UK ATPL on a type that doesn’t exist
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2023
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From: London
UK ATPL on a type that doesn’t exist
Hello fellow aviators,
I’m in a bit of a sticky situation!
I have an EASA CPL/ME IR with a valid CL65 type rating which I currently fly.
I have a job offer from a major UK airline which requires a UK ATPL to be held prior to starting the TR.
I transferred my EASA licence to the UK However, post Brexit deadline, the UK CAA transferred my ratings to my UK Licence as ‘EXPIRED’.
And in order to renew my CL65 rating and subsequently take a UK ATPL Skills Test, I require a UK approved CL65 simulator with a UK approved CL65 examiner, The issue is, IT DOES NOT EXIST!
Therefore it is impossible for me to obtain a UK ATPL as the CAA simply do not have the facilities for it, based on the type I have…
I have suggested that I complete an EASA ATPL skills test and complete the required paperwork to get that transferred over, however the CAA are still in disagreement.
The UK CAA have turned around and said that the only way to get a UK ATPL is to complete another Type rating course… which is out of the question, and something the new airline in question cannot offer.
Can anyone offer any advice or solution/s?
Many thanks!
I’m in a bit of a sticky situation!
I have an EASA CPL/ME IR with a valid CL65 type rating which I currently fly.
I have a job offer from a major UK airline which requires a UK ATPL to be held prior to starting the TR.
I transferred my EASA licence to the UK However, post Brexit deadline, the UK CAA transferred my ratings to my UK Licence as ‘EXPIRED’.
And in order to renew my CL65 rating and subsequently take a UK ATPL Skills Test, I require a UK approved CL65 simulator with a UK approved CL65 examiner, The issue is, IT DOES NOT EXIST!
Therefore it is impossible for me to obtain a UK ATPL as the CAA simply do not have the facilities for it, based on the type I have…
I have suggested that I complete an EASA ATPL skills test and complete the required paperwork to get that transferred over, however the CAA are still in disagreement.
The UK CAA have turned around and said that the only way to get a UK ATPL is to complete another Type rating course… which is out of the question, and something the new airline in question cannot offer.
Can anyone offer any advice or solution/s?
Many thanks!
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,972
Likes: 326
From: Hong Kong
Last edited by rudestuff; 30th September 2024 at 19:04.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,972
Likes: 326
From: Hong Kong
Despite the fact that you would effectively finish their TR course with an ATPL? So if they won't help then you need the CAA to step up. Have you spoken to them in person?
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 13
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From: London
The airline does the TR courses in-house, so they decide the requirements for the position. I guess it’s more for them to see if you’re ready to be a PIC should the need arise. The CAA are not helpful, and neither is the airline at this point.
I was just hoping for a loophole somewhere that someone on could know…
I was just hoping for a loophole somewhere that someone on could know…
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 336
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From: Dubai
You can apply an Article 71 exemption, in order to do the test on an EASA simulator. They will however insist that the test be completed with a UK TRE which presents it's own unique challenges. They do pushback but with enough persistence they can and will eventually help. This may or may not be a solution, but it does provide an additional avenue to explore.
I managed to get the exemption out of them by proving that there is no difference an EASA sim and a UK one.
I managed to get the exemption out of them by proving that there is no difference an EASA sim and a UK one.
Last edited by Kennytheking; 1st October 2024 at 06:30.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: London
You can apply an Article 71 exemption, in order to do the test on an EASA simulator. They will however insist that the test be completed with a UK TRE which presents it's own unique challenges. They do pushback but with enough persistence they can and will eventually help. This may or may not be a solution, but it does provide an additional avenue to explore.
I managed to get the exemption out of them by proving that there is no difference an EASA sim and a UK one.
I managed to get the exemption out of them by proving that there is no difference an EASA sim and a UK one.
Yes. I am pushing for this too, however so far they have said that the airline will need to submit documents showing an urgent need for me to fly the same type.
Did you get an exception also on the CL65 type or another aircraft?
Any chance you can PM me some details of how you proved the above and what worked for you?
Thanks!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 336
Likes: 15
From: Dubai
Mine was for an A380 type, for which there are 2 UK approved simulators but the operators of the sims do not generally entertain individual clients so access to them was a problem.
You can apply for the exemption in your personal capacity, so you do not need the airline to apply for you. They also gave me the "You do not have an urgent operational need" but I just kept at them, explaining the "urgent operational need" was legally ambiguous and highly subjective depending on your point of view.
Proving your case is straight forward once you get past the urgent operational need issue. I wrote to their simulator standards section to ask them where I could find their post-brexit simulator standards. The head was kind enough to reply and highlighted that they used EASA standards and there has been no deviation by the UK from the EASA standards that were in force on 31/12/2020. Case made...
It took 6 months of back and forth to eventually get this out of them. I was also considering an A320 type rating, or doing a SEP/CPL/IR in order to get a frozen ATP(my case was a conversion from an ICAO ATPL).
My plan was eventually killed by the UK TRE requirement, so I made another plan. You may well run into the same issue as you might find that all the UK TRE's on the CL65 have pushed off to EASAland and no longer have valid qualifications. In fact, a quick search of the UK CAA data doesn't show any TREs'for the CL65, so getting a sim approval may be a moot point.
You can apply for the exemption in your personal capacity, so you do not need the airline to apply for you. They also gave me the "You do not have an urgent operational need" but I just kept at them, explaining the "urgent operational need" was legally ambiguous and highly subjective depending on your point of view.
Proving your case is straight forward once you get past the urgent operational need issue. I wrote to their simulator standards section to ask them where I could find their post-brexit simulator standards. The head was kind enough to reply and highlighted that they used EASA standards and there has been no deviation by the UK from the EASA standards that were in force on 31/12/2020. Case made...
It took 6 months of back and forth to eventually get this out of them. I was also considering an A320 type rating, or doing a SEP/CPL/IR in order to get a frozen ATP(my case was a conversion from an ICAO ATPL).
My plan was eventually killed by the UK TRE requirement, so I made another plan. You may well run into the same issue as you might find that all the UK TRE's on the CL65 have pushed off to EASAland and no longer have valid qualifications. In fact, a quick search of the UK CAA data doesn't show any TREs'for the CL65, so getting a sim approval may be a moot point.
Last edited by Kennytheking; 1st October 2024 at 17:43.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,972
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From: Hong Kong
So what is the procedure when a new type is registered for the first time and there are no TRIs or TREs? Someone has to go first and presumably they just do a manufacturer's course and get a waiver to have it stamped onto their licence? The person who can approve that must have a name.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Hong Kong
Joined: Apr 2015
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From: Glasgow, EGPF
Although in reality it is fairly similar to a CL604, there is no credit either way towards the ratings.
If you are having to go for a new type rating at your own expense to get the licence issued then steer well clear of corporate types. The ratings cost between 5 and 10 times those of airliner Types.
It does seem bizarre the company wanting the ATPL before you start, since you can get it as part of the type course you do with them for no cost other than the admin fee.
If you are having to go for a new type rating at your own expense to get the licence issued then steer well clear of corporate types. The ratings cost between 5 and 10 times those of airliner Types.
It does seem bizarre the company wanting the ATPL before you start, since you can get it as part of the type course you do with them for no cost other than the admin fee.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,972
Likes: 326
From: Hong Kong
What a **** state of affairs. I would try to get someone high up on the phone at the CAA if not a meeting. I can't believe there isn't a single CL65 on the UK register. What does Bombardier say about that? Perhaps if you can find an EASA CL65 TRE who also has a UK TRE you might be able to come to some arrangement with the CAA.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 181
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From: UK
It looks like there were about 15 but all are now de-registered/exported. From https://www.caa.co.uk/aircraft-regis...earch-g-info/#
advanced search for type CL600-2C & 2D including de-registered aircraft.
advanced search for type CL600-2C & 2D including de-registered aircraft.
Registration: G-DUOA
Serial no.: 10028 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2C10Registration: G-DUOB
Serial no.: 10029 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2C10Registration: G-DUOC
Serial no.: 10039 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2C10Registration: G-DUOD
Serial no.: 10048 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2C10Registration: G-DUOE
Serial no.: 10052 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2C10Registration: G-MRSG
Serial no.: 10052 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2C10Registration: G-MRSH
Serial no.: 10048 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2C10Registration: G-MRSI
Serial no.: 10039 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2C10Registration: G-MRSJ
Serial no.: 10029 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2C10Registration: G-MRSK
Serial no.: 10028 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2C10Registration: G-CKXN
Serial no.: 15221 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2D24Registration: G-CKZN
Serial no.: 15237 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2D24Registration: G-CKZO
Serial no.: 15242 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2D24Registration: G-CLJG
Serial no.: 15284 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2D24Registration: G-CLJH
Serial no.: 15283 Aircraft type: CANADAIR CL600-2D24
Joined: Dec 2020
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From: Scandinavia-home of the midnight sun.
I feel your dilemma.. Not sure how the UK CAA works, but in EASA land, if there is no TRE typed on your specific type, he/she can still do a skill test on a type he/she is not familiar with (at least in Scandinavia, there are some local differences between EASA CAA´s). Might be worth checking out, best of luck!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 13
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From: London
this is what I have been looking into. I have spoken to CAE and they have advised that the CL604 that they have is UK certified, and that I can complete a differences course to renew the rating and gain a UK ATPL, however they have quoted me £27k 😂
it’s cheaper to do a new type rating. Anyone have any suggestions for an aircraft type rating in the UK?
it’s cheaper to do a new type rating. Anyone have any suggestions for an aircraft type rating in the UK?
I feel your dilemma.. Not sure how the UK CAA works, but in EASA land, if there is no TRE typed on your specific type, he/she can still do a skill test on a type he/she is not familiar with (at least in Scandinavia, there are some local differences between EASA CAA´s). Might be worth checking out, best of luck!
