longhaul, whatever their choice may be, after a period of two years or so.
Recruitment can then be handled by one dept alone, instead of all the regionals and qantas doing their own thing and wasting god knows how much money between them. Your time in the regionals would be similar to an "apprentiship" as we all know how much experience a regional FA gains. As for loosing experienced crew too quickly from the regionals (eg for check and training FA's) for those crew who may want to stay for personal reasons, pay them accordingly to remain as checkies.
The outcome of course would be that Link crew are kept happy. New recruits start in the regionals gaining valuable experience for when they progress. Link crew could easily survive on the crap wages if you knew it would only be for two years. And QF saves vast amounts of money by only one dept handling all FA recruitment into the regionals, now that should keep the bean counters happy!
Sound too simplistic?
Rather than be languishing in the regionals for years on end as the case seems to be now, QF should only be recruiting externally into the regionals, ie. Eastern, Sunstate and Impulse. Regional crew then progress onto short or longhaul, whatever their choice may be, after a period of two years or so.
Recruitment can then be handled by one dept alone, instead of all the regionals and qantas doing their own thing and wasting god knows how much money between them. Your time in the regionals would be similar to an "apprentiship" as we all know how much experience a regional FA gains. As for loosing experienced crew too quickly from the regionals (eg for check and training FA's) for those crew who may want to stay for personal reasons, pay them accordingly to remain as checkies.
The outcome of course would be that Link crew are kept happy. New recruits start in the regionals gaining valuable experience for when they progress. Link crew could easily survive on the crap wages if you knew it would only be for two years. And QF saves vast amounts of money by only one dept handling all FA recruitment into the regionals, now that should keep the bean counters happy!
Sound too simplistic?
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Time will tell.......
Well guys,
Clearly only time will tell as to whether shortlisters will be placed into fulltime permanent mainline possies before ppl waiting for progression or vice versa.......any ideas from those in the know??
Hhhhmmmmmmmm.........
Clearly only time will tell as to whether shortlisters will be placed into fulltime permanent mainline possies before ppl waiting for progression or vice versa.......any ideas from those in the know??
Hhhhmmmmmmmm.........
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This is why I don't post much anymore !!!!
You don't think there is a differance, then you are dreaming.
Yes the same standards do apply from interview to final selection stage. But then the final approval and corperate ok is differant.
I can swear on a stack of bibles that mainline do have a higher final approval.
Eastern management have final say in there f/a appointments.
Impulse have a final say in the f/a appointment there aswell.
Each have a profile at the final stage that is suited to the type of flying and job. We look for a slightly differant profile.
I've been around a while so I think I know a few things about how we select crew.
I've been recruiting for almost 4 years and have given many tips and infomation on this forum that I think I have some credability.
If it offends you then I don't mean to as I'am just telling you the truth.
Untill Feb 2000 we didn't even have the same height restrictions in Eastern so people under the limit in mainline would apply at Eastern and work there way to mainline. For example little Jenny, everybody who fly's s/h SYD knows who I mean.
Each division has there own recruitment style and team. If it was all the same then why not recruit everybody into one big holding tank and offer as each area requires crew.
How many people from link try mainline then get into impulse or eastern ? Really be truthful, they get that little edge and skill and come back and nail it next time or the time after.
Don't be offended, it's not personal just the truth, I didn't say you were less hard working or not as good at your job. Sorry if it's a bitter pill, happy to talk in private message if you wish.
Ask Miss Floaty or Nic from MEL, sky princess or any of the other people I have helped over the time with advice.
Not a personal attack, just some facts.
And yes there is a much higher standard in P and J class.
Eastcoaster, right on
Thank god someone else thinks like me.
You know I've been saying that for the last 4 years but was told we have a differant standard mainline to regionals. But don't say that here people will jump on you.
My master plan was to start everybody in regionals after 2001 and progress everybody to mainline with an excellent understanding of solo flying to pax management. But it gets rubbished everytime I suggest it.
Yes the same standards do apply from interview to final selection stage. But then the final approval and corperate ok is differant.
I can swear on a stack of bibles that mainline do have a higher final approval.
Eastern management have final say in there f/a appointments.
Impulse have a final say in the f/a appointment there aswell.
Each have a profile at the final stage that is suited to the type of flying and job. We look for a slightly differant profile.
I've been around a while so I think I know a few things about how we select crew.
I've been recruiting for almost 4 years and have given many tips and infomation on this forum that I think I have some credability.
If it offends you then I don't mean to as I'am just telling you the truth.
Untill Feb 2000 we didn't even have the same height restrictions in Eastern so people under the limit in mainline would apply at Eastern and work there way to mainline. For example little Jenny, everybody who fly's s/h SYD knows who I mean.
Each division has there own recruitment style and team. If it was all the same then why not recruit everybody into one big holding tank and offer as each area requires crew.
How many people from link try mainline then get into impulse or eastern ? Really be truthful, they get that little edge and skill and come back and nail it next time or the time after.
Don't be offended, it's not personal just the truth, I didn't say you were less hard working or not as good at your job. Sorry if it's a bitter pill, happy to talk in private message if you wish.
Ask Miss Floaty or Nic from MEL, sky princess or any of the other people I have helped over the time with advice.
Not a personal attack, just some facts.
And yes there is a much higher standard in P and J class.
Eastcoaster, right on
Thank god someone else thinks like me.
You know I've been saying that for the last 4 years but was told we have a differant standard mainline to regionals. But don't say that here people will jump on you.
My master plan was to start everybody in regionals after 2001 and progress everybody to mainline with an excellent understanding of solo flying to pax management. But it gets rubbished everytime I suggest it.
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Peanut Pusher...
I agree with some of what you are saying but I must disagree on one point. Again I don't want to start a Link/Mainline battle. Just a point of view.
You are saying that mainline FAs are recruited to a different profile. That's right. DIFFERENT. No better or worse. Using your theory a passenger flying SYD-OOL on an all Y 737 has different needs to a pax on a 717. Needs that only a mainline FA (profile) can fufill. Is that what you are saying?
Have you ever paxed on a 717? Compare the service on a PM SYD-OOL 717 to that of the service on a 733. You will see what I mean. You may also find a greater service culture and willingness amongst FAs who have it forced upon them.
Please note. I am NOT having a go at FAs as service levels / procedures are dictated by each company. Just trying to highlight that things which are different are not necessarily better or worse. I guess my point is at Link FAs are forced to practice service more. Whether it be through 7 sector days on a Dash or offering bar AND hot drinks on 42 minute (or LESS) MEL-LST 717 flight. Link FAs have a certain culture forced upon them. Therefore there IS a greater service culture and willingess to exceed at Link. I would assume Short Haul would welcome such attitudes with open arms.
Also I think the 'want' you describe for Dash flighties to get into mainline is more financial than anything else. I bet that the percentage of FAs at Impulse 'desperate' to get into Short Haul is FAR less than at Eastern and Sunnies.
Just my P O V guys.
I agree with some of what you are saying but I must disagree on one point. Again I don't want to start a Link/Mainline battle. Just a point of view.
You are saying that mainline FAs are recruited to a different profile. That's right. DIFFERENT. No better or worse. Using your theory a passenger flying SYD-OOL on an all Y 737 has different needs to a pax on a 717. Needs that only a mainline FA (profile) can fufill. Is that what you are saying?
Have you ever paxed on a 717? Compare the service on a PM SYD-OOL 717 to that of the service on a 733. You will see what I mean. You may also find a greater service culture and willingness amongst FAs who have it forced upon them.
Please note. I am NOT having a go at FAs as service levels / procedures are dictated by each company. Just trying to highlight that things which are different are not necessarily better or worse. I guess my point is at Link FAs are forced to practice service more. Whether it be through 7 sector days on a Dash or offering bar AND hot drinks on 42 minute (or LESS) MEL-LST 717 flight. Link FAs have a certain culture forced upon them. Therefore there IS a greater service culture and willingess to exceed at Link. I would assume Short Haul would welcome such attitudes with open arms.
Also I think the 'want' you describe for Dash flighties to get into mainline is more financial than anything else. I bet that the percentage of FAs at Impulse 'desperate' to get into Short Haul is FAR less than at Eastern and Sunnies.
Just my P O V guys.
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Peanut Pusher...
"I can swear on a stack of bibles that mainline do have a higher final approval."
By higher I presume you mean 'different' - at least I hope for your sake that's what you mean...
Of course each division has it's say on who it employs, but your implication (from this line) says to me that mainline have higher standards...that's the way it's interpreted at least, I can assure you.
"Untill Feb 2000 we didn't even have the same height restrictions in Eastern so people under the limit in mainline would apply at Eastern and work there way to mainline."
If the system is there to exploit, of course it will be. However, as you have mentioned, your height restriction was applied from Qantas to prevent this from occurring, and truth be told, the present QF height restrictions are a pile of rubbish. OH&S? Be serious - there were AN crew operating as CM's on 767's at less than 163 cm FOR DECADES, with equipment locations very similar to QF's. But that's another thread...onto my continued rant...
The remainder of your post implies that people apply to Link after being rejected from mainline - as a matter of fact PP, most of these crew applied to Link because in the ABSENCE of any recruitment from Short Haul these were the only airlines hiring. Further, I don't know of all that many Link Crew who apply to mainline once employed by the Link due to the fact that:
a) they're happy where they are (eh, Ditzy?!)
b) or they're happy to wait their turn on Career Progression
Those who apply to mainline whilst employed by a Regional with Career Progression aren't given any more of a chance over those who come in from the street - which is why the majority are happy to wait their turn on CP and not have to go through another arduous and expensive interview process (medicals and security check at a total of $180 only to be told NO? YEAH - which Link Chick has the money for that at $27,000 p.a.) At least with CP they go with their years of service and seniority, and without the harrowing experience of another set of interviews.
As for the Impulse kids, they were taken over by QF. A percentage of them have never applied to QF during the course of their flying! Not all view Mainline as the holy grail.
For P and J class, I can appreciate a separate group of crew - but I wasn't even referring to P and J class. And since Regionals only progress into Short Haul, where J class is up for grabs with each duty by everyone, I don't understand what 'higher standard' you are referring to? All mainline crew (at least in Short Haul) are trained to the same standard...and in Long Haul, there would be those odd occasions when Main Cabin FA's would need to operate out of category and be in J class. BusinessFirst, at the very least, provides the 'polish' to meal presentation, etc. but at the end of the day, top level service can only be borne by company culture - something which a majority of the Regional Cabin Crew can happily say they do with some level of ease (thank you for your last post Ditz). All the training in the world can't cover up a poor work ethic PP.
"Don't be offended, it's not personal just the truth, I didn't say you were less hard working or not as good at your job. Sorry if it's a bitter pill.."
You implied it PP. I never said you intended to mean it this way, but it is implied without your realising it. And no bitter pill has been swallowed at my end - I know how capable I am at my job, as does everyone else I work with.
If you need to refer to what I'm saying, read the first highlighted point in this point.
I don't think I'm getting my knickers into a knot over nothing - this is a situation that has been endemic for some time. This perception within mainline that Regional crew are somewhat 'lesser mortals' because we're not 'Qantas', and that we don't have the same 'higher standards' as QF. Last time I looked, I had a Qantas ID, was in a QF uniform and had QF staff travel benefits. I have a Cert II from QF College, deal with QF Freq Flyers every day, and serve QF branded food. I have an all economy cabin just like the 733's at QF.
Higher standard? We're better than that - we have a different standard!
Oh and PP - I second Ditzy's post. If you offered Eastern/Sunnies guys the same money as Short Haul - I don't think many (if any?) would leave. Just think - the whole cabin to yourself at $40,000 a year! CSM and FA all in one!
And as for Short Haul greeting Regional crew with open arms - look at the percentage of those who have gone thru on CP who are now CSM's...quite a large chunk if you look closely.
No personal attack felt at my end! Just as I would expect you to feel likewise PP.
OH Eastcoasting - and PP (contrary to what you may think of my perception of EC's idea) - I REALLY like your idea. Might help to filter out the deadwood before they get onto a jet in the first place! As a matter of fact, how about we revolve them around every 6 months into each division and see how long the deadwood last before leaving and making way for eager to please crew...now that WOULD BE SOMETHING TO SEE!
"I can swear on a stack of bibles that mainline do have a higher final approval."
By higher I presume you mean 'different' - at least I hope for your sake that's what you mean...
Of course each division has it's say on who it employs, but your implication (from this line) says to me that mainline have higher standards...that's the way it's interpreted at least, I can assure you.
"Untill Feb 2000 we didn't even have the same height restrictions in Eastern so people under the limit in mainline would apply at Eastern and work there way to mainline."
If the system is there to exploit, of course it will be. However, as you have mentioned, your height restriction was applied from Qantas to prevent this from occurring, and truth be told, the present QF height restrictions are a pile of rubbish. OH&S? Be serious - there were AN crew operating as CM's on 767's at less than 163 cm FOR DECADES, with equipment locations very similar to QF's. But that's another thread...onto my continued rant...
The remainder of your post implies that people apply to Link after being rejected from mainline - as a matter of fact PP, most of these crew applied to Link because in the ABSENCE of any recruitment from Short Haul these were the only airlines hiring. Further, I don't know of all that many Link Crew who apply to mainline once employed by the Link due to the fact that:
a) they're happy where they are (eh, Ditzy?!)
b) or they're happy to wait their turn on Career Progression
Those who apply to mainline whilst employed by a Regional with Career Progression aren't given any more of a chance over those who come in from the street - which is why the majority are happy to wait their turn on CP and not have to go through another arduous and expensive interview process (medicals and security check at a total of $180 only to be told NO? YEAH - which Link Chick has the money for that at $27,000 p.a.) At least with CP they go with their years of service and seniority, and without the harrowing experience of another set of interviews.
As for the Impulse kids, they were taken over by QF. A percentage of them have never applied to QF during the course of their flying! Not all view Mainline as the holy grail.
For P and J class, I can appreciate a separate group of crew - but I wasn't even referring to P and J class. And since Regionals only progress into Short Haul, where J class is up for grabs with each duty by everyone, I don't understand what 'higher standard' you are referring to? All mainline crew (at least in Short Haul) are trained to the same standard...and in Long Haul, there would be those odd occasions when Main Cabin FA's would need to operate out of category and be in J class. BusinessFirst, at the very least, provides the 'polish' to meal presentation, etc. but at the end of the day, top level service can only be borne by company culture - something which a majority of the Regional Cabin Crew can happily say they do with some level of ease (thank you for your last post Ditz). All the training in the world can't cover up a poor work ethic PP.
"Don't be offended, it's not personal just the truth, I didn't say you were less hard working or not as good at your job. Sorry if it's a bitter pill.."
You implied it PP. I never said you intended to mean it this way, but it is implied without your realising it. And no bitter pill has been swallowed at my end - I know how capable I am at my job, as does everyone else I work with.
If you need to refer to what I'm saying, read the first highlighted point in this point.
I don't think I'm getting my knickers into a knot over nothing - this is a situation that has been endemic for some time. This perception within mainline that Regional crew are somewhat 'lesser mortals' because we're not 'Qantas', and that we don't have the same 'higher standards' as QF. Last time I looked, I had a Qantas ID, was in a QF uniform and had QF staff travel benefits. I have a Cert II from QF College, deal with QF Freq Flyers every day, and serve QF branded food. I have an all economy cabin just like the 733's at QF.
Higher standard? We're better than that - we have a different standard!
Oh and PP - I second Ditzy's post. If you offered Eastern/Sunnies guys the same money as Short Haul - I don't think many (if any?) would leave. Just think - the whole cabin to yourself at $40,000 a year! CSM and FA all in one!
And as for Short Haul greeting Regional crew with open arms - look at the percentage of those who have gone thru on CP who are now CSM's...quite a large chunk if you look closely.
No personal attack felt at my end! Just as I would expect you to feel likewise PP.
OH Eastcoasting - and PP (contrary to what you may think of my perception of EC's idea) - I REALLY like your idea. Might help to filter out the deadwood before they get onto a jet in the first place! As a matter of fact, how about we revolve them around every 6 months into each division and see how long the deadwood last before leaving and making way for eager to please crew...now that WOULD BE SOMETHING TO SEE!
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Mr Seatback
You have a nouse for logic mate, and I applaud it.
The one thing you dont factor in is EBAs in mainline.
Regional progression does in no way affect transfers between long and short haul. We have our own agreements between the divisions for long to short (and vice-versa) transfers, and that is 50 transfers will be guaranteed between both divisions (ie 50 from short to long, and 50 from long to short) each financial year.
The numbers of transfers are not affected by regional progression, external recruitment etc
So therefore, as I said, I cannot see any benefit to long haul crew by allowing regional crew progression directly into long haul.
And yes - that is long haul crew looking after long haul crew - that is what an EBA is about, looking after what you have. Yes it may seem harsh to people outside it, but why would crew agree to something that has no benefit to them?
Eastcoasting
Yes again, your logic is good, yet most regional cabin crew do not have the levels of language requirements that QF has asked for over the last couple of longhaul recruitments (bar the Dec '02 recruitment). Should QF just give up their requirement for foreign language- speaking crew?
And think about it ..... QF are out to make money, if they recruit only from wholly owned subsidiaries, then they have to pay for the training of crew into the regionals. Then pay for the training of those crew to cross into mainline...... thats paying for two lots of training (4-6 weeks + accommodation allowances during training etc) .
When to hire people 'off the street', they only have to pay for one lot of training, one lot of uniforms etc ...... never underestimate the power of the $ at QF
If you havent worked in head office, you would not understand exactly how every action is costed to the letter.
PeanutPusher is dead right
It isnt only the final decision that is different, it is the actual recruitment which changes the standards between the regional recruitments and mainline..... last year when we adverstised for a 'general recruitment' we had over 13,000 applicants. No regional would get that number, so the recruitment dynamics change.
Not necessarily better applicants, but the sheer number of applicants means that the competition for the few positions is a lot more fierce, so therefore the outcome can be a lot different than for a smaller company.
Again, not necessairly better applicants, or higher standards, but they have a hell of a lot more people to choose from !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wont get into the 'mainline vs regional' debate, I pax both on mainline and regional on a regular basis, as I have family in Tassie.
I have seen great crew on both, and have seen some 'shockers' on both - and that's the truth!
Before bagging mainline crew, remember that there are over 6,500 of us...... the larger the number, the more likely you are to get bad crew...... no recruitment process is perfect.
And some of the 'old ducks' I work with, are the best crew I have ever worked with - they know what they are doing, get it done efficiently, and do it with a style, grace and charm that wins every pax over .... and even with a few years under my belt, no - I am not one of the 'old ducks', I am still proud to say I am under 30 
Happy flying
If the CP arrangement was opened up, and Regional crew went straight to Long Haul (as is the case, because most of them want to take that road in Impulse), it would mean LESS Regional crew going to Short Haul - thus leaving more slots for Long Haul to transfer INTO Short Haul. Honour the increased numbers as they stand now, give Regional Crew the option of either Short Haul or Long Haul (one or the other) and progress from there...
You have a nouse for logic mate, and I applaud it.
The one thing you dont factor in is EBAs in mainline.
Regional progression does in no way affect transfers between long and short haul. We have our own agreements between the divisions for long to short (and vice-versa) transfers, and that is 50 transfers will be guaranteed between both divisions (ie 50 from short to long, and 50 from long to short) each financial year.
The numbers of transfers are not affected by regional progression, external recruitment etc
So therefore, as I said, I cannot see any benefit to long haul crew by allowing regional crew progression directly into long haul.
And yes - that is long haul crew looking after long haul crew - that is what an EBA is about, looking after what you have. Yes it may seem harsh to people outside it, but why would crew agree to something that has no benefit to them?
Eastcoasting
Rather than be languishing in the regionals for years on end as the case seems to be now, QF should only be recruiting externally into the regionals, ie. Eastern, Sunstate and Impulse. Regional crew then progress onto short or longhaul, whatever their choice may be, after a period of two years or so.
Yes again, your logic is good, yet most regional cabin crew do not have the levels of language requirements that QF has asked for over the last couple of longhaul recruitments (bar the Dec '02 recruitment). Should QF just give up their requirement for foreign language- speaking crew?
And think about it ..... QF are out to make money, if they recruit only from wholly owned subsidiaries, then they have to pay for the training of crew into the regionals. Then pay for the training of those crew to cross into mainline...... thats paying for two lots of training (4-6 weeks + accommodation allowances during training etc) .
When to hire people 'off the street', they only have to pay for one lot of training, one lot of uniforms etc ...... never underestimate the power of the $ at QF
If you havent worked in head office, you would not understand exactly how every action is costed to the letter.PeanutPusher is dead right
Yes the same standards do apply from interview to final selection stage. But then the final approval and corperate ok is differant.
It isnt only the final decision that is different, it is the actual recruitment which changes the standards between the regional recruitments and mainline..... last year when we adverstised for a 'general recruitment' we had over 13,000 applicants. No regional would get that number, so the recruitment dynamics change.
Not necessarily better applicants, but the sheer number of applicants means that the competition for the few positions is a lot more fierce, so therefore the outcome can be a lot different than for a smaller company.
Again, not necessairly better applicants, or higher standards, but they have a hell of a lot more people to choose from !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wont get into the 'mainline vs regional' debate, I pax both on mainline and regional on a regular basis, as I have family in Tassie.
I have seen great crew on both, and have seen some 'shockers' on both - and that's the truth!
Before bagging mainline crew, remember that there are over 6,500 of us...... the larger the number, the more likely you are to get bad crew...... no recruitment process is perfect.
And some of the 'old ducks' I work with, are the best crew I have ever worked with - they know what they are doing, get it done efficiently, and do it with a style, grace and charm that wins every pax over
.... and even with a few years under my belt, no - I am not one of the 'old ducks', I am still proud to say I am under 30 Happy flying
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Mr Seatback 2 & QF Sky walker re read my posts
Never once did I say make a personal attack on any regional f/a's.
Everybody knows how hard you work for little money and the hours etc. Please re read my two posts and leave the emotion out of it and see they are general statements about opions and what about 6000 mainline crew talk about.
I made a series of general comments that are well informed by facts and you guys take it personal.
I really couldn't give a dam, just thought you mite appresiate some information.
Read some of the info upperdeckright has included, on this thread.
(thanks upperdeck for the support and all the other members who have private messaged me)
Yes the standards of applicants are higher and mainline selection standards are higher, like it or not. When you get 19000 applicants (Oct 99 recruitment) you have a higher selection pool of people with perfect profiles to choose from so the standard gets higher.
You say many CSM's are ex eastern, wrong there are 4 only including Paul S etc.
One thing I know is the recruiting processes we use, I've just completed "target selection part 3" this is the course all recruitment staff must complete at Qantas.
There is notable differances in mainline target selection profiles, but you know more than me.
Re read your rants about smiling and wearing uniforms OHS issues etc and you'll laugh when you come mainline, "birds of a feather flock together", guess who fit right into the slacking with uniforms and attitude. Yes you guessed it, it rubs off on ex regionals aswell.
The funny thing is my girlfriend is a eastern f/a who joined eastern 3 years ago because she thought she was a little underdone to try against the 10,000 + when we recruited in April 2001.
It was a smart move and she now got her flying legs and is much more confident.
We all work together for the same goal, I really couldn't give a dam, just tried to supply you some factual info on how things are looked out from the other side.
I still can't believe you shoot the messanger, It's like you think I personally have a grudge against regional crew, I can see you now with the veins in your head about to pop like I'am Mr Dixon and I'am holding you back from your dream.
Seat Back 2 is this a threat ?
Quote: By higher I presume you mean 'different' - at least I hope for your sake that's what you mean...
For everybody sake when I refer to the words higher standard, it's the selection score recieved by an applicant through the whole selection process. Each recruitment team from whom ever have a minimal score for final selection, mainline has 91%, which is the highest of all recruiting area's. Promise 1000 times
Everybody knows how hard you work for little money and the hours etc. Please re read my two posts and leave the emotion out of it and see they are general statements about opions and what about 6000 mainline crew talk about.
I made a series of general comments that are well informed by facts and you guys take it personal.
I really couldn't give a dam, just thought you mite appresiate some information.
Read some of the info upperdeckright has included, on this thread.
(thanks upperdeck for the support and all the other members who have private messaged me)
Yes the standards of applicants are higher and mainline selection standards are higher, like it or not. When you get 19000 applicants (Oct 99 recruitment) you have a higher selection pool of people with perfect profiles to choose from so the standard gets higher.
You say many CSM's are ex eastern, wrong there are 4 only including Paul S etc.
One thing I know is the recruiting processes we use, I've just completed "target selection part 3" this is the course all recruitment staff must complete at Qantas.
There is notable differances in mainline target selection profiles, but you know more than me.
Re read your rants about smiling and wearing uniforms OHS issues etc and you'll laugh when you come mainline, "birds of a feather flock together", guess who fit right into the slacking with uniforms and attitude. Yes you guessed it, it rubs off on ex regionals aswell.
The funny thing is my girlfriend is a eastern f/a who joined eastern 3 years ago because she thought she was a little underdone to try against the 10,000 + when we recruited in April 2001.
It was a smart move and she now got her flying legs and is much more confident.
We all work together for the same goal, I really couldn't give a dam, just tried to supply you some factual info on how things are looked out from the other side.
I still can't believe you shoot the messanger, It's like you think I personally have a grudge against regional crew, I can see you now with the veins in your head about to pop like I'am Mr Dixon and I'am holding you back from your dream.
Seat Back 2 is this a threat ?
Quote: By higher I presume you mean 'different' - at least I hope for your sake that's what you mean...
For everybody sake when I refer to the words higher standard, it's the selection score recieved by an applicant through the whole selection process. Each recruitment team from whom ever have a minimal score for final selection, mainline has 91%, which is the highest of all recruiting area's. Promise 1000 times
Last edited by peanut pusher; 10th Sep 2003 at 11:24.
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progressing higher?
Ok... I guess im impartial to this whole topic and I dont get to fly in crews but all too often people forget I'm even around. I see what the real crews are like and like to each other, I get to see and hear EVERYTHING and I have been able to compare different quality of services thoroughly from long haul to regional and I must say the differences are very interesting! I'm not trying to be very specific as there are always exceptions but there are high correlations of certain things with certain services. It has given me an insight on where I myself would like to progress to.
I really respect and appreciate the Q-link crew. You guys have always been so down to earth and friendly :-) (regional airlines are renowned for it). I'm not just talking about being friendly to me but I've seen it amongst you guys as a team and it makes me think alot about of where I would like to progress :-)
I'm not up in all the political agendas but from an outsiders point of view....I would think that if I was Qantas I would regard Q-link crew as a great source of developing disciplined crew for 'other' budget/long haul mainline services for crew who CHOOSE to take on a different challenge or perhaps just something different/change :-)
btw - Everyday I'm perservering and trying to keep my chin up but alot of these posts make it so much harder for me :-( I keep smiling and doing my best but more and more I just think I'm wasting my time, skills and my spinal chord! ....I sooo JUST want to progress and fly!
I really respect and appreciate the Q-link crew. You guys have always been so down to earth and friendly :-) (regional airlines are renowned for it). I'm not just talking about being friendly to me but I've seen it amongst you guys as a team and it makes me think alot about of where I would like to progress :-)
I'm not up in all the political agendas but from an outsiders point of view....I would think that if I was Qantas I would regard Q-link crew as a great source of developing disciplined crew for 'other' budget/long haul mainline services for crew who CHOOSE to take on a different challenge or perhaps just something different/change :-)
btw - Everyday I'm perservering and trying to keep my chin up but alot of these posts make it so much harder for me :-( I keep smiling and doing my best but more and more I just think I'm wasting my time, skills and my spinal chord! ....I sooo JUST want to progress and fly!
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quote from peanut pusher
I really couldn't give a dam, just tried to supply you some factual info on how things are looked out from the other side.
Another thing, don't forget that eastern is not the only regional operator in australia. Mr Seatback IS CORRECT. There are many CSM's operating on short haul who are ex eastern, sunstate and southern. You may know of only 4 yourself, however there is more. But what would I know ?
Peanut, we are not angry at all - just passionate. We appreciate your comments in this forum as it all helps to keep it interesting but your comments on what mainline think of "progression" were extremely hurtful.
Don't forget that we speak to Amy Chan and Janine also, your not the only one with management insight - we all have contacts and friends in high places. FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
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Use a quote in context
If you are going to use a quote use the whole sentance and the context of the paragraph.
I said I couldn't give a damn because I got a crap storm from you and your friend about something I know alot about.
This will be my final post on this website, I'am really sick of crap you cop when you put a differant side to the agenda forward.
It was just a observation of what people in mainline have said for years, it's not even a big deal. This thread as ended up as interesting as an Albury overnight.
Good bye, good luck, Power to the Regionals
I said I couldn't give a damn because I got a crap storm from you and your friend about something I know alot about.
This will be my final post on this website, I'am really sick of crap you cop when you put a differant side to the agenda forward.
It was just a observation of what people in mainline have said for years, it's not even a big deal. This thread as ended up as interesting as an Albury overnight.
Good bye, good luck, Power to the Regionals
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peanut pusher -
I really do not think either of the boys intended for you to leave the forum. Whether anyone agrees to them or not you have made many valid points. Also you "have helped over the time with advice", to use your own words. I agree. Please do not leave just because others share a different view. I guess when you have the Link Boys worked up about Career Progression there is bound to be a strong arguement from their side. I sincerely hope you can see the lighter side of this and accept the fact that both sides of this debate are not going to see eye to eye.
Peanut, I myself disagree with some of what you said but I value your opinion as a member of this forum and as someone who has some advice and knowledge to offer. You obviously enjoy reading/posting here and I would ask you to keep doing so.
Cheers.
UDR -
Agreed. I totally agree. Except I think that recruitment for mainline (Short Haul or Long Haul) could be made up of 50% progression and 50% external. That way BOTH the big Q AND Link could have both an experienced workforce that also has 'oustiders' coming in offering a fresh approach. What are your thoughts on that?
I really do not think either of the boys intended for you to leave the forum. Whether anyone agrees to them or not you have made many valid points. Also you "have helped over the time with advice", to use your own words. I agree. Please do not leave just because others share a different view. I guess when you have the Link Boys worked up about Career Progression there is bound to be a strong arguement from their side. I sincerely hope you can see the lighter side of this and accept the fact that both sides of this debate are not going to see eye to eye.
Peanut, I myself disagree with some of what you said but I value your opinion as a member of this forum and as someone who has some advice and knowledge to offer. You obviously enjoy reading/posting here and I would ask you to keep doing so.
Cheers.
UDR -
Agreed. I totally agree. Except I think that recruitment for mainline (Short Haul or Long Haul) could be made up of 50% progression and 50% external. That way BOTH the big Q AND Link could have both an experienced workforce that also has 'oustiders' coming in offering a fresh approach. What are your thoughts on that?
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I'd like to see a mainline crew do a full bar service, hot meal service and a tea/coffee service, with seconds, on a 55 min flight! Sorry had to throw that in there!!
The way mainline treat us as second class citizens really irritates me! I've lost count of the number of times i've walked past a mainline crew, while we're on our way out to aircraft, and been totally ignored complete with the quick turn the other way and pretend they're not even there, when they knew I said hello and waved to THEM. It'll be interesting to see what it's like when we're in the new uniform and it's difficult to tell the difference!
Peanut Pusher, sorry to hear you're not going to post anymore. Your information has always been welcomed. But you must understand that although your comments were well intended, the segregation is a sensitive topic for link chicks/boys simply due to the way we're treated and the mainline attitude of "we're better than you" etc.
In the end we are all in the same profession, mainline is no better than the link and vice versa. I work for the link that doesn't have progression, (or id90, or any benefits and crap wages ) so the whole progression debate doesn't even apply to me. However, we should all treat each other with respect and stick together, because the way things are now through the network and the industry as a whole, we may just be calling on each other for help.
luv ct
xx
Sorry had to throw that in there!!The way mainline treat us as second class citizens really irritates me! I've lost count of the number of times i've walked past a mainline crew, while we're on our way out to aircraft, and been totally ignored complete with the quick turn the other way and pretend they're not even there, when they knew I said hello and waved to THEM. It'll be interesting to see what it's like when we're in the new uniform and it's difficult to tell the difference!
Peanut Pusher, sorry to hear you're not going to post anymore. Your information has always been welcomed. But you must understand that although your comments were well intended, the segregation is a sensitive topic for link chicks/boys simply due to the way we're treated and the mainline attitude of "we're better than you" etc.
In the end we are all in the same profession, mainline is no better than the link and vice versa. I work for the link that doesn't have progression, (or id90, or any benefits and crap wages ) so the whole progression debate doesn't even apply to me. However, we should all treat each other with respect and stick together, because the way things are now through the network and the industry as a whole, we may just be calling on each other for help.
luv ct
xx
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Peanut Pusher
I second Ditzy's post - there is no reason to leave this forum.
I get the feeling you may be taking my responses (and that of my colleague in the Link) personally. DON'T! I sure as hell haven't!
Others have said the same thing, that myself and QFSkywalker are passionate about it - we don't presume to have all the answers, but as you have seen, we question anything that doesn't make sense to us and in many cases challenge those for answers - not reform, but answers relating to their responses.
And no threats have been made on my part PP - I've never seen or felt the need to turn this, or any other thread, into a 'handbags at 5 paces' scenario. My intention in the line you quoted was more to warn you away from making what would appear to be poorly worded statements relating to standards. QFSkywalker and myself are two vocal souls from the Link - there are many more, and it was a gentle caution to you not to stir the hornets nest any further.
As for the 'I'am really sick of crap you cop when you put a differant side to the agenda forward.' - what crap? Asking you to explain your views, the policies you refer to etc in more detail? You also say that you 'don't give a dam', and yet, it sounds like you're more upset about this than we are?!
Not that Link Chicks get upset - far too resilient for that.
Cart_tart: Love your work. And I SOOO know how you feel. It wasn't all that long ago that Impulse crew were contractors too...how's this for treatment?
a) Ground staff chasing senior crew through the terminal to LECTURE them on how to wear the uniform (Ground Staff! OF ALL PEOPLE!)
b) Being ignored by mainline crew (hearing you sister!) - we're not asking for a conversation, just a smile might be nice!
c) Using snide, immature remarks relating to who we work for as we enter the cabin: "Oh look, you're Impulse, you're down the back - I'm SURE you know where that is..." - Eh, Ditzy?
d) Having a CSM get very upset that our crew are in business class on a paxing duty, when there are commuting crew down the back...
Upper Deck Right: Love your work. Yes I am aware of the Divisional Agreements, etc etc. I just think the rigidity of the structure could be opened up more. Who knows - time will tell won't it! I feel that IF the agreements were opened up, there exists a chance to offer Long Haul more Short Haul slots, over and above the 50, and provide Regionals with a quicker means of accessing Long Haul (after the Short Haulers had their turn - don't want to rock the boat!)
I second Ditzy's post - there is no reason to leave this forum.
I get the feeling you may be taking my responses (and that of my colleague in the Link) personally. DON'T! I sure as hell haven't!
Others have said the same thing, that myself and QFSkywalker are passionate about it - we don't presume to have all the answers, but as you have seen, we question anything that doesn't make sense to us and in many cases challenge those for answers - not reform, but answers relating to their responses.
And no threats have been made on my part PP - I've never seen or felt the need to turn this, or any other thread, into a 'handbags at 5 paces' scenario. My intention in the line you quoted was more to warn you away from making what would appear to be poorly worded statements relating to standards. QFSkywalker and myself are two vocal souls from the Link - there are many more, and it was a gentle caution to you not to stir the hornets nest any further.
As for the 'I'am really sick of crap you cop when you put a differant side to the agenda forward.' - what crap? Asking you to explain your views, the policies you refer to etc in more detail? You also say that you 'don't give a dam', and yet, it sounds like you're more upset about this than we are?!
Not that Link Chicks get upset - far too resilient for that.
Cart_tart: Love your work. And I SOOO know how you feel. It wasn't all that long ago that Impulse crew were contractors too...how's this for treatment?
a) Ground staff chasing senior crew through the terminal to LECTURE them on how to wear the uniform (Ground Staff! OF ALL PEOPLE!)
b) Being ignored by mainline crew (hearing you sister!) - we're not asking for a conversation, just a smile might be nice!
c) Using snide, immature remarks relating to who we work for as we enter the cabin: "Oh look, you're Impulse, you're down the back - I'm SURE you know where that is..." - Eh, Ditzy?
d) Having a CSM get very upset that our crew are in business class on a paxing duty, when there are commuting crew down the back...
Upper Deck Right: Love your work. Yes I am aware of the Divisional Agreements, etc etc. I just think the rigidity of the structure could be opened up more. Who knows - time will tell won't it! I feel that IF the agreements were opened up, there exists a chance to offer Long Haul more Short Haul slots, over and above the 50, and provide Regionals with a quicker means of accessing Long Haul (after the Short Haulers had their turn - don't want to rock the boat!)
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Biscuit -
Well said. But you need to remember not all people in Link started to get into mainline. I started at Impulse in 2000 with the view of that helping me get into Ansett at some late stage... Why is it hindsight is always 20/20? Now that I am part of the QF 'family' (through want of a better word) I am using progression as a career goal for the future (say 6 or so years from now).
Also progressing is a reward for Dash boys and gals who endure not so ideal conditions. I am sure you would second that thought. Many at the Pulse view progression as "the next step".
My idea about 50% of an intake from regional (and 50% form outside) I think is fair for both parties. Upper Deck Right mentioned QF having to pay for two lots of training for Link progressing to Short Haul. That may be so but if the rate of progression doesn't get a bit more decent you will find these people jumping ship anyway. (To the likes of Virgin Atlantic, Monarch, Emirates, Qatar, Gulf etc...)
Seatback -
You are forgetting how a minority of FAs from ALL divisions treat ground staff! That is bound to create a rift between the two areas. I find a lot of ground staff a but stand-offish until you get chatting. Maybe they put up a barrier to guard against said attitude?
I find that if you say "G'Day" to anyone in the terminal they will smile or acknowledge. The only time I have not been acknowledged is if you just do the 'smile and nod' gesture. I have never been ignored if I actually say "hello". Some are uncomfortable with it for sure (makes me laugh!). Having said that I have seen plenty a Link chick ignore other FAs and have a superiority fit with ground staff. Usually young new FAs with a chip on their shoulder. Give 'em a trip with me. That'll knock it off.
I had forgotten about that J class thing! Maybe I am just above that. Really that guy was SO out of line. What he and the bird up the front with him did was just immature and rude. I really should have reported them. They are just two sad people in a huge organisation. Won't lose any sleep over it.
Well said. But you need to remember not all people in Link started to get into mainline. I started at Impulse in 2000 with the view of that helping me get into Ansett at some late stage... Why is it hindsight is always 20/20?
Now that I am part of the QF 'family' (through want of a better word) I am using progression as a career goal for the future (say 6 or so years from now). Also progressing is a reward for Dash boys and gals who endure not so ideal conditions. I am sure you would second that thought. Many at the Pulse view progression as "the next step".
My idea about 50% of an intake from regional (and 50% form outside) I think is fair for both parties. Upper Deck Right mentioned QF having to pay for two lots of training for Link progressing to Short Haul. That may be so but if the rate of progression doesn't get a bit more decent you will find these people jumping ship anyway. (To the likes of Virgin Atlantic, Monarch, Emirates, Qatar, Gulf etc...)
Seatback -
You are forgetting how a minority of FAs from ALL divisions treat ground staff! That is bound to create a rift between the two areas. I find a lot of ground staff a but stand-offish until you get chatting. Maybe they put up a barrier to guard against said attitude?
I find that if you say "G'Day" to anyone in the terminal they will smile or acknowledge. The only time I have not been acknowledged is if you just do the 'smile and nod' gesture. I have never been ignored if I actually say "hello". Some are uncomfortable with it for sure (makes me laugh!). Having said that I have seen plenty a Link chick ignore other FAs and have a superiority fit with ground staff. Usually young new FAs with a chip on their shoulder. Give 'em a trip with me. That'll knock it off.
I had forgotten about that J class thing! Maybe I am just above that. Really that guy was SO out of line. What he and the bird up the front with him did was just immature and rude. I really should have reported them. They are just two sad people in a huge organisation. Won't lose any sleep over it.
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Ditzy! Touché my dear friend...so true!
I NEVER knew you had designs on joining Ansett! My - we learn something new everyday!
Can't wait to fly with you again Ditz - especially in our 'fab' new uniform (where are those knee high boots you suggested Ditz? Tennis Shorts anyone!?)
I NEVER knew you had designs on joining Ansett! My - we learn something new everyday!
Can't wait to fly with you again Ditz - especially in our 'fab' new uniform (where are those knee high boots you suggested Ditz? Tennis Shorts anyone!?)
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Biscuit Chucker,
I think you'll find that the majority of Regional Crew started off in the same vein as you - all excitement until the low pay and 'exotic destinations' wore off, then it was time to move on! Not everyone considers the regionals as a back door, and there are still those who remain with the Regionals in up to their 8th year (Sunstate has a girl who's been there for this long as I understand!)
I hear what you're saying, and agree wholeheartedly!
I think you'll find that the majority of Regional Crew started off in the same vein as you - all excitement until the low pay and 'exotic destinations' wore off, then it was time to move on! Not everyone considers the regionals as a back door, and there are still those who remain with the Regionals in up to their 8th year (Sunstate has a girl who's been there for this long as I understand!)
I hear what you're saying, and agree wholeheartedly!
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I've been reading PPrune for quite a while now, and never have I seen such passion about a subject as this one (ok, maybe over on Dunnunda - but that's another story!)
Here's my two cents...
I'm in QFLink, and have several years previous flying experience via a mainline carrier (now sadly no longer with us).
Frankly, I resent the comment made earlier that implied that those in the Link applied to QF as a back door entry to mainline. This is simply not true.
In the area I work in, there are basically two types of crew - those with prior airline experience, and those without. The majority of the more 'senior' crew have no prior airline experience and are quite eager to get to mainline. Some have worked for a regional for nearly 5 years, and are now anxious to pursue a new lifestyle.
The crew with around 2 years or less 'seniority' have an amazing plethora of prior airline experience. Many of these crew astound me with their enthusiasm and passion for QF, and are very grateful (as am I) to be employed again in the industry. These crew were not afforded the opportunity to apply to QF, as there has been no QF mainline recruitment during the time in which they were attempting to secure employment.
Does this make either of these groups lesser mortals than one who applied directly to mainline? Absolutely not.
Anyway back to the original topic (heheh).. career progression.
My opinion is that there will be no progression at least until end of 2004. This is because there will be no external permanent recruitment, which of course equals no progression. Dixon himself has said he wants to move towards establishing a higher ratio of permanent:casual/contractor workforce, and has already started implementing tactics to get the ratio of casual/contractor increased. This translates to no career progression in the short term.
It is also my opinion that it will become perfectly acceptable practice to wait 7-10 years in regionals to obtain a career progression slot. Sounds ludicrous I know, but it is already happening. Those at the top of the list are at 5 years already.. no recruitment for the next year or two.. well you do the math.
I think times they are a changing. The issue of progression will reduce in importance. No longer will crew see that dangling carrot as an enticement to stay in the Link. QFLink may need to reassess their strategies to encourage crew to stay, since less and less crew will be signing a progression document that binds them in a way that does not allow them to apply externally to QF. I for one will not be signing that document when it comes my way very soon.
For me, I am using QFLink to gain opportunities and skills. I'm using it for the benefits I can obtain and the challenges it brings. I'm not using it as a back door, why would I? I'll just go through the front door next time it opens.
My thoughts.
SG
Here's my two cents...
I'm in QFLink, and have several years previous flying experience via a mainline carrier (now sadly no longer with us).
Frankly, I resent the comment made earlier that implied that those in the Link applied to QF as a back door entry to mainline. This is simply not true.
In the area I work in, there are basically two types of crew - those with prior airline experience, and those without. The majority of the more 'senior' crew have no prior airline experience and are quite eager to get to mainline. Some have worked for a regional for nearly 5 years, and are now anxious to pursue a new lifestyle.
The crew with around 2 years or less 'seniority' have an amazing plethora of prior airline experience. Many of these crew astound me with their enthusiasm and passion for QF, and are very grateful (as am I) to be employed again in the industry. These crew were not afforded the opportunity to apply to QF, as there has been no QF mainline recruitment during the time in which they were attempting to secure employment.
Does this make either of these groups lesser mortals than one who applied directly to mainline? Absolutely not.
Anyway back to the original topic (heheh).. career progression.
My opinion is that there will be no progression at least until end of 2004. This is because there will be no external permanent recruitment, which of course equals no progression. Dixon himself has said he wants to move towards establishing a higher ratio of permanent:casual/contractor workforce, and has already started implementing tactics to get the ratio of casual/contractor increased. This translates to no career progression in the short term.
It is also my opinion that it will become perfectly acceptable practice to wait 7-10 years in regionals to obtain a career progression slot. Sounds ludicrous I know, but it is already happening. Those at the top of the list are at 5 years already.. no recruitment for the next year or two.. well you do the math.
I think times they are a changing. The issue of progression will reduce in importance. No longer will crew see that dangling carrot as an enticement to stay in the Link. QFLink may need to reassess their strategies to encourage crew to stay, since less and less crew will be signing a progression document that binds them in a way that does not allow them to apply externally to QF. I for one will not be signing that document when it comes my way very soon.
For me, I am using QFLink to gain opportunities and skills. I'm using it for the benefits I can obtain and the challenges it brings. I'm not using it as a back door, why would I? I'll just go through the front door next time it opens.
My thoughts.
SG
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Hi All, I have been away - but I am most impressed with the huge response to this very hot topic.
SydGirl, I agree with you, totally. (As would the majority of people who work at the Link.) Most people join QF Link because they ARE actually recruiting (unlike QF Short/Long Haul) AND/OR because regional flying is more suited to them at this stage of their life. NOT all of us want to sit around and wait to see if Short/Long will or wont to recruit. NOT all of us want to do 10 day trips. NOT all see regional flying as the 'back door' to the 'real thing'. We just want to fly. Anyone with a regional flying background could tell you that it is a great job but not for the faint hearted and if you werent passionate about your role AND the industry - and were JUST after a 'back door' - then I truly doubt if you could last the distance!
However, in saying that, regional flying does cause most hard working FA's to burn out rather quickly and progression is a lovely light at the end of the tunnel when you are feeling like this. At the end of the day, it is a great opportunity to have when you feel you need a change within your working enviornment.
I must say that Peanut Pushers 'attitude' towards Regional FA's seems to be a tad arrogant for my liking. Undeniably, he tends to have that gloss of 'WE are better than YOU'. (I wont start quoting him here, as many people have done so, already.) If people like this (are indeed) working for the QF Recruitment Team, then I find that kind of attitude to be both naive and out of touch - which is most disappointing. CRM just lacks. If you cant communicate your point in a way that doesnt offend (ie constructively or perhaps nicely) then you WILL cop it. It is just a natural response. If you dont like the feedback you receive then you choose to not post - or you choose to CHANGE your attitude. The choice is your own.
And on that note, I'm spent!
Toodles.
SydGirl, I agree with you, totally. (As would the majority of people who work at the Link.) Most people join QF Link because they ARE actually recruiting (unlike QF Short/Long Haul) AND/OR because regional flying is more suited to them at this stage of their life. NOT all of us want to sit around and wait to see if Short/Long will or wont to recruit. NOT all of us want to do 10 day trips. NOT all see regional flying as the 'back door' to the 'real thing'. We just want to fly. Anyone with a regional flying background could tell you that it is a great job but not for the faint hearted and if you werent passionate about your role AND the industry - and were JUST after a 'back door' - then I truly doubt if you could last the distance!
However, in saying that, regional flying does cause most hard working FA's to burn out rather quickly and progression is a lovely light at the end of the tunnel when you are feeling like this. At the end of the day, it is a great opportunity to have when you feel you need a change within your working enviornment.
I must say that Peanut Pushers 'attitude' towards Regional FA's seems to be a tad arrogant for my liking. Undeniably, he tends to have that gloss of 'WE are better than YOU'. (I wont start quoting him here, as many people have done so, already.) If people like this (are indeed) working for the QF Recruitment Team, then I find that kind of attitude to be both naive and out of touch - which is most disappointing. CRM just lacks. If you cant communicate your point in a way that doesnt offend (ie constructively or perhaps nicely) then you WILL cop it. It is just a natural response. If you dont like the feedback you receive then you choose to not post - or you choose to CHANGE your attitude. The choice is your own.
And on that note, I'm spent!
Toodles.