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Viability of G3 vs G4

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Old 9th Aug 2018, 16:19
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You seem to be in the right place at the right time. Every deal you mentioned, someone just died and just wanted to get rid of the planes.

Hope you continue to have good fortune and safe travels.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 16:20
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Originally Posted by flyboyike View Post
Being typed would help...
It would help but of course you don't have to have that to be a legal co-pilot. I tried to get typed in the GII/GIII, even got signed off for the checkride, but couldn't find an examiner. Very sad for me. Even though I'm typed in the 900 the insurance won't even let me fly right seat without full motion sim in the last 12 months. So I just lay in back on the sofa. Not very exciting or educational but I do arrive fully rested.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 16:25
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Originally Posted by Old Boeing Driver View Post
You seem to be in the right place at the right time. Every deal you mentioned, someone just died and just wanted to get rid of the planes.

Hope you continue to have good fortune and safe travels.
Yes, I have been fortunate. The GIISP deal went down 20 miles from my office. How lucky is that? And the bank also repoed the hangar and was nice enough to let me keep it in there for free until they sold it. Life has been good. But of course I spend a lot of time hunting down these good deals.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 16:26
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Originally Posted by Old Boeing Driver View Post
You seem to be in the right place at the right time. Every deal you mentioned, someone just died and just wanted to get rid of the planes.

Hope you continue to have good fortune and safe travels.
Interesting, ain't it? We got a 45-year-old MP who makes 2mil a year rebuilding Porsche engines, and a guy who keeps buying planes for next to nothing off dead people.

Gotta love PPRuNe.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 17:20
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Old Boeing Driver I hate to go off-topic but I have an operational question for you. I see you are GV typed and there is something I want to know. When I was doing my GII training they asked me to calculate VREF. Well, the card had GII & GIIB on it. (As you know a GIIB is a GII with a GIII wing.) The GIIB was almost 10 knots slower VREF because of the large wing. I was shocked. 10 knots slower is so much safer landing. So my question is does a GV have a lot slower VREF than a GIV because of the large wing? Assume you are landing both planes with no passengers and an hour of fuel on board. GV's have always been out of my budget so I've never really studied them. Thank you.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 17:32
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Vref

Originally Posted by rickseeman View Post
Old Boeing Driver I hate to go off-topic but I have an operational question for you. I see you are GV typed and there is something I want to know. When I was doing my GII training they asked me to calculate VREF. Well, the card had GII & GIIB on it. (As you know a GIIB is a GII with a GIII wing.) The GIIB was almost 10 knots slower VREF because of the large wing. I was shocked. 10 knots slower is so much safer landing. So my question is does a GV have a lot slower VREF than a GIV because of the large wing? Assume you are landing both planes with no passengers and an hour of fuel on board. GV's have always been out of my budget so I've never really studied them. Thank you.
G-V series does have a much lower Vref's than the G-II/IISP/IIB/III The wing is much bigger. Don't remember the numbers now, and don't have access to any manuals.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 18:29
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Originally Posted by flyboyike View Post
Interesting, ain't it? We got a 45-year-old MP who makes 2mil a year rebuilding Porsche engines, and a guy who keeps buying planes for next to nothing off dead people.

Gotta love PPRuNe.
If you reread what I wrote you will recall that I rebuild the motors as a hobby even though do have actual businesses that I own that do this. My main revenue source is content licensing .
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Old 10th Aug 2018, 20:05
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The GV wing is a clean sheet redesign and is the reason for the lower Vref speeds. Major factors driving the wing design were the range requirement and the decision to move the engine nacelles back. Range dictated the wing area, aspect ratio, taper and thickness. Moving the engines back created a problem. On the GIV, the nacelle helps keep the shock wave in position over the inboard wing. Moving the GV nacelle back moved the shock back and required re-contouring of the root with a larger leading-edge radius to reposition the shock wave pressure.
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Old 10th Aug 2018, 20:58
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Originally Posted by Catorce14 View Post
If you reread what I wrote you will recall that I rebuild the motors as a hobby even though do have actual businesses that I own that do this. My main revenue source is content licensing .
Good to know. In any event, at 2mil a year, you're in the Cessna 206 (albeit a new one) market, certainly nowhere near Gulfstream territory. That's not to suggest that you haven't done well in life, it's just that there is a reason why typical Gulfstream buyers are corporations like ATT and 3M.
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Old 10th Aug 2018, 22:25
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Originally Posted by flyboyike View Post
Good to know. In any event, at 2mil a year, you're in the Cessna 206 (albeit a new one) market, certainly nowhere near Gulfstream territory. That's not to suggest that you haven't done well in life, it's just that there is a reason why typical Gulfstream buyers are corporations like ATT and 3M.
Perhaps new ones are in the realm of fortune 500 companies, but if we are talking about straight purchase price on a used plane of say 4m or less and financed under current rates, I can buy the plane .as we have been discussing , it's the maintenance that is unpalatable to me. It's just really more than I want to spend.

However I could swing a 2m jet of US only capability and spend 3-500k per year in maintenance. This would be the sweet spot for taxes for me .

The Cessna? No .Not for me whatsoever .no offense to Cessna owners .I would charter before I bought that. No one in my family would ride in it .
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Old 11th Aug 2018, 14:44
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I love Gulfstreams but they (or any large jet) are maintenance hogs. It's a lot worse than you can imagine. One of the posters above put down $10,000 per year for the hangar. He must not be the one paying for hangar space. I pay hangar space and I say the cost would be at least 10 times that. Truthfully large cabin aircraft need their own hangar because the mechanic will be doing small inspections on a constant basis.The CMP on a large aircraft is nearly 400 pages if that gives you an idea how much there is to do. You are in the same situation my brother was in. Wondering if this large cabin jet thing is a good idea. In time you might end up with a Gulfstream but why not get your feet wet with a mid-size first. As you operate it you will learn about maintenance, hangars and mechanics. If you like how it goes you might buy yourself a Gulfstream size hangar, build a relationship with a part time mechanic on the field and get yourself in position. Now you are ready. For now Lear 55's are nearly free (I only recommend the 55 instead of the 60 because they are cheaper and there are a zillion Lear pilots around, Lear 60 is a different type rating) the maintenance is cheap (relatively speaking) and they are beautiful. Last year the most perfect 55C imaginable was for sale asking $895,000.
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Old 11th Aug 2018, 19:51
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Originally Posted by Catorce14 View Post
Perhaps new ones are in the realm of fortune 500 companies, but if we are talking about straight purchase price on a used plane of say 4m or less and financed under current rates, I can buy the plane .as we have been discussing , it's the maintenance that is unpalatable to me. It's just really more than I want to spend.

However I could swing a 2m jet of US only capability and spend 3-500k per year in maintenance. This would be the sweet spot for taxes for me .

The Cessna? No .Not for me whatsoever .no offense to Cessna owners .I would charter before I bought that. No one in my family would ride in it .
Hmmm. West coast air cooled Porsche engine casings. Do any work for Singer ?

Respectfully - I think you’re still seriously underestimating the operating costs. Maintenance is only a small portion. At 150 hours a year your fuel cost at ~ 3500 lb an hour would be just shy of $350K. The other costs are well outlined in the excellent post above. When you spoke to Netjets or Flex jet, you blanched at the cost. That’s an indication that operating a large cabin jet is not for the ‘well off’; but for the truly wealthy or a corporation. There are a few exceptions. Most are dead, bankrupt or ended up at a fractional.

You seem to hold the entity that was advising you in high regard. I’m surprised that they didn’t outline the situation more clearly.


Last edited by JPJP; 11th Aug 2018 at 20:25.
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Old 11th Aug 2018, 20:10
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Jpjp,

Let me rephrase. IF I could buy the plane for 3.5 or under and IF I could operate it for 500 k per year I would do it .Clearly, this is not possible and I know that.

My plane guy also has a vested interest in making a sale and desperately wants a giv for charter so I think he is grossly understating things because he is counting on 135 income which won't happen .

Everyone has their motivations I guess .

Looking for something smaller at this point. Who knows where I will end up. I thank you all for the good advice .
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Old 11th Aug 2018, 21:57
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A few years ago I was offered a 727 vip with aux tanks, having cross-Atlantic range for something like 4m. Aircraft had a reasonable engines and interior was refurbished for 6m just 2 years before that. Sounds like a deal? Definately not - I would not be surprised if that aircraft is still on sale. Running costs are just too high, crew and maintenance are not so easy to get etc. G3 you are almost guaranteed to be the last owner - there is no aftermarket. G4 could work but 500k a year running cost - forget about it, you will be there with just crew and maintenance (if you lucky and no hickups), hangarage, fuel, other DOCs will be on top
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 17:02
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How funny about the 727 . I just looked up the used ones and many of them are way cheaper than a giv .Clearly a massive money pit but also really cool to have a plane as big as a house inside .I didn't even know they made stuff like that .

Probably costs 10m per year to run it if not more.
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 17:22
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Originally Posted by Catorce14 View Post
How funny about the 727 . I just looked up the used ones and many of them are way cheaper than a giv .Clearly a massive money pit but also really cool to have a plane as big as a house inside .I didn't even know they made stuff like that .

Probably costs 10m per year to run it if not more.
You were saying?

www.vp-bat.com
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 17:38
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Originally Posted by flyboyike View Post
You were saying?

www.vp-bat.com
Omfg that thing is amazing. Stunning. Wonder if o can run that for 500k per year :-)

In the military I pulled security on AIr Force One two different times. I can tell you that the 747 on that website is nicer than the presidential plane inside......
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 21:59
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If my calculations are correct, that thing will run about $70,000 PER FILLUP. That's at US airline fuel rates, so probably more internationally and still more at bizjet rates. That's just the gas.

I understand the airplane was just purchased by a "leasing company". I hope they didn't buy it just to strip and scrap, but the fact that even the Qatari royals didn't want to run it anymore is not a good sign.
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 23:57
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I flew a VIP 727-100 out of the Middle East in the late 90's. 600 hours per year cost about $4M annually back then.
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 01:31
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VP-BAT

Originally Posted by flyboyike View Post
You were saying?

VP BAT
A friend of mine operated VP-BAT. The SP's are actually one of the more expensive 747's to operate.

$500K annually, for the Qatari's, would not cover overflight, landing, parking, and catering costs.
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