Flying to Bermuda... BE400A
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Flying to Bermuda... BE400A
Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on what the best plan of attack for this "adventure" is? We have an owner that wants to take his to BDA this September (peak hurricane season lol). Looks like the straight-line-distance is around 630nm and flight-planned-distance is around 750nm. Possible 'jumping-off" points would be RIC or ORF.
I have never done any kind of extended "blue-water" ops and just curious what we are in for? This a part 91 operation. For survival equipment, looks like we fall under 91.501 requirements for >100mi over open water. As far as HF radios, we have none in the aircraft but my boss thinks we can do it by renting a Satphone or an HF radio. I am looking in to using an international flight planner for our paperwork, planning etc for ETP and WetFootprint etc....
If anyone would be kind enough to provide an valuable and constructive advice, I sure would appreciate it. I'm thinking by the time you add all this up, it would be easier and cheaper to charter a more capable aircraft out of one of those points? On that note, can anyone enlighten me to a reputable charter operator?
Thanks in advance for your input
73
I have never done any kind of extended "blue-water" ops and just curious what we are in for? This a part 91 operation. For survival equipment, looks like we fall under 91.501 requirements for >100mi over open water. As far as HF radios, we have none in the aircraft but my boss thinks we can do it by renting a Satphone or an HF radio. I am looking in to using an international flight planner for our paperwork, planning etc for ETP and WetFootprint etc....
If anyone would be kind enough to provide an valuable and constructive advice, I sure would appreciate it. I'm thinking by the time you add all this up, it would be easier and cheaper to charter a more capable aircraft out of one of those points? On that note, can anyone enlighten me to a reputable charter operator?
Thanks in advance for your input
73
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There is Longtail Aviation based in Bermuda, they operate light and medium jets, friendly bunch who would give you the advice you need. They operate a Citation out of there and also have a Falcon 900 on AOC.
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Not only is HF radio/s required, you must have an approved SMS in place. For a first time flight over water, I would recommend using Universal. There are other international handlers that are somewhat cheaper, but for the first time I would still recommend Universal. After a few trips to you will learn enough that you can do Bermuda doing your own handling.
Have a good trip, it is a beautiful place with a lot of friendly people.
Have a good trip, it is a beautiful place with a lot of friendly people.
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SMS implementation in Bermuda
Kkoran, I know the question was directed to c-p, but here's an insight:
ICAO/OACI Annex 6 Part 2 private aircraft operators with a MTOW above 12,500 Lbs. are required to implement SMS unless the country of registry notifies a difference to it by the date of November 18 of 2010.
Bermuda, as an ICAO member implemented it right away, instead notify deviations or delays of implementations. All Bermuda registered aircraft and any other aircraft flying in/outbound of Bermuda have to be on compliance with this.
ICAO/OACI Annex 6 Part 2 private aircraft operators with a MTOW above 12,500 Lbs. are required to implement SMS unless the country of registry notifies a difference to it by the date of November 18 of 2010.
Bermuda, as an ICAO member implemented it right away, instead notify deviations or delays of implementations. All Bermuda registered aircraft and any other aircraft flying in/outbound of Bermuda have to be on compliance with this.
Only a humble pax but with about 150 flights into and of Bermuda, many of which were very bumpy and a good few quite scary to peopel unused to the challenges Bermudas weather can throw at the crew of even large airliners.
1 Weather-very unpredictable at any time of year
2 Wind-topology meant runway was built virtually at right angles to prevailing winds - cross winds can be very severe
3 No alternate/diversion for 700 miles. TXKF has one runway and thats it-if you cannot land you go all the way back to where you started on the east coast
This is why there is no light aviation in a place where there are lot of people with the money to own their own planes but don't because it is just too complicated by the above factors.
If you make it-have a nice time, its not what it was , no where is and if you meet any locals they are Bermudian (often pronounced Bermudjan) , not Bermudan, better get that letter I in there and alway always say good morning /afternoon/evening otherwise you will not get served/spoken to/helped etc etc
PB
1 Weather-very unpredictable at any time of year
2 Wind-topology meant runway was built virtually at right angles to prevailing winds - cross winds can be very severe
3 No alternate/diversion for 700 miles. TXKF has one runway and thats it-if you cannot land you go all the way back to where you started on the east coast
This is why there is no light aviation in a place where there are lot of people with the money to own their own planes but don't because it is just too complicated by the above factors.
If you make it-have a nice time, its not what it was , no where is and if you meet any locals they are Bermudian (often pronounced Bermudjan) , not Bermudan, better get that letter I in there and alway always say good morning /afternoon/evening otherwise you will not get served/spoken to/helped etc etc
PB
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SMS, ISO 9000...busy work..for guys that don't fly, and need to justify their jobs by writing manuals all day.
Gosh maybe I can get on board...I would never have to go flying again..
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't, writing up SOPS manual'
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't, writing up the SMS manual'
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't, writing up RVSM manual'
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't trying to get us ISO 9000 certified'
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't, Cescom discrepancy, gotta work it out'
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't, the seat belts aren't certified'
on and on and on....
Gosh maybe I can get on board...I would never have to go flying again..
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't, writing up SOPS manual'
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't, writing up the SMS manual'
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't, writing up RVSM manual'
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't trying to get us ISO 9000 certified'
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't, Cescom discrepancy, gotta work it out'
Boss 'We need to go flying'
Capt 'Can't, the seat belts aren't certified'
on and on and on....
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I find that the best preperation for most any flight into an unknown area is to take the appropriate flight planning chart (high chart if one isn't available) and read every word on every panel as far in advance as possible. It seriously amazes me how much info is found there. (and how little pilots read it).
Second, go to international operations course at Scott IPC or FSI in Savannah. I recommend FSI Savannah because they have an instructor there that only teaches IOC.
Second, go to international operations course at Scott IPC or FSI in Savannah. I recommend FSI Savannah because they have an instructor there that only teaches IOC.
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Only a humble pax but with about 150 flights into and of Bermuda, many of which were very bumpy and a good few quite scary to peopel unused to the challenges Bermudas weather can throw at the crew of even large airliners.
1 Weather-very unpredictable at any time of year
2 Wind-topology meant runway was built virtually at right angles to prevailing winds - cross winds can be very severe
3 No alternate/diversion for 700 miles. TXKF has one runway and thats it-if you cannot land you go all the way back to where you started on the east coast
1 Weather-very unpredictable at any time of year
2 Wind-topology meant runway was built virtually at right angles to prevailing winds - cross winds can be very severe
3 No alternate/diversion for 700 miles. TXKF has one runway and thats it-if you cannot land you go all the way back to where you started on the east coast
Now, as for this;
2 Wind-topology meant runway was built virtually at right angles to prevailing winds - cross winds can be very severe
Anyway, that has been my experience operating in and out of BDA.
Oh, I do need to add; on all my flights to BDA, I always had enough fuel to return to the mainland or continue on to the Azores. That is just plain good old fashion commonsense.
Wellas isaid onlya humble Pax but in the 12 years i lived there Iwould say a good 8-9 days airport closed due to high winds.
I certainlywasn't looking to put anyone off - Iwas only pointing out it can geta bit bumpy and I have been on several flights where there was quite lot of anxiety among pax who had not experienced rough weather fairly low down.
As to the other runways , well theywould be a better bet than ditching thats true but one points at the terminal building and the other has a low hill right at one end. Are they really shown as usable .
Anyway I will leave it to the experts (or as Bermudian would say Axpurts. personally iwas always interested in Operations into Bermuda as was such a regular traveller and did know it had a few oddities like the lack of alternate and if coming from Europe very strong head winds . In the BA tristar days I did short trip to London that was a record time for Bda- Lhr in around 5 hrs 10 withtthe return 2 days later taking almost 9 hours and a routing way way up north.
PB
I certainlywasn't looking to put anyone off - Iwas only pointing out it can geta bit bumpy and I have been on several flights where there was quite lot of anxiety among pax who had not experienced rough weather fairly low down.
As to the other runways , well theywould be a better bet than ditching thats true but one points at the terminal building and the other has a low hill right at one end. Are they really shown as usable .
Anyway I will leave it to the experts (or as Bermudian would say Axpurts. personally iwas always interested in Operations into Bermuda as was such a regular traveller and did know it had a few oddities like the lack of alternate and if coming from Europe very strong head winds . In the BA tristar days I did short trip to London that was a record time for Bda- Lhr in around 5 hrs 10 withtthe return 2 days later taking almost 9 hours and a routing way way up north.
PB
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in the 12 years i lived there Iwould say a good 8-9 days airport closed due to high winds.
Just kidding, it is always good and useful to receive insight from one that has lived on an island such as we are talking about.
I think one of the times I was most surprised when flying internationally was one evening when my wife and I were in Bermuda. We walked down to a local pub to have a few drinks and when I happened to look up at the TV behind the bar, there was a live OU (University of Oklahoma) football game on. As we had been out of country for about a month, it was a very pleasant surprise.
There was a case of a DL L1011 that went out, tried to wait out thunderstorms and winds, finally decided to make for the alternate--KBOS. Almost made it, they chickened out, low fuel, and landed 40 nm short at Otis AFB. It was back in the '80s.
Fickle finger
Not need to comply with ICAO Annex 6, just don't fly to BDA. Most competent operators, especially international, have everyone of those documents and train to the standards. Join the real world, please, others have to share the airspace.
GF
Fickle finger
Not need to comply with ICAO Annex 6, just don't fly to BDA. Most competent operators, especially international, have everyone of those documents and train to the standards. Join the real world, please, others have to share the airspace.
GF
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Can you get to TXKF, do a missed approach, divert, and make Richmond?
And let's not even talk about pressurization failure or flameout at the ETP.
If you fly with a wet footprint, you are, well, not doing it right.
Charter something bigger.
And let's not even talk about pressurization failure or flameout at the ETP.
If you fly with a wet footprint, you are, well, not doing it right.
Charter something bigger.
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Indeed we are chartering something capable. I knew from the start that a Beechjet can't do it safely... I just needed to get as much coo-berating info as possible to show my boss so he can show our boss. It's just plain commonsense. I want to thank everyone that gave their constructive input, much appreciated. Mabe we'll get something bigger so we can do it ourselves. Thanks again!!
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I could do Bermuda trips all day in a BE400, it's about planning...if you can't plan, then sure, you need a GV with enough fuel to get you half way around the world as a buffer against you in ability to make the BE400 get it done.
Ficklefinger
I take it the BE 400 has the range to go about 700 nm, fly the approach, miss and return 700nm with a dry footprint on the diversion? Or does it have 2 hours holding fuel after a 700 nm flight, assuming your rules allow island holding? Or are you flying to the depressurization ETP outbound and committing to landing at BDA an hour from touchdown? While the weather can be very good, most of the time, it can be very changeable and no one plans BDA w/o a diversion to the mainland, usually.
In the Citatipn II we committed approaching the TOD.
GF
I take it the BE 400 has the range to go about 700 nm, fly the approach, miss and return 700nm with a dry footprint on the diversion? Or does it have 2 hours holding fuel after a 700 nm flight, assuming your rules allow island holding? Or are you flying to the depressurization ETP outbound and committing to landing at BDA an hour from touchdown? While the weather can be very good, most of the time, it can be very changeable and no one plans BDA w/o a diversion to the mainland, usually.
In the Citatipn II we committed approaching the TOD.
GF
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I could do Bermuda trips all day in a BE400, it's about planning
AFAIK the BE400 is a 4 hr aircraft to dry tanks with FULL FUEL, 4600 lbs, what is your payload with full fuel?
Mutt
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Let's assume Mutt and Galaxy are flying this ill fated trip, but I plan it, as they can't...
4600 lbs of fuel, Two Crew, Five Pax
FL390 MQI to TXKF: 1:27 / 1823 burned
Land, don't take on fuel, load up the clown car...
Fl400 TXKF to MQI 1:24 / land with 1139 lbs
Now this assumes that after you find out half way to Bermuda, Aliens bombed the runway and you continue the flight..., and take a look and land...it also assumes you guys forgot to fuel up in Bermuda.....it also assumes that in your haste to actually fly a real plane, you forgot to pull the power back for long range fuel, and just slam the throttles forward both ways.....
4600 lbs of fuel, Two Crew, Five Pax
FL390 MQI to TXKF: 1:27 / 1823 burned
Land, don't take on fuel, load up the clown car...
Fl400 TXKF to MQI 1:24 / land with 1139 lbs
Now this assumes that after you find out half way to Bermuda, Aliens bombed the runway and you continue the flight..., and take a look and land...it also assumes you guys forgot to fuel up in Bermuda.....it also assumes that in your haste to actually fly a real plane, you forgot to pull the power back for long range fuel, and just slam the throttles forward both ways.....
Last edited by theficklefinger; 23rd Jul 2011 at 01:49.