Netjets. The Silver Lining
Netjets. The Silver Lining
Netjets USA is different from Europe in a number of ways. Primarily they have union representation for the pilots and get a far better deal. Here, with many nationalities, living all around Europe, there is none. The relatively inexperienced management take advantage of this and some of the stories abound defy belief.
There are many Rumours about this strange company that everone seems to want to work for but who really knows much about them?
My second cousin, twice removed flys for them so maybe I can shed some light on at least some of the Rumours:
The deception begins at interview when a very rosy picture indeed is presented for you. However, once you start the benefits don't quite add up. Don't be too surprised to learn the salary agreed on may have changed for the worse, the loss of licence insurance strangely does not cover loss of a professional certificate or licence, the private health scheme pays back a mere fraction of your claim and the retirement savings plan that you have been contributing to sometimes exists and sometimes does not!
Sim training is done twice yearly but leaves a lot to be desired. It would certainly help if the instructors knew the operating proceedures of the company so the pilots could be trained in using them. F/O's regulary complain that every Captain insists on different calls, settings, and proceedures. There is simply no standardization.
It is also true that management fire pilots for apparently little reason. Nearly half an entire fleets' Captains were fired last year not to mention the Director of European Operations and the Chief Pilot. Surely their selection process cannot pick all these "bad guys"? Trial by sim is one of many tactics. Captains are being held solely responsible for every day-to-day problem and being forced to write reports on every abnormality such as why the caterers used the wrong type of bread, why the fuel truck was late. etc. anything more serious and you will find yourself summoned to HQ for punishment.
The fining of pilots takes place regulary. One was fined a weeks pay for keeping a passenger waiting 1/2 hour whilst the aircraft was de-iced! another was threatened with it after not recording TOD fuel! The Chambery incident. (true), was interesting as Netjets apparently did not know what a CAT C airfield was until very recently. You still went there though. The paranoia that exists amongst crews now is such that i know of F/O's that just do not want command for that little extra money but all that cr#p! On the subject of salaries, a Captain once discovered down route that between himself, the F/O and the Flight attendant he was the lowest paid member of the crew.
Any defects get written up when operationally convenient and management script ALL tech log entries, specifically insisting crews fly on to maintanance and then report even airworthy defects in order to avoid AOG's. Some maintanance appears to be being done illegally! In fact the whole proceedure now requires so much consultation with so many individuals that many pilots unfortunately ignore the defect altogether if they possibly can.
Weekly accumulators have been made up at the end of a week so as to make sure no-one has exceeded 55 hours. There was at least one where all the previous weeks' report times were retropectively reduced from 90 to the legal minimum 30 minutes in order to achieve this.
I can say I know of no communication from the pilots to management to have ever gotten a response, including personal, financial and safety issues. They simply ignore everything.
So it appears that all that glitters may not be gold and whilst some pilots are happy-ish, (mainly Portuguese, who in the absense of similar nepotism elsewhere have little career choices), many are rightly distressed by the operating practices of this company.
To compare their standards to that of an airline is Plane ridiculous.
Perhaps it is obvious: The bigger the silver lining, the bigger the cloud!
There are many Rumours about this strange company that everone seems to want to work for but who really knows much about them?
My second cousin, twice removed flys for them so maybe I can shed some light on at least some of the Rumours:
The deception begins at interview when a very rosy picture indeed is presented for you. However, once you start the benefits don't quite add up. Don't be too surprised to learn the salary agreed on may have changed for the worse, the loss of licence insurance strangely does not cover loss of a professional certificate or licence, the private health scheme pays back a mere fraction of your claim and the retirement savings plan that you have been contributing to sometimes exists and sometimes does not!
Sim training is done twice yearly but leaves a lot to be desired. It would certainly help if the instructors knew the operating proceedures of the company so the pilots could be trained in using them. F/O's regulary complain that every Captain insists on different calls, settings, and proceedures. There is simply no standardization.
It is also true that management fire pilots for apparently little reason. Nearly half an entire fleets' Captains were fired last year not to mention the Director of European Operations and the Chief Pilot. Surely their selection process cannot pick all these "bad guys"? Trial by sim is one of many tactics. Captains are being held solely responsible for every day-to-day problem and being forced to write reports on every abnormality such as why the caterers used the wrong type of bread, why the fuel truck was late. etc. anything more serious and you will find yourself summoned to HQ for punishment.
The fining of pilots takes place regulary. One was fined a weeks pay for keeping a passenger waiting 1/2 hour whilst the aircraft was de-iced! another was threatened with it after not recording TOD fuel! The Chambery incident. (true), was interesting as Netjets apparently did not know what a CAT C airfield was until very recently. You still went there though. The paranoia that exists amongst crews now is such that i know of F/O's that just do not want command for that little extra money but all that cr#p! On the subject of salaries, a Captain once discovered down route that between himself, the F/O and the Flight attendant he was the lowest paid member of the crew.
Any defects get written up when operationally convenient and management script ALL tech log entries, specifically insisting crews fly on to maintanance and then report even airworthy defects in order to avoid AOG's. Some maintanance appears to be being done illegally! In fact the whole proceedure now requires so much consultation with so many individuals that many pilots unfortunately ignore the defect altogether if they possibly can.
Weekly accumulators have been made up at the end of a week so as to make sure no-one has exceeded 55 hours. There was at least one where all the previous weeks' report times were retropectively reduced from 90 to the legal minimum 30 minutes in order to achieve this.
I can say I know of no communication from the pilots to management to have ever gotten a response, including personal, financial and safety issues. They simply ignore everything.
So it appears that all that glitters may not be gold and whilst some pilots are happy-ish, (mainly Portuguese, who in the absense of similar nepotism elsewhere have little career choices), many are rightly distressed by the operating practices of this company.
To compare their standards to that of an airline is Plane ridiculous.
Perhaps it is obvious: The bigger the silver lining, the bigger the cloud!
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How could we ever know if any of these allegations are true, or wether you have an axe to grind ... Flintstone, where are you, can you comment on this please ? The item about FO's complaining that each captain has his own calls is not surprising - that is hard to get around in GA as we know it ...
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Happyjack-what has prompted this sudden out pouring of venom.Have you been wronged by them or do you feel that your conscience will not be at ease if you just don't let us pruners know what "is " happening. 
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Yep, I've heard some of these rumours but they are just that. Without wishing to add fuel to the fire I'll relay what I've heard with the caveat that this may not be accurate either (I was once told that someone had been sacked and then met the person concerned on my next tour which just goes to prove it's all to be taken with a large pinch of salt).
The Rosy Picture. Things have pretty much turned out the way I was promised they would. I heard from one new pilot that the pay scale changed between her/his interview and induction course. Given that s/he had a quit a perfectly good job s/he was none too pleased at the fait accompli. Can't say if this is all part of a deliberate deception as happyjack is suggesting.
Private Health Care. Sore point with me as I shelled out a barrowload of money last year and have had nothing but 'fending off' letters from the insurers so far.
Savings/Pension Plan. Although at first employees and the Company were contributing to a fund the fund itself did not exist. This was because everyone thought the scheme could be run the same way as that in the US. Unfortunately you cannot earn interest in the US if you do not pay tax there. The monies were therefore paid into a non-interest earning account pending the setting up of a more correct (ie 'legal') fund which took about a year. Once this was done all contributions from both employees and Netjets were transferred. It was shown that had the money been invested for the year we would have earned virtually nothing as the stock market was pants. Despite this Netjets contributed an extra 5%, roughly what would have been earned over the year in the money market. Which was nice.
SOP's. I have occasionally flown with another crewmember who has (say) overlooked or omitted a call in the heat of the moment (although I never have, you understand) but nothing too serious. I have certainly never seen anyone deliberately flout the SOP's or insist on their own version. Others may be set in their ways but most make the effort to change. I believe this can, and does, happen in other companies. I have not heard of anything more serious.
Don't know about half a fleets Captains being fired.
Director of European Operations left (or was left) but rumours as to why vary. I believe I know the correct one but it's not my place to repeat it. There's always more to it than meets the eye.
The Chief Plot was not sacked but stepped down for personal reasons and is returning to line flying.
It is true that we, the crew, have to vet most aspects at the sharp end (catering, handling agents etc) but that seems logical. Who else is there? Owners (passengers/clients) state their preferences in terms of catering etc and the company is expected to meet them. If we don't, what is the point in asking what people want in the first place?
'Trial by sim'. I've heard rumours of people failing in the sim but as I've said before I've also heard of the company giving second and third chances.
The de-icing incident. Version I got was that the handling agent didn't heat the fluid in time and then found they had no-one capable of driving the truck and operating the equipment so not the Captain's fault. Don't know about the deduction of pay.
'...wrong sort of bread'? Don't know.
Pay scales. Were supposed to have been sorted out by now but Rumour Control forecasting another tweak. Watch this space.
Defects. See my previous answer on this one. I've never been asked to do this or seen it happen.
Illegal Maintenance. Not that I've seen and anyway that's impossible since I had to leave my Leatherman at home.
Duty hours. Mine are all fine. Best thing to do is keep an eye on them and ensure you don't run out. Can't comment on anyone else's.
Communication. Everyone is busy. Of various e-mails, phone calls etc I've had one or two not returned so I reminded the person concerned and got my answers. Squeaky wheel gets the oil and all that. Happens everywhere.
Paranoia? It's true, everyone is out to get me.
That's my version of things so far. If it changes I'll be sure to let you all know.
The Rosy Picture. Things have pretty much turned out the way I was promised they would. I heard from one new pilot that the pay scale changed between her/his interview and induction course. Given that s/he had a quit a perfectly good job s/he was none too pleased at the fait accompli. Can't say if this is all part of a deliberate deception as happyjack is suggesting.
Private Health Care. Sore point with me as I shelled out a barrowload of money last year and have had nothing but 'fending off' letters from the insurers so far.
Savings/Pension Plan. Although at first employees and the Company were contributing to a fund the fund itself did not exist. This was because everyone thought the scheme could be run the same way as that in the US. Unfortunately you cannot earn interest in the US if you do not pay tax there. The monies were therefore paid into a non-interest earning account pending the setting up of a more correct (ie 'legal') fund which took about a year. Once this was done all contributions from both employees and Netjets were transferred. It was shown that had the money been invested for the year we would have earned virtually nothing as the stock market was pants. Despite this Netjets contributed an extra 5%, roughly what would have been earned over the year in the money market. Which was nice.
SOP's. I have occasionally flown with another crewmember who has (say) overlooked or omitted a call in the heat of the moment (although I never have, you understand) but nothing too serious. I have certainly never seen anyone deliberately flout the SOP's or insist on their own version. Others may be set in their ways but most make the effort to change. I believe this can, and does, happen in other companies. I have not heard of anything more serious.
Don't know about half a fleets Captains being fired.
Director of European Operations left (or was left) but rumours as to why vary. I believe I know the correct one but it's not my place to repeat it. There's always more to it than meets the eye.
The Chief Plot was not sacked but stepped down for personal reasons and is returning to line flying.
It is true that we, the crew, have to vet most aspects at the sharp end (catering, handling agents etc) but that seems logical. Who else is there? Owners (passengers/clients) state their preferences in terms of catering etc and the company is expected to meet them. If we don't, what is the point in asking what people want in the first place?
'Trial by sim'. I've heard rumours of people failing in the sim but as I've said before I've also heard of the company giving second and third chances.
The de-icing incident. Version I got was that the handling agent didn't heat the fluid in time and then found they had no-one capable of driving the truck and operating the equipment so not the Captain's fault. Don't know about the deduction of pay.
'...wrong sort of bread'? Don't know.
Pay scales. Were supposed to have been sorted out by now but Rumour Control forecasting another tweak. Watch this space.
Defects. See my previous answer on this one. I've never been asked to do this or seen it happen.
Illegal Maintenance. Not that I've seen and anyway that's impossible since I had to leave my Leatherman at home.
Duty hours. Mine are all fine. Best thing to do is keep an eye on them and ensure you don't run out. Can't comment on anyone else's.
Communication. Everyone is busy. Of various e-mails, phone calls etc I've had one or two not returned so I reminded the person concerned and got my answers. Squeaky wheel gets the oil and all that. Happens everywhere.
Paranoia? It's true, everyone is out to get me.
That's my version of things so far. If it changes I'll be sure to let you all know.
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Just to participate a little bit, I just can confirm this.
Payscale who was promissed during the interview was the one expected and proposed when I signed the contract, no surprises...
Eventhough among the new hired, one was told something else during the interview. Was it a missunderstanding? Maybe....
Four out of five had no surprises...
Keep my finger cross...
Payscale who was promissed during the interview was the one expected and proposed when I signed the contract, no surprises...
Eventhough among the new hired, one was told something else during the interview. Was it a missunderstanding? Maybe....
Four out of five had no surprises...
Keep my finger cross...
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What Happyjack says is mostly true.
I dont know about the maintenance bit.
Massaging duty time ? Yep.
Guess what time spent airlining to work, or in the taxi between two airports to take over an airplane after you dropped one of is not considered for your weekly dutytime. If you spend 12 hours on a static display? You guessed it nope.
It goes on and on.
Flintstone
excuse me please if i am wrong but to me you still sound like management or a management wannabee. Its not personal.
Dont expect to hear much more from me as i am as scared to speak out as the rest of the workforce.
Consider that one fleetmanager prides himselve to bear the nome de guerre of "Guillotine" for having given 6 pilots "the chop"
I dont know about the maintenance bit.
Massaging duty time ? Yep.
Guess what time spent airlining to work, or in the taxi between two airports to take over an airplane after you dropped one of is not considered for your weekly dutytime. If you spend 12 hours on a static display? You guessed it nope.
It goes on and on.
Flintstone
excuse me please if i am wrong but to me you still sound like management or a management wannabee. Its not personal.
Dont expect to hear much more from me as i am as scared to speak out as the rest of the workforce.
Consider that one fleetmanager prides himselve to bear the nome de guerre of "Guillotine" for having given 6 pilots "the chop"
Last edited by Fakawi; 15th May 2002 at 09:42.
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If the above posts are accurate regarding many of the concerns people have about the operation, what are they doing about it?
I know times are tough in the pilot market now but personally I would rather be unemployed than fly for a company like the one described by happyjacks' second cousin (twice removed of course
).
I left a company last year over concerns of a similar nature to some of those described, I was lucky - I had somewhere to go, with ratings, and it was before 11/9. I left because I could see there was no way things would change significantly enough to make me feel safe, mainly regarding training and standards.
I now regret leaving as quietly as I did!
Given the same circumstances I would write to the CAA equivalent of every country we operated to and express my concerns, including evidence that I had from other pilots too. If nothing else, if there is an accident, it will add pressure to the authorities and the company.
It may be too late for that crew/pax but it may help down the line, and stop any lip service approach to aviation safety while at the same time pushing the AOC holders line with the customers. I could not believe the difference in the service/standards between the cabin and the cockpit, all the effort went to the wrong place.
Talk about ignorance being bliss! I would be much more choosy than many multi-millionaires seem content to be.
I know times are tough in the pilot market now but personally I would rather be unemployed than fly for a company like the one described by happyjacks' second cousin (twice removed of course
).I left a company last year over concerns of a similar nature to some of those described, I was lucky - I had somewhere to go, with ratings, and it was before 11/9. I left because I could see there was no way things would change significantly enough to make me feel safe, mainly regarding training and standards.
I now regret leaving as quietly as I did!
Given the same circumstances I would write to the CAA equivalent of every country we operated to and express my concerns, including evidence that I had from other pilots too. If nothing else, if there is an accident, it will add pressure to the authorities and the company.
It may be too late for that crew/pax but it may help down the line, and stop any lip service approach to aviation safety while at the same time pushing the AOC holders line with the customers. I could not believe the difference in the service/standards between the cabin and the cockpit, all the effort went to the wrong place.
Talk about ignorance being bliss! I would be much more choosy than many multi-millionaires seem content to be.
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Fakawi
I can assure you I'm not management nor am I planning to be. No amount of money could entice me into that.
So far I've no complaints and I'm just telling how it is for me. I first answered some enquiries from someone who wanted to join and now am seen as being a company stooge!
That's what you get for helping out I suppose
I can assure you I'm not management nor am I planning to be. No amount of money could entice me into that.
So far I've no complaints and I'm just telling how it is for me. I first answered some enquiries from someone who wanted to join and now am seen as being a company stooge!
That's what you get for helping out I suppose
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Some right, some wrong
We all wish for an ideal world, but the reality is that it probably exists in another orbit.
Things are better than they appear at NJE, the infrastructure is in place and it is a learning curve for all involved.
Many things are not right, but they are being solved slowly, I have had my share of troubles and dissapointments, however at the end of the day it is not that bad.
Agreeably the Captain is at the sharp end, and improvisation is a not a MEL item, but this is the corporate world.
Things could be worse, but things could be better.
Time will tell and God forbid that accident as that will ruin more than NJE.
Things are better than they appear at NJE, the infrastructure is in place and it is a learning curve for all involved.
Many things are not right, but they are being solved slowly, I have had my share of troubles and dissapointments, however at the end of the day it is not that bad.
Agreeably the Captain is at the sharp end, and improvisation is a not a MEL item, but this is the corporate world.
Things could be worse, but things could be better.
Time will tell and God forbid that accident as that will ruin more than NJE.
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Sorry Fakawi,
it seems that we are working in different companies. Scare of speach ???? under a Fakawi or CountryBird name??? How come ??
What are you afraid of ?
No, I agree. Things are no all good at NJE but they are improving that's my feeling anyway.
About massagin duty times, never without my agreement, but again thats live. One must give with one hand to take with the other.
About airlining time to get to work or taxi time between flights not being considered, never happened to me !
Happy Landings
it seems that we are working in different companies. Scare of speach ???? under a Fakawi or CountryBird name??? How come ??
What are you afraid of ?
No, I agree. Things are no all good at NJE but they are improving that's my feeling anyway.
About massagin duty times, never without my agreement, but again thats live. One must give with one hand to take with the other.
About airlining time to get to work or taxi time between flights not being considered, never happened to me !
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Portuguese nepotism
I'm not going to make any comment about everything else because thats to much nonsense and Flinstone did a good job on is comment, but about the Portuguese Pilots nepotism in NJE and lack of carrer opportunities, that hurts.
Pilots are just pilots worst enemies.
Happy landings
Pilots are just pilots worst enemies.
Happy landings
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Ok Flanker,
If somebody ask you to reduce your show time to 01:00 instead your regular 01:30 to get you legal for that day or even for the week, thats massagin duty times, but let's be real, can't you live with that ?
Happy Landings
If somebody ask you to reduce your show time to 01:00 instead your regular 01:30 to get you legal for that day or even for the week, thats massagin duty times, but let's be real, can't you live with that ?
Happy Landings
Netjets, The Silver Lining
24 Carat! More like priceless.
What countrybird has admitted to is not only that he falsefies his duty times but the company expect and ask him to.
He/they see nothing wrong in this.
What would the authorities think?
What countrybird has admitted to is not only that he falsefies his duty times but the company expect and ask him to.
He/they see nothing wrong in this.
What would the authorities think?
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Re: Netjets, The Silver Lining
Flinstone and Happyjack
Before start with insults you both should read the ops manual.
I never said that I've accept to falsefy duty times. What I've said and you can still read it was:
There is no place were it says that the show time is other than 00:30m.
If they normally give 01:30H and ASK YOU to reduce to the LEGAL 00:30m thas what? Time engineering?. More, it's at your discretion to accept it or not because they can force but instead they ask you, whats wrong? Don't need to apologize, keep insulting.
Before start with insults you both should read the ops manual.
I never said that I've accept to falsefy duty times. What I've said and you can still read it was:
There is no place were it says that the show time is other than 00:30m.
If they normally give 01:30H and ASK YOU to reduce to the LEGAL 00:30m thas what? Time engineering?. More, it's at your discretion to accept it or not because they can force but instead they ask you, whats wrong? Don't need to apologize, keep insulting.
Last edited by CountryBird; 27th Jun 2002 at 11:17.
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What Fakawi said, and you can still read it, was that he objected to duty times being reduced retrospectively.
Your response suggested that you were supportive of such practice.
For the record, I have no objection to the reduction of the show time to 30 minutes when necessary although we all know it's unrealistic.
If you have misread Fakawi's post and are not in favour of retrospective duty time adjustment then I will withdraw my clown comment.
Clarification would be appreciated.
Your response suggested that you were supportive of such practice.
For the record, I have no objection to the reduction of the show time to 30 minutes when necessary although we all know it's unrealistic.
If you have misread Fakawi's post and are not in favour of retrospective duty time adjustment then I will withdraw my clown comment.
Clarification would be appreciated.
Last edited by Flintstone; 27th Jun 2002 at 12:53.