Viability of G3 vs G4
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I love Gulfstreams but they (or any large jet) are maintenance hogs. It's a lot worse than you can imagine. One of the posters above put down $10,000 per year for the hangar. He must not be the one paying for hangar space. I pay hangar space and I say the cost would be at least 10 times that. Truthfully large cabin aircraft need their own hangar because the mechanic will be doing small inspections on a constant basis.The CMP on a large aircraft is nearly 400 pages if that gives you an idea how much there is to do. You are in the same situation my brother was in. Wondering if this large cabin jet thing is a good idea. In time you might end up with a Gulfstream but why not get your feet wet with a mid-size first. As you operate it you will learn about maintenance, hangars and mechanics. If you like how it goes you might buy yourself a Gulfstream size hangar, build a relationship with a part time mechanic on the field and get yourself in position. Now you are ready. For now Lear 55's are nearly free (I only recommend the 55 instead of the 60 because they are cheaper and there are a zillion Lear pilots around, Lear 60 is a different type rating) the maintenance is cheap (relatively speaking) and they are beautiful. Last year the most perfect 55C imaginable was for sale asking $895,000.
I pay for the hanger space. I put 10k down as a EXTREMELY conservative number based on your post stating how the "po boys" do it.
I assumed after that post/statement a hanger might not even be part of your budget or mindset. But thanks for proving me right and adding another 100k to your GIII fling bringing it to 24k a hour to operate. It also sounds like your tone is changing overall and aligning with what everyone stated from the start......ironic.
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I pay for the hanger space. I put 10k down as a EXTREMELY conservative number based on your post stating how the "po boys" do it.
I assumed after that post/statement a hanger might not even be part of your budget or mindset. But thanks for proving me right and adding another 100k to your GIII fling bringing it to 24k a hour to operate. It also sounds like your tone is changing overall and aligning with what everyone stated from the start......ironic.
I assumed after that post/statement a hanger might not even be part of your budget or mindset. But thanks for proving me right and adding another 100k to your GIII fling bringing it to 24k a hour to operate. It also sounds like your tone is changing overall and aligning with what everyone stated from the start......ironic.
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If my calculations are correct, that thing will run about $70,000 PER FILLUP. That's at US airline fuel rates, so probably more internationally and still more at bizjet rates. That's just the gas.
I understand the airplane was just purchased by a "leasing company". I hope they didn't buy it just to strip and scrap, but the fact that even the Qatari royals didn't want to run it anymore is not a good sign.
I understand the airplane was just purchased by a "leasing company". I hope they didn't buy it just to strip and scrap, but the fact that even the Qatari royals didn't want to run it anymore is not a good sign.
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Numbers I used that where in my first post -
Jet 400k
Crew 250k
Fuel 50k --------- > goes up because we where using 20 hours and you said 40hrs 100k (still low fyi)
Fees/crew hotel 5k --------------> This number should increase but we will assume they where day trips.
Hanger 10k -----------------------> which you say was wrong and was 100k
Need to add insurance so another 50k.
Total on "basic" cost with the Jet purchase removed because you said yo sold it for what you bought it for 400k is $505,000 divided by 40 hours = $12,625 a hour to operate. (charter brand new at that cost with no headaches)
So based off this very limited information. Yes, you where able to operate a GIII for around 500k.... but at a extremely high hourly cost and high risk of a major cost coming down the line.
If that is what you are into and you understand the risk do it. It is your money.
I do not think anyone on the forum would argue with anyone who came on here saying I know/understand the risk/cost to buy a old aircraft but I really want to do it because I like old spey engines or some bs but I'm willing to spend the money.
The issue is when someone comes on asking how they can bend the rules/cost to justify a old aircraft purchase to work like it is a new aircraft.
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What do you all think of a Lear 55 as a less expensive US only alternative? I say less expensive as opposed to a GIV, naturally. Opinions? Please don't flame, give me opinions.
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Your limiting factor is your annual proposed expenditure. Rickseeman was very fortunate in his purchases and operations, but if he had held and operated to planes for an annual+ period of time, his picture would be quite a bit different.
In very round calculations, corporate operators “generally” have budgets of about 60% fixed costs and 40% direct operating costs. The NBAA has some very good budget worksheets you may be able to obtain. Conklin & de Decker are well known for producing apples to apples comparisons for a good starting place. Based on these percentages, you would have about $300K for pilots, insurance, hangarage, etc, and $200K for fuel, maintenance catering, landing, parking, etc.
Therefore, what you really need is a plane with a relatively known DOC of roughly $1,300 to $2,000 per hour (150 or 100 hours per year)
Not recommending a specific type or direction you should take, but from experience, can tell you it will not be a Gulfstream or equivalent. For your 1 trip to Italy annually, go business/first. Hope this helps.
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In your original posts, you mentioned a purchase price of $2-3 million and an annual operations budget of $500K. Your research has shown you can purchase a lot of airplane in your buy range.
Your limiting factor is your annual proposed expenditure. Rickseeman was very fortunate in his purchases and operations, but if he had held and operated to planes for an annual+ period of time, his picture would be quite a bit different.
In very round calculations, corporate operators “generally” have budgets of about 60% fixed costs and 40% direct operating costs. The NBAA has some very good budget worksheets you may be able to obtain. Conklin & de Decker are well known for producing apples to apples comparisons for a good starting place. Based on these percentages, you would have about $300K for pilots, insurance, hangarage, etc, and $200K for fuel, maintenance catering, landing, parking, etc.
Therefore, what you really need is a plane with a relatively known DOC of roughly $1,300 to $2,000 per hour (150 or 100 hours per year)
Not recommending a specific type or direction you should take, but from experience, can tell you it will not be a Gulfstream or equivalent. For your 1 trip to Italy annually, go business/first. Hope this helps.
Your limiting factor is your annual proposed expenditure. Rickseeman was very fortunate in his purchases and operations, but if he had held and operated to planes for an annual+ period of time, his picture would be quite a bit different.
In very round calculations, corporate operators “generally” have budgets of about 60% fixed costs and 40% direct operating costs. The NBAA has some very good budget worksheets you may be able to obtain. Conklin & de Decker are well known for producing apples to apples comparisons for a good starting place. Based on these percentages, you would have about $300K for pilots, insurance, hangarage, etc, and $200K for fuel, maintenance catering, landing, parking, etc.
Therefore, what you really need is a plane with a relatively known DOC of roughly $1,300 to $2,000 per hour (150 or 100 hours per year)
Not recommending a specific type or direction you should take, but from experience, can tell you it will not be a Gulfstream or equivalent. For your 1 trip to Italy annually, go business/first. Hope this helps.
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One other thing
There are a lot of reputable operators in your area of the country. Their safety records and training can easily be reviewed. Also references.
You would not risk purchase money, or have the "headaches" of ownership.
One thing that was mentioned earlier is what kind of pilot/s will you find in your price range, and how do you keep his/her skills up at even 150 HPY. Forget about 135. It will cost you more than you make.
All this just opinions, but from experience.
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For the short and infrequent trips I would make, it seems like contract pilots would be the way to go. One one directory, for the Lear 55 for example, there are literally pages and pages of them with their day rates posted. I'd probably build up a stable of trusted ones and use them as required. I really don't see the point of annually hiring a pilot and copilot - it would probably be a very unrewarding gig for them based upon my frequency of travel.
And it's not like I have to leave "this minute". I would gave days, even weeks of notice. My life is just not that rapidly evolving that I need to have a pilot in the cockpit keeping the engines warm.
And it's not like I have to leave "this minute". I would gave days, even weeks of notice. My life is just not that rapidly evolving that I need to have a pilot in the cockpit keeping the engines warm.
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Originally Posted by catorce14
I also want to go when I want to go, and to wherever.
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Well now....
For the short and infrequent trips I would make, it seems like contract pilots would be the way to go. One one directory, for the Lear 55 for example, there are literally pages and pages of them with their day rates posted. I'd probably build up a stable of trusted ones and use them as required. I really don't see the point of annually hiring a pilot and copilot - it would probably be a very unrewarding gig for them based upon my frequency of travel.
And it's not like I have to leave "this minute". I would gave days, even weeks of notice. My life is just not that rapidly evolving that I need to have a pilot in the cockpit keeping the engines warm.
And it's not like I have to leave "this minute". I would gave days, even weeks of notice. My life is just not that rapidly evolving that I need to have a pilot in the cockpit keeping the engines warm.
How would you determine which pilots to trust with your life and your family's lives. Do you have the knowledge to know which one to pick?
I realize it would be a similar situation as chartering, but a company that employs, trains, and evaluates its pilots on a regular basis is far more likely to have quality pilots.
Not saying there aren't some quality contract guys out there.
The quality guys are usually high in demand and hard to get even with several days or weeks notice.
For a really good outfit in SOCAL, look at Clay Lacy as an example. Maybe do a sample charter with them, or some other reputable company there.
If you think that owning and operating a plane on your own is really for you, then go for it.
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I'm not seeing a difference. I want to go when I feel like it subject to pilot availability but also other factors as well, weather being one of them. Generally speaking I would never need to go anywhere on a moment's notice as in my 45 years I have never had to. So yeah, whenever I want within reason .
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You are really opening up a can of worms now.
How would you determine which pilots to trust with your life and your family's lives. Do you have the knowledge to know which one to pick?
I realize it would be a similar situation as chartering, but a company that employs, trains, and evaluates its pilots on a regular basis is far more likely to have quality pilots.
Not saying there aren't some quality contract guys out there.
The quality guys are usually high in demand and hard to get even with several days or weeks notice.
For a really good outfit in SOCAL, look at Clay Lacy as an example. Maybe do a sample charter with them, or some other reputable company there.
If you think that owning and operating a plane on your own is really for you, then go for it.
How would you determine which pilots to trust with your life and your family's lives. Do you have the knowledge to know which one to pick?
I realize it would be a similar situation as chartering, but a company that employs, trains, and evaluates its pilots on a regular basis is far more likely to have quality pilots.
Not saying there aren't some quality contract guys out there.
The quality guys are usually high in demand and hard to get even with several days or weeks notice.
For a really good outfit in SOCAL, look at Clay Lacy as an example. Maybe do a sample charter with them, or some other reputable company there.
If you think that owning and operating a plane on your own is really for you, then go for it.
No different than in the military .you get handed a detachment or squad that aren't your people that you need to do an important mission with. At some point you need to trust their training and make it work.
Last edited by Catorce14; 16th Aug 2018 at 02:51.
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Hit submit too soon.
On a commerical flight I could get either sullenberger or that germanwings pilot who flew everyone into the mountain because he was depressed. I did background investigations for my unit for a couple years; we would use them to determine who was fit to be armed. I became real good at looking at a guys references, driving record, interview, and general data to get a picture of what kind of person we were dealing with. I would use those same skills to evaluate a contract pilot.
On a commerical flight I could get either sullenberger or that germanwings pilot who flew everyone into the mountain because he was depressed. I did background investigations for my unit for a couple years; we would use them to determine who was fit to be armed. I became real good at looking at a guys references, driving record, interview, and general data to get a picture of what kind of person we were dealing with. I would use those same skills to evaluate a contract pilot.
You certainly can pick your charter pilot if your using the same company on a semi regular basis.
You are the client, you can stipulate minimum pilot qualifications, you can request reference checks and you can meet pilots prior if you want. This is rare but acceptable.
If it’s not then pick another charter company.
You are the client, you can stipulate minimum pilot qualifications, you can request reference checks and you can meet pilots prior if you want. This is rare but acceptable.
If it’s not then pick another charter company.
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Just to add... many years ago the FAA lumped several different a/c models into the same pilot type rating. Learjet got away with this early on. The Lear 55 type rating is the same rating as the much different Lear 20 series and Lear 30 series type ratings so you might find most guys claiming to be Lear 55 “rated” have never actually flown a Lear 55. Just a heads up.
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Just to add... many years ago the FAA lumped several different a/c models into the same pilot type rating. Learjet got away with this early on. The Lear 55 type rating is the same rating as the much different Lear 20 series and Lear 30 series type ratings so you might find most guys claiming to be Lear 55 “rated” have never actually flown a Lear 55. Just a heads up.
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Hit submit too soon.
On a commerical flight I could get either sullenberger or that germanwings pilot who flew everyone into the mountain because he was depressed. I did background investigations for my unit for a couple years; we would use them to determine who was fit to be armed. I became real good at looking at a guys references, driving record, interview, and general data to get a picture of what kind of person we were dealing with. I would use those same skills to evaluate a contract pilot.
On a commerical flight I could get either sullenberger or that germanwings pilot who flew everyone into the mountain because he was depressed. I did background investigations for my unit for a couple years; we would use them to determine who was fit to be armed. I became real good at looking at a guys references, driving record, interview, and general data to get a picture of what kind of person we were dealing with. I would use those same skills to evaluate a contract pilot.
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How?
Hit submit too soon.
On a commerical flight I could get either sullenberger or that germanwings pilot who flew everyone into the mountain because he was depressed. I did background investigations for my unit for a couple years; we would use them to determine who was fit to be armed. I became real good at looking at a guys references, driving record, interview, and general data to get a picture of what kind of person we were dealing with. I would use those same skills to evaluate a contract pilot.
On a commerical flight I could get either sullenberger or that germanwings pilot who flew everyone into the mountain because he was depressed. I did background investigations for my unit for a couple years; we would use them to determine who was fit to be armed. I became real good at looking at a guys references, driving record, interview, and general data to get a picture of what kind of person we were dealing with. I would use those same skills to evaluate a contract pilot.
