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Lets fly for Vistajet?

Old 22nd Jul 2023, 08:44
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Lets fly for Vistajet?

So it seems Vista is hiring again? I turned it down some time ago, and mates at Vista are planning on leaving.

Firstly they say the Financial Future of it is questionable, but that has its own PPRUNE thread.

There are a lot of interview questions and questions about working for Vistajet on the Financial Future thread, rather let's put the interview questions here. Whilst the market and conditions around Europe are constantly improving in favor of the pilots for the first time in a decade, Vista seems blind to the fact. Hell, even Wizzair is offering a sign-on bonus, a retention bonus of 25 000, 15 On /15 Off, 14 On /7 Off or 5 On / 5 Off.

PLEASE ANY ACTUAL PAST/CURRENT VISTAJET CREW CORRECT ME ON ANY OF THE BELOW:

Conditions:
  1. 17 On /13 Off: The crew is getting called out to work a day or two early, then getting home late in the evening on the day they are supposed to fly home. Many simply accept the early callouts because they are worried about being overlooked for an upgrade or losing out on their annual extra day's payout (see point 2) if they say no too often. Don't even think about part-time - many of the senior crew ask and are often denied this. Lets not even get on the idea that crew are asking for 15/15 as Flexjet offers.
  2. The company says they pay extra if flying over X amount of days per year. That's true to a point, but they review your performance in all areas and then threaten to deduct what they will pay you for those extra days if, let's say, your Visas are not done on time, you don't submit hotel, taxi, refueling, airport handling receipts on time, if flight planning gives you a bad review, etc. So try calling in fatigued only to make planning unhappy a few times - let's see what happens to your yearly review.
  3. Not everyone has the same Per Diems. Some crew earn 30 Euros in the world's most expensive destinations, whilst others might get 65 Euros, and no, it has nothing to do with seniority if you are a Captain, a First Officer, or a Cabin Crew member. The crew complained about this over a few meetings only to be told "We're working on it," or "Per Diems are not there to cover all your food costs whilst away from home." Try 36 Euros in New York for an entire day.
  4. On the note of Food, you get no food, i.e. no crew meals. Try flying a 13-hour duty day five days in a row, hoping the passengers won't eat everything so you yourself can eat their leftovers (if they ordered any food at all) only to land late at night in places where the hotel food is now closed, and you aren't able to walk to the shops if there are any. Also, if there are any, it's probably your first time. So instead of resting, you are running around trying to find someplace to just get a basic human need, food. It's not like Ryanair, where you at least return to base and have food at home after a long day at work.
  5. Let's talk Duty. Some crew tell me there are times when crew are close to or beyond their duty limits, be it rest or actual duty but can fly Private rather than Commercial right? I'm not so sure, but apparently, Vista does this. Be prepared to be asked on the odd occasion to make your flight a private one for the owner or his daughter because management is too scared to say no. If you say no, well again...good luck with any upgrades or future at Vista. 4 legs might become 5 or your min rest might have a new definition of minimum rest.
  6. If you call in fatigued the day before, I'm told that Vistajet will call it sick leave instead. They want you to give them advanced warning that you are starting to be fatigued. This makes sense in a normal operation. However, most crew don't call in fatigued as an advanced warning because they can see on their roster over the next two days they have only two flights and then a 36-hour break. When in reality, however, their two flights over the next two days suddenly become three/four flights, and the break is removed from the plan if it's not mandatory, which suddenly becomes another 4 flights.
  7. On the note of talking about breaks, everyone I know at Vista tells me that they only find out they had their 36-hour break/rest period after it has already happened in many cases. So how can you rest if you don't know whether you are on proper rest or not? Is that legal? Apparently, it is/was in their OM that says they can do that.
  8. So you want to fly the Global on a 12-hour flight – Vista fleet has no proper crew rest bed. It has a chair that doesn't go all the way back. If the pax have too many bags, guess where the crew bags go? Behind the reclining chair. The Global 7500 - does up to 15-hour flights with a bench chair, which is in the open kitchen. So you must try to sleep while the cabin crew prepares things for the pax or if you are a gentleman sleep on the floor and let the Cabin Crew sleep on the bench chair.
  9. So you need to catch an airline a day or sometimes two days early to help the company out to Nigeria, Tokyo, Chile - what about business class? No, if the cost is over X amount (which is quite low apparently) it's a simple no. Also, don’t forget, Vistajet books tickets a day or two before, so the tickets will almost never be low enough in price for an upgrade. Netjets and Flexjet offer business automatically on any proceeding flight over 6 hours. Vista doesn't - it's one of the many reasons already mentioned, that many crew are applying to Flexjet.
  10. So you want to be a TRI/TRE, expect to work on your days off. With no vacation days allowed at Vista.
  11. You get no leave at all. It's 17/13, the leave they mention in your contract is just to make it legal. They force leave on you every month during your 13 days off.
  12. Again 17/13 – well your simulator training, your in-house CRM, Fire Fighting - those are all done in Malta on your 13 days off.
  13. Remember Point 2? The part about having to pay for hotels, aircraft refueling, taxis, etc. When you get something wrong on the receipt, maybe the company address, or VAT number, it's not scanned properly, accounting hounds you on your days off to contact hotels to try to get a new receipt.
  14. Remember point 4? Many FOs are leaving to Ryanair, but not only because they aren't being upgraded, not only because they don't get food after a long day of flying, but very simply because the pay is better. Does that not say something to you?
  15. Many crew, I’m told, are planning to leave for Flexjet - Something like 25, is what I'm told. Why? Well, look at the pay comparisons.
Salary Comparisons per year:

Keep in mind, for the airline boys and girls before looking at the salaries, take note that, unlike at an airline, you arrive/leave between one and a half hours up to two hours before & after a flight on private jets. Sometimes 3 hours after a flight if flying the Global. Why? Well, you need to check up on the catering (has it arrived, is it the correct catering), put the covers on / take them off, put in/remove the pins, clean the cabin, sort out the beds, vacuum, polish the wood (not your wood), polish the stairs, sort out the laundry, refill the water yourself, load your own bags, load the passengers' bags when they arrive, download maintenance information on the company laptop to be uploaded to the outlying technicians, download flight data reports directly from the aircraft and upload it to the safety department, download and then upload the latest FMS cycles, charts for the plane and iPads - do it again if it didn’t work the first time (takes 40 minutes), put the engine covers on in winter / desert ops, remove all the alcohol in winter so it doesn’t freeze overnight, check the engine oil, and if need be, get on the ladder, top up the oil yourself, and if in doing so, you ruin your shirt, ask Vista for a new one but pay for it if it hasn’t been 2 years already. That’s just some of the things I can recall from the Vista crew. Also, don’t forget on your 36-hour rest period, you will go shopping to restock the plane with things like Coca-Cola, run around trying to find very specific wines, polish, wet wipes, etc.

Captains:
  • 50k less than Netjets Europe (and that’s being conservative)
  • 35k less than Ryanair/Lauda/Flexjet/DHL
  • Wizzair and Avion Express pay more but not quite certain just how much more.
  • Keep in mind Flexjet might be private, but their crew get business class, crew meals, 75 Per Diems no matter what base you are at & 70 on the company card for dinner.
First Officers:
  • 30k less than Netjets Europe
  • 25k less than Ryanair/Lauda/Flexjet
  • Keep in mind Flexjet might be private, but their crew gets business class, crew meals, 75 Per Diems no matter what base you are at & 70 on the company card for dinner. Vista still pays some of the crew 30 Euros Per Diems and wonders why the crew is leaving.
  • A Netjets FO recently earned 160k last year because of all their incentives for extra work, extra work over the summer, etc.
  • Ryanair even offers x Amount of Airport parking per year. Vistajet was asked by the crew but got told no.

Last edited by Out of Duty; 24th Jul 2023 at 07:56.
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Old 22nd Jul 2023, 10:18
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Mate, I really take exception to 4 and 5. You'll be doing a lot of damage by saying it, especially when my experience says it's not true, The people that work in the cabin are largely great and extremely hard working. They look after the flight deck and always make sure they're fed and watered to the best of their ability.
There's a few that aren't but 99 out of 100 are amazing and reading that their colleagues are saying that on a public forum would be hugely hurtful and unfair.
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Old 24th Jul 2023, 07:54
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No worries, it's been removed if it offends. It was a common complaint, but I stand corrected if that's wrong.

Is anything else, not quite up to par there? These are points gathered after the odd night or two, in the same hotel as Vista over a beer. So there's a strong chance what I was told is over the top, hence the request for Vista people to correct this, or the beer brought out what the crew really felt about the company, you tell me?
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Old 24th Jul 2023, 08:28
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Nah everything there is about right and pretty much sums up why I left 😂. You do have to spend hours preparing the aircraft though and always help clean and polish the cabin at the end of the day.
The cabin crew guys get treated like slaves, FTLs are kind of maintained for them only in so far as itís convenient.
Those 2 hours before and 2 hours at the start and end of the day, theyíre magically 45 mins and 30 mins in the books when it comes to FTLs. A max duty on the global is 18 hours but add another 4 on for what youíll actually work and take 4 off from the following rest period.
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Old 24th Jul 2023, 09:32
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What really surprises me is how training and travel in your off days is accepted.
That sh1t can’t be legal and it will take another crash before the investigation board will kick down the open door and say that’s not ok.
Why do CAAs and work inspections not investigate and ban/fine these practices before?
Not to forget this is forged competition in the market.
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Old 24th Jul 2023, 11:07
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Does Vista at least offer Productive Pay like Netjets, or Block Hour & Sector pay like most other companies of a similar size?

So you pay for your hotels, that's normal in a corporate environment, bloody annoying by the sounds of things. Do you can at least get air miles such as Avion points on the company card when paying for things. I've heard of other companies doing that?
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Old 12th Aug 2023, 21:20
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What happened to the massive new post about VJ published yesterday? Was it too honest and had to be taken down by moderator or on request by VJ management?

-----Disregard comment. It came back again.

Last edited by Setting; 12th Aug 2023 at 23:59.
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 10:19
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Thumbs up

It must be said
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 11:30
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Originally Posted by Setting
What happened to the massive new post about VJ published yesterday? Was it too honest and had to be taken down by moderator or on request by VJ management?

-----Disregard comment. It came back again.
It is gone again, at least I cannot see it. Is VJ management threatening PPRUNE? Well, we got a full copy of the post. If anyone is interested, I can provide it by private message.
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 12:30
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Originally Posted by Setting
What happened to the massive new post about VJ published yesterday? Was it too honest and had to be taken down by moderator or on request by VJ management?

-----Disregard comment. It came back again.
Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!
It is gone again, at least I cannot see it. Is VJ management threatening PPRUNE? Well, we got a full copy of the post. If anyone is interested, I can provide it by private message.
When the pair of you have had enough of conspiracy theories, it was deleted by the OP (Original Poster).

Nothing to do with VJ, PPRuNE or the Full Moon 🤔😂
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 12:51
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Originally Posted by Senior Pilot
When the pair of you have had enough of conspiracy theories, it was deleted by the OP (Original Poster).

Nothing to do with VJ, PPRuNE or the Full Moon 🤔😂
If you say so! Probably some pressure was put on the OP and he removed it. Most of the content was quite accurate from what I hear from former VJ-crew.
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 13:40
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!
If you say so! Probably some pressure was put on the OP and he removed it. Most of the content was quite accurate from what I hear from former VJ-crew.
it wasnít miles off a few things werenít right. Clearly a tired and bitter employee who has probably had a decent sleep and thought better of it in case it got back.
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 15:46
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Originally Posted by Boabity
it wasn’t miles off a few things weren’t right. Clearly a tired and bitter employee who has probably had a decent sleep and thought better of it in case it got back.
Well, I wondered when he wrote that he was a VJ-pilot for nearly decade. If it sooooooo bad, why hasn't he left? Maybe he has and that's why he wrote the text? I hope for him that he has found a better employer, quite a few VJ-colleagues are now with us, especially FAs.
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 19:21
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!
Well, I wondered when he wrote that he was a VJ-pilot for nearly decade. If it sooooooo bad, why hasn't he left? Maybe he has and that's why he wrote the text? I hope for him that he has found a better employer, quite a few VJ-colleagues are now with us, especially FAs.
My thoughts exactly.
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Old 14th Aug 2023, 13:40
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!
Well, I wondered when he wrote that he was a VJ-pilot for nearly decade. If it sooooooo bad, why hasn't he left? Maybe he has and that's why he wrote the text? I hope for him that he has found a better employer, quite a few VJ-colleagues are now with us, especially FAs.
That's assuming it's easy enough to find a job that is adequate to replace your work at VJ.
You still have to find the right job, that allows you to be settled with family. Most private operations are looking for people rated on a specific type who're willing to relocate and be permanently available or work 2 months on 1 month off (or some other arrangement that is 2on:1off, get no holiday, train in your off time and also be responsible for the whole show. Combined with the constant threat of losing your job because owner doesn't like you any more/owner has been caught by the authorities/owner has replaced the plane/you had to say no to something they don't agree with and while VJs attitude to fatigue and FTLs are famously iffy - there's heaps of other charter operations that are as bad if not worse.
It's not as simple as TF is famously quoted as telling the crew "if you don't like it you can leave", the folks there still have to put food on the table.

All that being said, knowing how hard they work for how little compensation vs outside, the equation ain't balanced and it's very surprising that more people don't jump off the train.
I'm quite certain that both Flexjet and NJE have had a large number of enquiries from VJ employees, so I have to wonder why so few are hired.
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Old 14th Aug 2023, 19:24
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Well, the market for biz jobs has been wide open for the last 24 months. Airlines are hiring like crazy as well. Maybe even relocate to the US and take up a job there (employers will apply for your Green Card). Of course VJ is not at the bottom of the list of operators, I think we are all well aware of all the cowboy outfits.

From what I have heard, many VJ crew failed at the simulator screening stage. Don't ask me why or what exactly, I do not know any details. Maybe some candidates can shed some light on this.

I do hope that VJ can stabilize and get onto the right track, so their crew can also finally benefit for their hard work. I personally would not be able to do that roster and all those longhaul flights.
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Old 17th Aug 2023, 08:59
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Originally Posted by Thioda
What really surprises me is how training and travel in your off days is accepted.
That sh1t canít be legal and it will take another crash before the investigation board will kick down the open door and say thatís not ok.
Why do CAAs and work inspections not investigate and ban/fine these practices before?
Not to forget this is forged competition in the market.
I have no time for VJ as an employer, they are in the same category as Ryanair and I would never consider working for them. But you donít do your argument any favours by coming out with nonsense like this.
You are not training and travelling on your days off. Those are work days as per your contract, and if you add up the number of days you work in a year on this arrangement it is less than the number worked by someone with a full time job. Which makes it hard for people with a full time job to sympathise.
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Old 17th Aug 2023, 22:15
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2023 in Europe;Simply horrifying!

Origins 1838

The strike was influenced by the Chartist movement – a mass working class movement from 1838–1848.[2] After the second Chartist Petition was presented to Parliament in May 1842, Stalybridge contributed 10,000 signatures. After the rejection of the petition the first general strike began in the coal mines of Staffordshire. The second phase of the strike originated in Stalybridge.[3]

Civil unrest

A movement of resistance to the imposition of wage cuts in the mills, also known as the "Plug Riots", it spread to involve nearly half a million workers throughout Britain and represented the biggest single exercise of working class strength in nineteenth-century Britain.

On 13 August 1842, there was a strike at Bayley's cotton mill in Stalybridge, and roving groups of workers carried the stoppagefirst to the whole area of Stalybridge and Ashton, then to Manchester, and subsequently to towns adjacent to Manchester including Preston, using as much force as was necessary to bring mills to a standstill. The Preston Strike of 1842 resulted in a riot where four men were shot on 13 August at Lune Street. The West Riding of Yorkshire saw disturbances at Bradford, Huddersfield and Hunslet. At least six people died in a riot at Halifax.[4]






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Old 18th Aug 2023, 09:56
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Originally Posted by ATOguy
I have no time for VJ as an employer, they are in the same category as Ryanair and I would never consider working for them. But you don’t do your argument any favours by coming out with nonsense like this.
You are not training and travelling on your days off. Those are work days as per your contract, and if you add up the number of days you work in a year on this arrangement it is less than the number worked by someone with a full time job. Which makes it hard for people with a full time job to sympathise.
What those full time employees never realize. They are not gone from home at least 17 days every 30 days. They sleep most nights at home with their family. Weekends and bank holidays are off days -> quality family time. How many family events do full time employees miss compared to VJ pilots?

How many days are VJ crews gone in total on average? 19 a month including training etc? That's 456 hours. How does that compare to a full time employee with an 8 hour day? Who is more hours away from home even if you ad commuting time?
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Old 18th Aug 2023, 14:20
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Originally Posted by ATOguy
I have no time for VJ as an employer, they are in the same category as Ryanair and I would never consider working for them. But you donít do your argument any favours by coming out with nonsense like this.
You are not training and travelling on your days off. Those are work days as per your contract, and if you add up the number of days you work in a year on this arrangement it is less than the number worked by someone with a full time job. Which makes it hard for people with a full time job to sympathise.
I'm not so sure about that. A regular worker with a five day work week works 260 days minus 30 days vacation depending on country minus public holidays. That results in about 220 days at work. I understand at Vista one works about 12 times 17 days plus training and no additional vacation. Is that correct? If so then I estimate about the same as the 220 days mentioned above. Maybe a few days less. But at Vista you are away from friends, family and regular activities for 17 days every time you go to work. I find it very easy to sympathize. In fact I'm shocked they get enough people to sign up for this. And it doesn't even pay well. Certainly not compared to NetJets or a good airline
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