BHX closed due accident
Clone of Victor Meldrew
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Lets wait for the report...
Guys
I agree with the comments made by First Officer about Airbusgirl (Boeingbird?) and would add she has over ten years of experience in modern airline jets.
I recall one occasion in the hold with weather well below the cat2 minima requiered going round the hold watching the fog moving rather too slowly, finally to break off to join downwind for a visual approach to the other end of the runway!! (that Airport only had an approved procedure for one end)
Perhaps rather than start slagging people off we should all wait for the final report?
In the meanwhile I wish a rapid recovery for the crew involved.
390
I agree with the comments made by First Officer about Airbusgirl (Boeingbird?) and would add she has over ten years of experience in modern airline jets.
I recall one occasion in the hold with weather well below the cat2 minima requiered going round the hold watching the fog moving rather too slowly, finally to break off to join downwind for a visual approach to the other end of the runway!! (that Airport only had an approved procedure for one end)
Perhaps rather than start slagging people off we should all wait for the final report?
In the meanwhile I wish a rapid recovery for the crew involved.
390
Last edited by 390cruise; 20th Nov 2010 at 09:40.
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DB6
AWO is in eu-ops... you can be 125 m trained for T/O and still need the standard 550m for landing.
As for the Citation family, yes their autopilot is CAT2 capable, however a long lasting habit and beliefs, are driving people away from these approvals. ( mainly due to the fact that most of the crews are stepping into a sim once a year only, and that continuous airworthiness programs are not widespread among operators)
As for other bizjets, the lowest I did was Cat3B manual with hud on the 900, 150m/50ft minimas..
Nethertheless, this case will be clarified by the authorities, and since the crew is alive , that will help.. ( unlike the BIG accident..)
AWO is in eu-ops... you can be 125 m trained for T/O and still need the standard 550m for landing.
As for the Citation family, yes their autopilot is CAT2 capable, however a long lasting habit and beliefs, are driving people away from these approvals. ( mainly due to the fact that most of the crews are stepping into a sim once a year only, and that continuous airworthiness programs are not widespread among operators)
As for other bizjets, the lowest I did was Cat3B manual with hud on the 900, 150m/50ft minimas..
Nethertheless, this case will be clarified by the authorities, and since the crew is alive , that will help.. ( unlike the BIG accident..)
cldrvr
There appear to be ANOs
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&i d=226
As amended in April this year. Perhaps you could clarify?
There appear to be ANOs
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&i d=226
As amended in April this year. Perhaps you could clarify?
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The following link has four photographs of the airframe in the field as well as the damaged ILS GP antenna - looks like they either had a huge fire aboard already on final or it just burnt out on the ground?
Glad both pilots made it OK!
Search results from AirTeamImages.com
Glad both pilots made it OK!
Search results from AirTeamImages.com
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The Air Traffic Control Officers in the tower have instrumented RVR readings which would have been passed to the pilot. They have no discretion on otherwise reporting visibility. "Ranger guy in the landy"?? I think you are some years behind the times if you mean the counting the edge lights!
IF the crew requested the reported RVR's before the approach ban point (1000ft AAL etc) then they ARE/WERE entitled to continue the approach as long as the values were above their respective minima. From that stage untill DA, it is entirely at the discretion of the PIC to continue or discontinue the approach with respect to reported minima. Then at DA there are specific external visual references required to continue to land...or to execute a missed approach.
At any stage between DA and touchdown, loss of visual reference mandates a Go-around.
Reading between the lines here..and assuming the aircraft was servicable to commence the approach (big assumption I know).then perhaps these chaps were unfortunate enough to lose visual reference at a point where they were effectively commited to a landing....i.e. idle thrust..in the flare or touching down..etc etc.
If this is the case..then it is just about as scary scenario as it gets close to the ground.
If however they were pushing their minima, then lets the chips fall where they need to fall.
In any case, I wish the crew a speedy recovery
Guest
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Nice post haughtney, all good. I can see 2 clear scenarios here
1.they may have been on fire, decided to try and get in - it didn't work.
2.RVR dropped and continued , inside marker, hoping for visual reference.
Either way good luck to the crew I hope they recover.
1.they may have been on fire, decided to try and get in - it didn't work.
2.RVR dropped and continued , inside marker, hoping for visual reference.
Either way good luck to the crew I hope they recover.
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<<Really? Bloke in the tower? Ranger guy in the landy, where was he?>>
The Air Traffic Control Officers in the tower have instrumented RVR readings which would have been passed to the pilot. They have no discretion on otherwise reporting visibility. "Ranger guy in the landy"?? I think you are some years behind the times if you mean the counting the edge lights!
The Air Traffic Control Officers in the tower have instrumented RVR readings which would have been passed to the pilot. They have no discretion on otherwise reporting visibility. "Ranger guy in the landy"?? I think you are some years behind the times if you mean the counting the edge lights!
The only people who knew if there was thick fog on the approach/ threshold are the pilots on this approach
As far as the Ranger guy in the Landy, as has been pointed out, at Southampton that is exactly what they do, up to date me. Not only that but they also 'range' around the airport and may have been sat near the threshold at the time. I don't know if he was, I don't know if he wasn't either. So again the above quote is wrong.
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Point is, Spandex, there are certain rules about passing weather information to pilots. At some places the phrase "Unofficial observation from the tower reports....." may be used, but I doubt this is employed at Birmingham (which is where the accident occurred, not Southampton). I had a ridiculous IRVR reading at Heathrow once - the whole airfield was clear - but I was bound to read it and the pilot of an aircraft about to land said "I can see the runway clearly but I must act on the IRVR reading you have passed so I'm going around". Yes, lots of people would question that decision, but I know who I'd rather fly with and it's not the pilot who has the "let's have a look-see" attitude.
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Aviophage
Guys,
We all know this character is a troll, and a pretty vicious one at that. He has been caught out so many times, and frankly I am surprised that the mods haven't banned him. Check out his previous posts and you will see exactly what I mean
Now, a quick look at those pictures in the link reveals the aircraft to be right next to the windsock, which puts it about 600m past the threshold of 15, 250m from the glideslope antenna and about 125m from the right hand edge of the runway. Interestingly, an imaginary line between the antenna and the windsock is almost perfectly parallel to the runway.
I'm not going to speculate, I'm just glad that all of the occupants, including the liver got out in one piece and I eagerly await the AAIB report.
We all know this character is a troll, and a pretty vicious one at that. He has been caught out so many times, and frankly I am surprised that the mods haven't banned him. Check out his previous posts and you will see exactly what I mean
Now, a quick look at those pictures in the link reveals the aircraft to be right next to the windsock, which puts it about 600m past the threshold of 15, 250m from the glideslope antenna and about 125m from the right hand edge of the runway. Interestingly, an imaginary line between the antenna and the windsock is almost perfectly parallel to the runway.
I'm not going to speculate, I'm just glad that all of the occupants, including the liver got out in one piece and I eagerly await the AAIB report.
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Some very good news from AD Aviation Ltd Home Page
Our primary concern has been the safety of the air crew and we now advise they are on the road to recovery in fact one of the pilots has been discharged from hospital this morning. The transplant organ carried by the flight was recovered and was successfully transplanted to it's recipient.
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From the pictures it looks like it spun 180 degrees. It's facing North, I believe it came in on 15.
Good news about the pilots and the transplant recipient. Best wishes to all.
Good news about the pilots and the transplant recipient. Best wishes to all.
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Fire
Wing Leading Edge (Port side by the look of it) impact with the radio mast may have ruptured the fuel cell (Even though CAA Special conditions requires a strenghtened leading edge modification to be embodied to UK registerd Cessna Citation Types). This could have started the fire rather than an engine fire occuring earlier on the approach. Note from the pictures that the most intense area of fire is around the Port Wing.
Wondering how the aircraft ended up so far off the Centre Line?
Even with an engine out, with light winds I can't imagine an asymmetric approach and landing resulting in a collison with the Mast.
Nav Receiver Localiser calibration error, FMS error or LVP issue maybe??
AAIB report will make interesting reading. Hope we can all benefit from lessons learned.
However, all that matters though is that the crew are alive!
Wishing them a speedy recovery.
Good Luck for the future guys!!
Wondering how the aircraft ended up so far off the Centre Line?
Even with an engine out, with light winds I can't imagine an asymmetric approach and landing resulting in a collison with the Mast.
Nav Receiver Localiser calibration error, FMS error or LVP issue maybe??
AAIB report will make interesting reading. Hope we can all benefit from lessons learned.
However, all that matters though is that the crew are alive!
Wishing them a speedy recovery.
Good Luck for the future guys!!
aceatco, retired
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Interestingly, an imaginary line between the antenna and the windsock is almost perfectly parallel to the runway.
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Thank God the pilots are alive, irrespective of the events leading to the crash from the pictures the airport fire service did a great job in putting the fire out so quickly. Looking closely at the pictures posted earlier it would seem that the entire port side has smoke / fire damage, yet the starboard side still shows bright white paint.
Its hard to speculate on the cause, but many seem prepared to.
I was involved many years ago in a fire in a Seneca which occured in an engine on finals, I was told afterwards that the time elapsed from me declaring a Mayday to the airport fire services extinquishing the fire was minutes, however I am still haunted by the memories of heat on my back when I ran from the plane upon landing. The heat builds up with incredible speed. Its not surprising the one pilot suffered flash burns.
Its hard to speculate on the cause, but many seem prepared to.
I was involved many years ago in a fire in a Seneca which occured in an engine on finals, I was told afterwards that the time elapsed from me declaring a Mayday to the airport fire services extinquishing the fire was minutes, however I am still haunted by the memories of heat on my back when I ran from the plane upon landing. The heat builds up with incredible speed. Its not surprising the one pilot suffered flash burns.
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vintage ATCO - While it is interesting to note that the ILS GP Antenna and the Windsock are aligned to the edge of the runway CGA, I suspect the "interestingly" that Tom335uk was refering to was the fact that the aircraft continued in a straight line after hitting the ILS GP Antenna thus suggesting its track was signifcantly (at least 105 m) displaced to the right of the ILS15 Localiser during its instrument approach while below the DA with all the possible implications that observation may suggest.
Last edited by AV Flyer; 21st Nov 2010 at 15:51.
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The Kathryn Report: Up close shot of crash site and update on organ transplant: Cessna Citation Eagle II, G-VUEM, Birmingham International Airport (BHX) United Kingdom
Update and link to a photo just released on msnbc.
Update and link to a photo just released on msnbc.