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Opinions on Falcon 2000 appreciated

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Opinions on Falcon 2000 appreciated

Old 12th Mar 2015, 14:26
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Opinions on Falcon 2000 appreciated

Dear fellow PPruners,

I would be very happy to hear your stance on the F2000, in particular on the most recent versions (LXS, LX, etc…).

I know by experience that they are sweet airplanes to fly, but in general what are their strengths and weaknesses (in performance, reliability of systems, recurring issues and complaints) and what would you improve if you could, etc...?

Thanks a lot as always,

Leo
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Old 12th Mar 2015, 15:57
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+ large and comfortable cabin
+ nice flight deck (EASy)
+ performance
+ most defects that I had were of minor nature and hardly ever grounded the bird (2000EX EASy)

- DFS Paris Le Bourget maintenance can be below standard, but there are other excellent MX-providers around Europe (e.g. in Amsterdam)
- water system breaks quite often
- APUs have a weakness in their seals and when they break release oil-fumes into the bleed air system. APUs require some attention on this type, especially if you run them often and for many hours
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Old 12th Mar 2015, 16:56
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Water system breaks quite often - can you elaborate a bit further ?

The APU - is it a Honeywell ?

We would take 'her' into quite a small field - apart from the books numbers, in the real world, how do you rate brakes etc ? We just start to evaluate what we gonna buy....or if we keep the Sovereign..

Have you any experience with JetAviation Basle and/or Aerodienst Nürnberg ?
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Old 12th Mar 2015, 17:09
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The brakes are not as good as at the ones on the Challenger 300, but they are carbon as well, if you step on them they brake, without "duck walk", it performs as the book says, if you fly it like the book says..
Autobrake option is on/off and operate at mains touchdown..expect some deceleration

APU honeywell indeed

The water reservoir is located at the very back of the plane , and the feeder lines are made in a rigid plastic material, therefore in winter you need to drain the whole system and it is a bit of a pain since it needs bleed air..now try to empty the water tank on the apron in GVA....

If you do not do it if will freeze and break hence leaks.... but again this is in the ground service manual, so it should not be an issue. NJE was so smart that they had a "special procedure" to solve the issue, therefore it keeps on breaking LoL

The LXS is a nice bird, by the time you will get one, you might be able to use all the goodies on it.

The 2000 EX / LX / LXS are fine birds, no big worries, but it is Dassault, and something to remember , with Dassault, it seems that you do not own the plane, barely have the right to fly it, but once you are contaminated , difficult to switch back...
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Old 12th Mar 2015, 19:03
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EatMyShorts! and CL300 are right: the water system is a weak spot. But there is a cheap way to prevent damage to it and if needed, I can share a procedure with you which is quite commonly applied in countries with rather harsh winters...

The brakes are excellent. Don't know the brakes of the Challenger, but they are really good.

Short field performance has always been a strong suit of the F2000 series and with the arrival of the inboard slats with the S and LXS model, it's even more phenomenal.

I've never had any problem with the APU.

For maintenance, I do agree with what EatMyShorts! wrote. It is my impression that you get a more customer friendly treatment when you avoid the big service centers. For recommendations I prefer sending you a PM.

Don't buy the class II EFB standard issue - they are useless. Forward lav is the thing to have on longer flights and the foldable jump seat (= folds into into the cockpit floor) frees some valuable real estate in the galley. EASy II + adresses some irritations of the previous version.

They are reliable birds with very few problems and great operational flexibility.

Good luck and enjoy!
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Old 12th Mar 2015, 19:27
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Thanks guys.

CL300, not sure if I get your drift here:

with Dassault, it seems that you do not own the plane, barely have the right to fly it
When it comes to spares and parts, how good is the Dassault network ? We had some issues with the Sovereign, a single airplane ops such as ours needs a very good support. Main issue we have is Honeywell parts (Avionics), thus would we have to expect the same 'non-service' ?
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Old 13th Mar 2015, 06:42
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If going to a Dassault center like in Paris; you need to leave one of your engineer on site in order to watch them, especially if you are not on an all-inclusive contract. I have not been using DFS for a while ( as maintenance station), but if they had convinced themselves about something ( obviously incorrect), you will not stop them in burning manpower in order to prove themselves correct, they are a bit ( sic) stubborn. Then comes the bill.... This is why, you will save money by having your own mechanic on site, that will stop them on doing idiotic things... and amendments to work orders to be signed BEFORE not after the job was done...

All in all, having flown falcons for years ( all models) they are getting more and more reliable, even if the 50EX/900EX are still the best aircrafts to take out in the middle of nowhere for days.

As far as the brakes are concerned, of course they are very good brakes and had no issues with them, just the deceleration on the CL300 is VERY efficient, and i was surprised with it when I test flew the plane before its certification, but this is around 15 years ago ( shit...15 years..) the CL300 is a Falcon 50EX on two engines. But with Nietjets order, i would stay out of this airframe for a while. The 2000 will be 30% more expensive to run, but hey ! You have a Dassault !!
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Old 13th Mar 2015, 09:47
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I know that having the fold out "from the floor" jump seat frees up room in the galley and flight deck… But… It is crap. I hate them.

I have flown on a couple of Falcons, one of which has that type of jump seat, and it is nothing but a pain in the behind, and not only for me, but for the flight crew too. Constantly having to move stuff around to get it out of the floor, difficult to get in and out of, uncomfortable (all be it, not for prolonged use…), if you are going to do trips with a full time FA or regular freelance, the permanent sideways seat behind the right hand seat is much better. Can till be used for storage if no FA onboard as it has the fold down hanging rail and the likes…

Also means the FA has somewhere to sit during flight if the clients or principal wants the cabin closed off and to sleep… I can tell you, it is no fun sitting on a ATLAS galley box for several hours… In fact, I can liken that to the comfort level of the fold out jump seat…!
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Old 13th Mar 2015, 15:52
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I know that having the fold out "from the floor" jump seat frees up room in the galley and flight deck… But… It is crap. I hate them.
I agree 100%, damn thing is basically useless and a major PIA to use.
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Old 13th Mar 2015, 18:26
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As others have said, the potable water system is a weak point, only because crew don't take enough care ensuring the system is fully drained in freezing conditions.

The APU is the next weak point; the main turbine shaft is too long for just two bearings so will flex and eventually destroy the oil seals causing fumes in to the bleed air system, its a well known PIA for Dassault on average you get around 1000 hours before APU replacement is required.

The only other issue for me is the missing third engine otherwise once you get used to the Dassualt product you won't look back
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Old 14th Mar 2015, 10:09
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Dear all,

Thanks a lot for your very valuable inputs.

I was also told that the F2000 is a bit sensitive reg. corrosion, in particular of the Slats….

And that the brakes may freeze….

Would you concur ?

Leo.
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Old 14th Mar 2015, 12:18
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the late 2000 are ok for corrosion, old 20 with solded airframes and DLE were indeed sensitive, again the ground service manual is very well documented on the matter of the after effect of de-icing fluid.

As far as brake freeze is concerned, they are carbon brakes, therefore they hate water, there is an optional brake heating system, valuable if you operate in cold and unfriendly places all the time, otherwise this device can be a bit of a PIA.

It is a BBW as well, so there is a procedure before landing and after take off to address the situation, but most malfunctions on the gear are coming from proximity switches not being properly adjusted for temperature ( these are magnetic fields, and have to be rigged according to an operating temperature)
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Old 16th Mar 2015, 15:59
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I have been flying this bird since 2007 now and I really like it!

Frozen brakes:
I never had this, although I have been Moscow in snow storms etc.. there is a procedure for taxiing and taking off in snow, slush and standing water (with cold temperatures). You just heat up the brakes before takeoff by applying them a couple of times. There is a temperature sensor that will show you if they are still below 0 degrees or if they are okay.


APU oil leaks: in my opinion the main problem is the angle in which the APU has been installed. Leaking oil runs back to the core where the bleed air valve is and it can get sucked in then. You normally notice this at the end of a long descent when you advance the thrust again. "Dirty socks" smell...


Water system: I always stick to the draining procedure and it still breaks every now and then. The last few times the t-handle (and the valve that it moves) were broken. The good thing is: in such a case you can still refill the system from inside, there is a gravity filling system.


Landing performance: in my opinion it is very good. You just need to stick to the limits, fly the speed and don't flare too much - the brakes and reverse are efficient. In Cannes I can easily bring it to a smooth stop half-way down the runway, although CL300 hates me for it


If I had the money and had to choose, I'd go for a Falcon!
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Old 16th Mar 2015, 16:11
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it to a smooth stop half-way down the runway, although CL300 hates me for it
I do not care anymore..... You can do whatever you wish i believe, nobody is looking anyway, and AFAIK nothing was written in the law...
so APU on , full reverses, middle taxiway.. Netjets has no more F7X plans, and Dassault came with a variable MTOM, so....

Next year the airport will go private, as a consequence one might be able to land a 747 there...


everybody with money goes for Falcon, this is why Netjets goes for Bombardier LoL ( a bit of bashing ;-) )
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Old 16th Mar 2015, 18:23
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CL300.

Having your own mechanic to watch over maintenance is essential for all aircraft at any maintenance outfit.

To quote an example, we used get our maintenance done at an outfit in Miami. Our boss had his own mechanic on site alright, during the last heavy check. However he was so stupid he messed his pay around. As the maintenance outfit were a bunch of crooks (who isn't in aviation?) they "recruited him" and bestowed lavish gifts etc., upon him. The boss? Well he had to sell the aircraft to foot the bill.
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Old 16th Mar 2015, 18:46
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I am sure that there is countless experiences from all corners of the planet regarding this type of behavior :-)
DFS , ( and Dassault in general) have a very paternalistic vision of their planes, and the way it shall be done.
Mechanics, Gate-keepers, Bell-men, Valet-parking...do not mess with them.. :-)
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Old 16th Mar 2015, 20:21
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So, reading between the lines, the F2000 is really expensive to operate ? Did I understand that correctly ?

I´d really like to keep my job and an overly expensive airplane could ruin that plan... I´d rather fly my old Sovereign a tad longer than have the F2000 on the ticket and join the line for food stamps...

Regarding the brakes, how much of a problem are brakes when it comes to energy limits for quick turn arounds ? We have a milk run were we just pick up guys and some times achieve ground times of less than 10 minutes (long runway there, 2500 mtr, so with the Sovereign one barely touches the brakes there)
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Old 16th Mar 2015, 23:09
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Brake energy limits are usually not a big problem. The rule is: if the brake temperature indication is < 160 deg C before takeoff you don't even need to hit the books. On a long runway you simply use idle reverse and that will slow down the plane quite a bit.

As I am not familiar with the cost-side (maintenance) of the aircraft I cannot tell you about it, sorry. I can tell you, though, that the F2000EX EASy is quite economic: FL400 M0.83 costs you about 1800lbs of fuel per hour, which is really good for this category of aircraft. My record flying-time is exactly 9 hours with LRC thrust. At full steam you can probably fly it for about 7 hours.
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 09:01
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Brakes never failed on me and their performance is phenomenal. Brake energy limit is only a problem if you're planning on performing a sequence of aborts in EGKB.

All new airplanes come with brake heating, to my knowledge.

The fuel figures are correct and the airplane is very economical to operate. 'Slowing down' to between mach .80 to .81 (= the speed at which the F2000's wing seems to work most efficiently) even makes the fuel flow even more sexy.

Maintenance is not cheap, but rarely something breaks. There are gremlins in the EASy avionics which are usually cured by a reset. But it is not a regular occurrence. If you stick to a fixed routine when starting up the system, then you should not have many of them.

The 'old' Collins boxes of the Classics never had any of this...

There is a a workable procedure for preventing the potable water system to freeze, if you don't have a hangar.

@ His Dudeness: don't be. Your owner will love it's economy, speed, baggage compartment and silence. Send me a pm if you have doubts.
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Old 18th Mar 2015, 08:08
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You can also just buy a Falcon 2000 classic for 7 million, put in a brand new proline 21 cockpit including ADS-B, CPDLC, WAAS/LPV, JEPPVIEW, ETC for 1 million and put on some winglets for 600.000 and for 8.6 million you have the same plane minus the headache an Easy cockpit will give you for about 25% of the price

http://www.duncanaviation.aero/image...alcon-2000.jpg

SOAB
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