Landing distance
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Landing distance
Hi everybody,
I have a tricky question for you.
In France if you fly an aircraft weighting more than 12500lbs you have to comply with EU OPS1 regulation even if your exploitation is private.
It means you have to factorise your landing distance as if you had an AOC.
If you consider an aircraft with N registration do you still have to factorise in private for operations in France ?
In other words do you have to comply with french or EU operationnal regulations if you fly N registered heavy acft ?
Thank you for your answers .
PT 17
I have a tricky question for you.
In France if you fly an aircraft weighting more than 12500lbs you have to comply with EU OPS1 regulation even if your exploitation is private.
It means you have to factorise your landing distance as if you had an AOC.
If you consider an aircraft with N registration do you still have to factorise in private for operations in France ?
In other words do you have to comply with french or EU operationnal regulations if you fly N registered heavy acft ?
Thank you for your answers .
PT 17
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The old adage that "If you ask two pilots, you'll hear three opinions" may apply here.
FAR 91 subpart H addresses this issue. It states that when operating an N registered aircraft, you must comply:
91.703
(2) When within a foreign country, comply with the regulations relating to the flight and maneuver of aircraft there in force;
That said, if you have an FAA certificate, you should know what the FAA requires, and adhere to the regs when able. When a conflict occurs at Fiumicino (LIRF), do as the Romans.
... welcome to the world of international flying
FAR 91 subpart H addresses this issue. It states that when operating an N registered aircraft, you must comply:
91.703
(2) When within a foreign country, comply with the regulations relating to the flight and maneuver of aircraft there in force;
That said, if you have an FAA certificate, you should know what the FAA requires, and adhere to the regs when able. When a conflict occurs at Fiumicino (LIRF), do as the Romans.
... welcome to the world of international flying
Where is the regulation published? If it is in the French Legal regulations then you must obey it. You are always covered by the law of your state of regulation and the law of the state where you are operating.
MM
MM
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In other words do you have to comply with french or EU operationnal regulations if you fly N registered heavy acft ?
If the French want you to comply with that regulation, they must obtain a waiver to the appropriate ICAO Annex. For example, the French banned all pilots over the age of 60 from flying over French airspace, as this was covered in the annex, all countries had to comply. (This was prior to the new age 65 regulation.)
It is also next to impossible to impose all EU-OPS regulations on FAA certified aircraft, for example how would you comply with regulations pertaining to contaminated runways?
Mutt
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Greets!
Miles and nopax are correct I believe, i.e., the Canadian controller says, "You are cleared for AN approach", something we never hear in the States. Been that way as long as I can remember. This is why the NBAA and handlers are so important.
I'm still surprised at the folks who get the 'deer in the headlights' look when an unusual term comes up. It might be unusual, but it shouldn't be unexpected.
Miles and nopax are correct I believe, i.e., the Canadian controller says, "You are cleared for AN approach", something we never hear in the States. Been that way as long as I can remember. This is why the NBAA and handlers are so important.
I'm still surprised at the folks who get the 'deer in the headlights' look when an unusual term comes up. It might be unusual, but it shouldn't be unexpected.
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If you consider an aircraft with N registration do you still have to factorise in private for operations in France ?
Mutt
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(2) When within a foreign country, comply with the regulations relating to the flight and maneuver of aircraft there in force;
AFAIK, you can consult the Jeppesen ATC and Emergency sections, the differences listed there must be complied with, however apart from that, FAA aircraft are certified to part 25 which differs from the JAA certification process. This can be easily seen in the MEL's, we have a FAA MEL and a JAR MEL. Applying the logic that you guys are proclaiming, we would have to comply with a JAR MEL every time we fly into Europe, and that isnt the case!
Mutt
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Having operated a N reg aircraft under a bi-lateral agreement in a foriegn country under Jar Ops with a validation, I was required to observe FAA regs, the regs of the country of validation AND the regs of the country whose airspace I was flying within, and apply the most restrictive
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Mutt:
You are expected to check up on the regulations - that is how you will "know".
Example: If I drive a car - of any country of registration - in France, I am expected to follow all the French driving regulations, understand all the road signs, and obey the speed limits. How I figure it out before I get there is my problem - and ignorance will not work as an excuse when the traffic cops pull me over.
Aviation is exactly the same. You need to read up on the rules of wherever you plan to go flying.
By the way, Jeppesen is a commercial flight guide publisher; they are not an official source of international regulations.
You are expected to check up on the regulations - that is how you will "know".
Example: If I drive a car - of any country of registration - in France, I am expected to follow all the French driving regulations, understand all the road signs, and obey the speed limits. How I figure it out before I get there is my problem - and ignorance will not work as an excuse when the traffic cops pull me over.
Aviation is exactly the same. You need to read up on the rules of wherever you plan to go flying.
By the way, Jeppesen is a commercial flight guide publisher; they are not an official source of international regulations.
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comply with the regulations relating to the flight and maneuver of aircraft there in force
1: Where can i obtain "CERTIFIED" performance data for contaminated runway operations for a FAR-25 certified aircraft?
2: If I have to comply with ALL the French/European regulations, what is the benefit of operating an aircraft under a VP/P4 or even a N registration in Europe?
Rules of the air or rules of the road, OK, but I don't have to have the car designed to European specifications.
Getting back to the original question, where is it stated that private aircraft (above 12,500 lbs) must factor their landing distance? BTW, this is one rule that we comply with due to common sense.
Mutt
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Follow the rules
Guys, the answer is simple. Every commercial pilot should know the answer to this question.
Lets imagine you are driving a British car with the steering wheel on the right on the French roads. Just because the British drive on the left and the car is set up to drive on the left AND it is registered in Britain, you wouldn't carry that rule to France?
Now, you MUST comply with the rules of where you are, you MUST comply with the rules of where your aircraft is registered and you MUST comply (if applicable) with the rules of the state your AOC is issued in. Any conflict in the rules, you always take the most limiting rule/law.
Now as for landing distance, factored or un-factored, what is the most limiting? Job done.
Lets imagine you are driving a British car with the steering wheel on the right on the French roads. Just because the British drive on the left and the car is set up to drive on the left AND it is registered in Britain, you wouldn't carry that rule to France?
Now, you MUST comply with the rules of where you are, you MUST comply with the rules of where your aircraft is registered and you MUST comply (if applicable) with the rules of the state your AOC is issued in. Any conflict in the rules, you always take the most limiting rule/law.
Now as for landing distance, factored or un-factored, what is the most limiting? Job done.
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mutt, there are no certified performance data for contaminated as far as i know, therefore all performance data except wet and dry (under EU-OPS) is advisory only and the final authority rests with the commander, meaning if he mis-judges anything he is the only one responsible.
And of course you cannot change the rules your aircraft was build to, however you have to comply with the local rules how to operate it.
And of course you cannot change the rules your aircraft was build to, however you have to comply with the local rules how to operate it.
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Every commercial pilot should know the answer to this question.
Denti, Looking at Jeppesen page Air Traffic Control (France-1) it states ... In general, French Air Traffic rules and procedures are in conformity with ICAO Standards, Recommendations and Procedures The same is stated in the Emergency section. They then go on to list differences and specific instructions pertaining to French airspace/airports. This is extremely transparent information and its easy to check our compliance
But it's the original message that intrigues me, it was mentioned that we have to comply with JAR-OPS-1 regarding landing distance. This isn't a rule nor procedure required by ICAO and it isn't listed in the two sections of Jeppesen. So where am I supposed to find this information? What other "secret regulations" exist, because once we start going down this road, where does it stop, do we need a JAA MEL?
If things go according to plan, I will be flying to Paris at the weekend and we weight quite a bit more than 12,500 lbs.
Mutt
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My statement specifically relates to knowing which set of rules to follow. Of course actually finding those set of rules in the first place is what matters.
It would be silly to talk of JAR MEL's when that is clearly a situation that relates directly to the certification and registry of an aircraft by a state and not to the operating practices used day to day.
It would be silly to talk of JAR MEL's when that is clearly a situation that relates directly to the certification and registry of an aircraft by a state and not to the operating practices used day to day.
