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No LPV approaches in UK from 26th June due to Brexit

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No LPV approaches in UK from 26th June due to Brexit

Old 28th Jun 2021, 19:36
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No LPV approaches in UK from 26th June due to Brexit

I just stumbled upon this.

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/EGNOS_V4.pdf

"Without the use of the European Ďaugmentation systemí, and in close co-ordination with the affected aerodromes, NOTAMs are being issued to notify pilots that LPV lines of minima on the RNP IAPs are not available for use from the 25 June 2021 until further notice"

"The end of the EGNOS agreement in the UK will only impact the LPV elements of an RNP APCH (Instrument Approach Procedures) IAPs approach, so only the LPV line of minima will be NOTAMíd as unavailable, before being withdrawn. LNAV (Lateral Navigation only) and LNAV/ VNAV (Lateral and Barometric VNAV) lines of minima published on RNP APCH will continue to be available"

I did look at a few airport notams and no sign of the LPV minima being withdrawn ?

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Old 28th Jun 2021, 21:43
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Presumably you are aware that all IR holders now need to be PBN qualified to retain said privileges.
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Old 1st Jul 2021, 16:23
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That means you are back to good old non precise systems... Great...

Is it correct that one Medical flight already had to divert due to this?
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Old 1st Jul 2021, 18:41
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That document is dreadful; it's full of half truths and doesn't actually say what has happened. It needs to be withdrawn before everyone gets the wrong idea.

What we have lost is access to the EGNOS Safety of Life (SoL) service which is a pre-requisite for LPV approaches. However, the EGNOS Open Service (which is free) is still available so your GPS will still get a useable SBAS augmentation signal. This means that LNAV, LNAV+V and LNAV/VNAV (using SBAS for vertical guidance) will continue to be available. The CAP fails to mention nearly every aspect of that.

Practically at most airports you won't see much difference. Indeed at Cardiff the LPV and LNAV/VNAV minima are nearly identical. At some places where the LNAV/VNAV minima weren't included then the difference from LPV to LNAV minima is bigger - possibly up to 3-400 feet.

But it's the potential of LPV to replace Cat I ILS that we have lost. The Channel Islands had some of the only LPV 200 approaches in the UK but these should have been at every instrument airport by now. Hopefully someone pulls their head out of the sand at UK plc and renegotiates access to the SoL.
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Old 2nd Jul 2021, 15:08
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As a long term IR holder, I was obliged by the CAA to qualify (like many others and at quite a large expense) to fly these approaches, or lose my existing IR privileges altogether. Now we’re told we cannot use them to the full extent of an “old tech” precision approach. That’s progress?

A disgrace.

Whats happened in effect is that the “vertical enhancement” signals still exist and will be received by the aircraft equipment but we are not allowed to use them. It’s the same as not being allowed to watch TV at all if the viewer doesn’t pay the BBC for a licence.
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Old 3rd Jul 2021, 07:23
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Originally Posted by gipsymagpie View Post
Hopefully someone pulls their head out of the sand at UK plc and renegotiates access to the SoL.
Seems quite unlikely unless EGNOS drops European from its name, given the present state of UK politics.
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Old 3rd Jul 2021, 12:02
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Originally Posted by gipsymagpie View Post
Hopefully someone pulls their head out of the sand at UK plc and renegotiates access to the SoL.
Regrettably a negotiation requires 2 parties - my understanding is that the demands being made for access to the system were beyond unreasonable - especially as we part-funded the system in the first place.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 01:08
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NOTAM C5660/21: Newcastle Airport (EGNT)

E) LPV LINES OF OCA(H) DISPLAYED ON THE RNP INSTRUMENT APPROACH CHARTS ARE NOT AVAILABLE FOR USE.

CREATED: 08 Jun 2021 13:36:00 SOURCE: EUECYIYN
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 18:14
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Originally Posted by DCThumb View Post
Regrettably a negotiation requires 2 parties - my understanding is that the demands being made for access to the system were beyond unreasonable - especially as we part-funded the system in the first place.
Well, no one is as good in dealing out cold blooded revenge as bureaucrats are. And the EU is the top of bureaucrat mountain. They will never forgive the UK making their always save jobs less save....
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 18:17
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Well, no one is as good in dealing out cold blooded revenge as bureaucrats are. And the EU is the top of bureaucrat mountain. They will never forgive the UK making their always save jobs less save....
you've been sold a broken toy and still argument about the "bad" EU people...
Let it go mate.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 19:45
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Regrettably a negotiation requires 2 parties - my understanding is that the demands being made for access to the system were beyond unreasonable - especially as we part-funded the system in the first place.
How did anyone ever think the EU would be anything but!? Very naive!! 😬

Anyway, so it’s now left to me in the cockpit to deselect (or not) EGNOS to force the LNAV/VNAV to be loaded into the FMS instead of the LPV? 🤔
So why can’t KLM still use the LPV going in to Humberside, surely they are entitled to use EGNOS anywhere it’s available. I therefore assume I can still legally fly the LPV into Frankfurt!
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Old 5th Jul 2021, 07:20
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Originally Posted by gipsymagpie View Post
This means that LNAV, LNAV+V and LNAV/VNAV (using SBAS for vertical guidance) will continue to be available. The CAP fails to mention nearly every aspect of that.
When you select type of approach, your guidance system will select the sources to display,.If you fly the LPV, you are not seeing the baro generated -VNAV cue, you are seeing the SBAS-generated cue.

The CAP document cannot say that the signal is still available, as this would encourage people to fly unlawfully. And it isn’t available. The NOTAM says that. It is just still there.

Last edited by Torquetalk; 5th Jul 2021 at 07:46.
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Old 5th Jul 2021, 18:31
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
When you select type of approach, your guidance system will select the sources to display,.If you fly the LPV, you are not seeing the baro generated -VNAV cue, you are seeing the SBAS-generated cue.

The CAP document cannot say that the signal is still available, as this would encourage people to fly unlawfully. And it isnít available. The NOTAM says that. It is just still there.
You are confusing what has been lost here. Itís the SoL service we have lost (LPV only) not SBAS. You can absolutely still use this as it is part of the Open (free) part of EGNOS. LNAV/VNAV in most light aircraft has only ever been based on SBAS Open Service and never the SoL. I know we are not seeing the Baro VNAV as it is highly unlikely to be fitted to non-airliners. The LPV and LNAV/VNAV are the exact same flight path in the sky. PANS OPS, the ICAO spec for approaches, CS-ACNS the certification spec for navigation equipment and the appropriate information in the older AC-20 all highlight that any LNAV/VNAV certified for VNAV Baro may be flown with VNAV SBAS (and checked via NATS and the CAA).

So provided you fly to the LNAV/VNAV minima not the LPV minima you are perfectly legal even if your navigation equipment says LPV (thatís just a prioritisation logic). I understand why you might think that from the archaic information pushed out by the CAA in their latest CAP but some reading around the topic will confirm everything outlined above.

LNAV/VNAV may be flown with SBAS VNAV - fact - see CS-ACNS
Only LPV minima have been NOTAMed as unavailable - fact
Therefore you can fly LNAV/VNAV using SBAS where the minima are shown. The anomaly that your particular nag kit shows LPV will be remedied in the next AIRAC.
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Old 5th Jul 2021, 18:53
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Originally Posted by gipsymagpie View Post
You are confusing what has been lost here. Itís the SoL service we have lost (LPV only) not SBAS. You can absolutely still use this as it is part of the Open (free) part of EGNOS. LNAV/VNAV in most light aircraft has only ever been based on SBAS Open Service and never the SoL. I know we are not seeing the Baro VNAV as it is highly unlikely to be fitted to non-airliners. The LPV and LNAV/VNAV are the exact same flight path in the sky. PANS OPS, the ICAO spec for approaches, CS-ACNS the certification spec for navigation equipment and the appropriate information in the older AC-20 all highlight that any LNAV/VNAV certified for VNAV Baro may be flown with VNAV SBAS (and checked via NATS and the CAA).

So provided you fly to the LNAV/VNAV minima not the LPV minima you are perfectly legal even if your navigation equipment says LPV (thatís just a prioritisation logic). I understand why you might think that from the archaic information pushed out by the CAA in their latest CAP but some reading around the topic will confirm everything outlined above.

LNAV/VNAV may be flown with SBAS VNAV - fact - see CS-ACNS
Only LPV minima have been NOTAMed as unavailable - fact
Therefore you can fly LNAV/VNAV using SBAS where the minima are shown. The anomaly that your particular nag kit shows LPV will be remedied in the next AIRAC.
Some bedtime reading on how LNAV/VNAV came to be flown using SBAS.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...20-27_PUBL.pdf
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Old 5th Jul 2021, 18:58
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Originally Posted by H Peacock View Post
How did anyone ever think the EU would be anything but!? Very naive!! 😬

Anyway, so itís now left to me in the cockpit to deselect (or not) EGNOS to force the LNAV/VNAV to be loaded into the FMS instead of the LPV? 🤔
So why canít KLM still use the LPV going in to Humberside, surely they are entitled to use EGNOS anywhere itís available. I therefore assume I can still legally fly the LPV into Frankfurt!
It's all to do with the airport not the aircraft operator. The SoL service paried with a working agreement between the airport and EGNOS (an EWA) meant that EGNOS was legally responsible not the airport for service level provision (particularly the 6 secs to highlight a satellite failure during an LPV). Without the EWA (which are no longer valid), there is no longer teh right legal backstops in place. So airports cannot use LPC any more.

You also do not need to deselect EGNOS. The open service is still completely legal to use and that is what is required for LNAV/VNAV. You just switch to the higher LNAV/VNAV minima.
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Old 5th Jul 2021, 19:05
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Originally Posted by gipsymagpie View Post
You are confusing what has been lost here. Itís the SoL service we have lost (LPV only) not SBAS. You can absolutely still use this as it is part of the Open (free) part of EGNOS. LNAV/VNAV in most light aircraft has only ever been based on SBAS Open Service and never the SoL. I know we are not seeing the Baro VNAV as it is highly unlikely to be fitted to non-airliners. The LPV and LNAV/VNAV are the exact same flight path in the sky. PANS OPS, the ICAO spec for approaches, CS-ACNS the certification spec for navigation equipment and the appropriate information in the older AC-20 all highlight that any LNAV/VNAV certified for VNAV Baro may be flown with VNAV SBAS (and checked via NATS and the CAA).

So provided you fly to the LNAV/VNAV minima not the LPV minima you are perfectly legal even if your navigation equipment says LPV (thatís just a prioritisation logic). I understand why you might think that from the archaic information pushed out by the CAA in their latest CAP but some reading around the topic will confirm everything outlined above.

LNAV/VNAV may be flown with SBAS VNAV - fact - see CS-ACNS
Only LPV minima have been NOTAMed as unavailable - fact
Therefore you can fly LNAV/VNAV using SBAS where the minima are shown. The anomaly that your particular nag kit shows LPV will be remedied in the next AIRAC.
Not knowing how your airplane works on most of the airplanes Iíve flown you have to download the approach from the database. As soon as you download a LNAV/VNAV approach it will load this approach and will use a BARO calculated VNAV path and not an SBAS glide path. It will use a more accurate GPS position for determining the position of your plane but the VNAV path and the SBAS path are two entirely different path systems. with the BARO VNAV the GS beam is straight and a dot deviation at 6 miles will be the same as a dot deviation at 0,5 NM from the runway. The LPV glide path will get more sensitive as it gets closer to the runway. In short, UK doesnít have LPV capability and an LNAV/VNAV approach is not the same as an LPV approach.
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Old 5th Jul 2021, 20:03
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Originally Posted by pilot dude View Post
Not knowing how your airplane works on most of the airplanes Iíve flown you have to download the approach from the database. As soon as you download a LNAV/VNAV approach it will load this approach and will use a BARO calculated VNAV path and not an SBAS glide path. It will use a more accurate GPS position for determining the position of your plane but the VNAV path and the SBAS path are two entirely different path systems. with the BARO VNAV the GS beam is straight and a dot deviation at 6 miles will be the same as a dot deviation at 0,5 NM from the runway. The LPV glide path will get more sensitive as it gets closer to the runway. In short, UK doesnít have LPV capability and an LNAV/VNAV approach is not the same as an LPV approach.
Ah fair point. My system is only certified for the LNAV/VNAV SBAS not LNAV/VNAV Baro. The LNAV/VNAV SBAS approach is a combo of an LNAV (linear) and a VNAV SBAS (angular). But the Garmin 750 we have actually flies LNAV as angular (go figure). This means the indications for an LPV (angular lateral and vertical) are identical to the LNAV/VNAV SBAS (angular lateral and vertical on a Garmin). Hence practically in my installation LPv and LNAV/VNAV are the same.
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Old 5th Jul 2021, 21:29
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Thank goodness, now that horribly complicated ILS is obsolescent, it's all so simple..... .
That's what they call progress...
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Old 5th Jul 2021, 22:19
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You also do not need to deselect EGNOS. The open service is still completely legal to use and that is what is required for LNAV/VNAV. You just switch to the higher LNAV/VNAV minima.
Thanks Gipsymagpie, however the Garmin G1000 doesn't allow you to choose which type of PBN approach you load. If it sees SBAS as active, you can load the LPV but not LNAV/VNAV, the latter can’t be seen as an available approach. The only way to see and load the LNAV/VNAV is to disable SBAS before you load the approach; SBAS can then be reselected leaving the LNAV/VNAV approach active.
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Old 6th Jul 2021, 06:56
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I think the TV license analogy is perfect. The EGNOS signal is still there. The UK based RIMS 'will continue to operate' (I do hope we have increased the rent accordingly!) and 'there is no need to de-select the EGNOS signal from GPS' - according to the CAA.

The CAA update states that 'only the LPV line of the minima is unavailable' which to me reads as 'you can still fly an angular approach, but it must be terminated at the LNAV/VNAV minima' and this is reinforced by the article in Flyer where the man from the ministry says:

"The CAA is not expecting pilots to disable EGNOS within the equipment and indeed, on some models such an action may not be straight forward."

"The CAA is therefore content to let the avionics box select the highest integrity approach mode available, but any approach should only be flight-planned and flown to the LNAV minima. LPV operations are not available.Ē

So the colour TV signal is still there....you just have to watch in the non-HD channels!
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