Russian pilots to speak English
So, Trim, if a pilot is born and raised in country X, pays their taxes, has never had a single violation, but only speaks the native language of X, they're not allowed to fly in controlled airspace?
However if he wishes to fly in controlled airspace in country Y, he should have at least ICAO level 4 in English (or Yish). If he wishes to fly in uncontrolled airspace in country Y, he should have at least level 4 in Yish.
This has already started to happen informally around Europe - I visit uncontrolled airfields in France, Switzerland and Italy where it is clearly marked on the airfield regulations that the local language must be used - and quite rightly so. This unfortunately does not stop some visiting pilots from speaking english on the AFIS, even at the risk of locally based pilots who may not understand them.
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Sorry - my post wasn't clear. I agree that a pilot born and raised in X, who only speaks Xish, should be allowed to fly in all airspace (controlled and uncontrolled) in country X.
However if he wishes to fly in controlled airspace in country Y, he should have at least ICAO level 4 in English (or Yish). If he wishes to fly in uncontrolled airspace in country Y, he should have at least level 4 in Yish.
However if he wishes to fly in controlled airspace in country Y, he should have at least ICAO level 4 in English (or Yish). If he wishes to fly in uncontrolled airspace in country Y, he should have at least level 4 in Yish.
As I see it there are three possibilities.
1. Everyone speaks the same language, the world over, in order to have any level of pilots license, and all communication on all frequencies in all airspaces is in that one language.
2. When in X airspace, everyone speaks Xish.
3. There is more than one language spoken on the frequency.
I don't think #1 or #2 is feasible.
As I see it there are three possibilities.
1. Everyone speaks the same language, the world over, in order to have any level of pilots license, and all communication on all frequencies in all airspaces is in that one language.
2. When in X airspace, everyone speaks Xish.
3. There is more than one language spoken on the frequency.
I don't think #1 or #2 is feasible.
1. Everyone speaks the same language, the world over, in order to have any level of pilots license, and all communication on all frequencies in all airspaces is in that one language.
2. When in X airspace, everyone speaks Xish.
3. There is more than one language spoken on the frequency.
I don't think #1 or #2 is feasible.
In controlled airspace, we have to accept both English and Xish. Those pilots who don't understand Xish will have to either learn Xish, or rely on the controller for situational awareness. It is not ideal, but it is the only practical solution.
In uncontrolled airspace in country X, only Xish should be used. If you can't speak Xish to ICAO level 4, then you should not be in uncontrolled airspace.
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In uncontrolled airspace in country X, only Xish should be used. If you can't speak Xish to ICAO level 4, then you should not be in uncontrolled airspace.
I know that's true here in Oregon, and I'm sure it's true in some other parts of the world.
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In X I live in, you don't even need radio to fly in uncontrolled (class G) airspace. So what are all y'all talking about here?
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darkroomsource, and yet nobody (including FAA of said X) is saying that you should stay the f out of class G if you don't have a radio. Moreover — said FAA is pretty much saying that while radio is nice, you should have your head on a 360° swivel all the time — radio or nordo.
And it might be a tough task to explain Deaf Pilots Association that they need to understand and speak Yish just to fly in uncontrolled airspace in Y.
And it might be a tough task to explain Deaf Pilots Association that they need to understand and speak Yish just to fly in uncontrolled airspace in Y.
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OOps.
Point missed.
This thread is all about having two languages on the radio at the same time, and some have advocated having only one language at a time, indicating that is would be simple to say it is only X or Y.
I am simply arguing that it is not that simple.
You can not mandate that everyone speak the same language, because if you choose the language of the country, then international pilots must learn every language on the globe. If you choose some language Y, then you mandate that every pilot on the globe speak Y, even if they never leave their own country. OR, you accept that there will always be the possibility of two languages on the radio.
I am not saying you have to have a radio to fly in uncontrolled airspace, but rather that you can not limit people to uncontrolled or controlled airspace, just because they speak or don't speak the national or international language.
Hence, it's not as easy as saying "every pilot must speak X on the radio".
Point missed.
This thread is all about having two languages on the radio at the same time, and some have advocated having only one language at a time, indicating that is would be simple to say it is only X or Y.
I am simply arguing that it is not that simple.
You can not mandate that everyone speak the same language, because if you choose the language of the country, then international pilots must learn every language on the globe. If you choose some language Y, then you mandate that every pilot on the globe speak Y, even if they never leave their own country. OR, you accept that there will always be the possibility of two languages on the radio.
I am not saying you have to have a radio to fly in uncontrolled airspace, but rather that you can not limit people to uncontrolled or controlled airspace, just because they speak or don't speak the national or international language.
Hence, it's not as easy as saying "every pilot must speak X on the radio".
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I checked/counted last time from Changsha to Kunming which language where spoken on the radio between airliners and control/ATC. 95% was not in english. You don't believe me? Check it yourself. I was even told that 20 years ago english (or russian!) was much more used in chinese airspace than now...
International travel is international travel. Airspace sovereignty remains airspace sovereignty. Even some african and canadian crew are speaking french when flying within their respective country, so why not french within France, chinese within China, or russian within Russia. Oh wait, let me see, that's already how it works...
No fog, no snow, no wind, no human being on controls (human error is simply human), no engines (it will never be 100% reliable, engine is pruduced and maintained by human being, himself subject to errors), everybody speaking the same language everywhere, it would be perfect for safety I guess, but it wouldn't be aviation, it wouldn't even be the earth, it would be a world where people wouldn't even travel who knows.
One side we have ideology, excpectations, theories, the other side is called reality.
International travel is international travel. Airspace sovereignty remains airspace sovereignty. Even some african and canadian crew are speaking french when flying within their respective country, so why not french within France, chinese within China, or russian within Russia. Oh wait, let me see, that's already how it works...
No fog, no snow, no wind, no human being on controls (human error is simply human), no engines (it will never be 100% reliable, engine is pruduced and maintained by human being, himself subject to errors), everybody speaking the same language everywhere, it would be perfect for safety I guess, but it wouldn't be aviation, it wouldn't even be the earth, it would be a world where people wouldn't even travel who knows.
One side we have ideology, excpectations, theories, the other side is called reality.
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everybody speaking the same language everywhere, it would be perfect for safety I guess, but it wouldn't be aviation, it wouldn't even be the earth, it would be a world where people wouldn't even travel who knows
If everybody on this world would be speaking THE same language,
(and probably look THE same etc. etc. )
why would we need to travel at all ?
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If everybody on this world would be speaking THE same language, (and probably look THE same etc. etc.) why would we need to travel at all ?
Now, I'm going to put myself on the line here and discuss something I thought about when I was in flight school and I haven't discussed it with anyone yet. Here goes.
Let us all suppose we are flying in Italy, France, Spain, Germany, or any other country where English is not the standard language for aviation. Locals or those who know the local language are flying using the local language. Then someone who doesn't speak the local language chimes in in English. ATC will respond to them in English as standard. Now everyone on the frequency switches to English R/T; how does everybody knows? Those already in the frequency notice that everyone is speaking in English now, so they will start doing it as well; if someone forgets the R/T is in English now, the ATC will reply in English so the crew realises which language is being used. Those who are switching to the frequency will find out that the controller is responding them in English and everyone else is speaking in English, so they must start using English as well. Aircraft transmitting in English leaves the frequency then ATC restarts R/T in the local language via the same reasoning as the initial switch to English. Since everyone in the frequency is involved it shouldn't be easy for someone to forget which language we are all using. The "orchestra director" (so to speak) is the ATC since it will respond to all aircraft in the language used in that moment. This procedure doesn't clutter up the frequency any further by stating every now and then "attention all aircraft we are using X language now" either.
I came up with this idea when I heard controllers in Colombia would speak in Spanish to Colombian aircraft (or otherwise Spanish-speaking aircraft) using English and then the Colombian crew would reply in English making the ATC realise their mistake and retransmitting the instruction in English.
Points of "interest":
- The procedure calls for helpful and effective interaction between pilots and ATC, so it requires a remarkably good ATC-Crew coordination.
- Based on what I've read on this thread before, this procedure wouldn't be practical in uncontrolled space as some local pilots (most of them maybe?) don't speak English at all.
- All busy airports, i.e. those with permanent English speaking crews on the frequency, will maintain English R/T all the time, which is the purpose of this whole deal as those are the airports we all need to be in the same page given that there are lots of us flying in a relatively small airspace.
- The airports that will have the "hardest time" will be those with intermittent presence of English speaking crews as those are the ones with the biggest amount of "language-switches"
- Since the most amount of pressure is put on the ATC as they are the ones who are indeed "orchestrating", maybe some visual cue will be designed so they always know which language are they suppose to use. Nothing fancy really, a couple of labelled lights somewhere on the radar screen will do, a la Master Warning and Master Caution on our aircraft.
So, I shall now go over there and hide behind that trash bin waiting for your opinions/responses/whatever comes out.
Toodles chaps!
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Because this world doesn't exist.
But to answer more accurately, this is precisely the difference of culture that makes a travel interesting, at least for tourism. Automatically with the difference of culture comes the difference of language.
There is a lot of theories we can agree with to make the world better, or more simply to improve air safety travel. But we will always have to face reality. And the world is always in move, even shifting sometimes.
My point: a pilot is not here to make theories, he is here to improve safety at his own level. He flies everyday to Russia? So he has to learn russian (at least russian radiocom) if he thinks his situationnal awarness could improve. A pilot cannot change the world, but he defenitely can change himself, or at least adapt, get some language skills, this is the least we can do as we pretend to deserve above average salaries.
But honnestly, I would like to see the numbers/statistics for last year concerning crash involving language as a cause versus all the others.
But to answer more accurately, this is precisely the difference of culture that makes a travel interesting, at least for tourism. Automatically with the difference of culture comes the difference of language.
There is a lot of theories we can agree with to make the world better, or more simply to improve air safety travel. But we will always have to face reality. And the world is always in move, even shifting sometimes.
My point: a pilot is not here to make theories, he is here to improve safety at his own level. He flies everyday to Russia? So he has to learn russian (at least russian radiocom) if he thinks his situationnal awarness could improve. A pilot cannot change the world, but he defenitely can change himself, or at least adapt, get some language skills, this is the least we can do as we pretend to deserve above average salaries.
But honnestly, I would like to see the numbers/statistics for last year concerning crash involving language as a cause versus all the others.
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as a native English speaker living and flying in Germany, let me explain how it's (successfully) done here.
First of all, in all airspaces English and German can be spoken, even controlled airspace except above FL200... there only English is permissable (level 4 needed).
In controlled airspace like D or C, both languages are permissable. English is primary, but ATC converses with German pilots in German when necessary. I know of no situation where a problem occurred because a non-German speaking pilot needed to understand German... ATC takes care of situation awareness when needed (but this is Germany, not France
).
All VFR field charts are marked "en/ge" on fields where English and German are both spoken, "ge" where only German is spoken.... you don't speak German, you don't fly there.
We have many non-German speaking GA pilots stationed in Germany and they manage to fly around with no problem at all. They are permanent residents, some are simply tourists here for a short time. It works!
In a place like Europe, where so many different languages are spoken, it is not possible to learn each one just for flights to or through... thus we have the one common language, English, and that usually works fine.
Yes, I've flown to France, speak NO French, and vowed never to fly there again! At the time, they refused to speak English with me. I guess they didn't like the German registration on my aircraft.....
(enough French bashing.... sorry, I couldn't resist).
First of all, in all airspaces English and German can be spoken, even controlled airspace except above FL200... there only English is permissable (level 4 needed).
In controlled airspace like D or C, both languages are permissable. English is primary, but ATC converses with German pilots in German when necessary. I know of no situation where a problem occurred because a non-German speaking pilot needed to understand German... ATC takes care of situation awareness when needed (but this is Germany, not France
).All VFR field charts are marked "en/ge" on fields where English and German are both spoken, "ge" where only German is spoken.... you don't speak German, you don't fly there.
We have many non-German speaking GA pilots stationed in Germany and they manage to fly around with no problem at all. They are permanent residents, some are simply tourists here for a short time. It works!
In a place like Europe, where so many different languages are spoken, it is not possible to learn each one just for flights to or through... thus we have the one common language, English, and that usually works fine.
Yes, I've flown to France, speak NO French, and vowed never to fly there again! At the time, they refused to speak English with me. I guess they didn't like the German registration on my aircraft.....
(enough French bashing.... sorry, I couldn't resist).
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All VFR field charts are marked "en/ge" on fields where English and German are both spoken, "ge" where only German is spoken.... you don't speak German, you don't fly there.
And for the german registration and your english humour... Learn how UK betrayed France and Belgium and have a look at dunkirk evacuation (retreat), the most spectacular run away of the human history...
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From WestWind1950
To bad I didn't meet you in the air. I could have answer you in French or in English , and maybe a little bit of German if that helped.
By the way I love Rammstein
So yeah enough French bashing. Assh*les are everywhere
About bad communication what don't you guys talk more about Spain huh?
It is way more difficult to understand anything there.
Like the old saying >> Speaking english like a spanish cow
Cheers.
Yes, I've flown to France, speak NO French, and vowed never to fly there again! At the time, they refused to speak English with me. I guess they didn't like the German registration on my aircraft..... 
(enough French bashing.... sorry, I couldn't resist).
(enough French bashing.... sorry, I couldn't resist).
By the way I love Rammstein
So yeah enough French bashing. Assh*les are everywhere
About bad communication what don't you guys talk more about Spain huh?
It is way more difficult to understand anything there.
Like the old saying >> Speaking english like a spanish cow
Cheers.
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WESTWIND1950,
Never mind about French bashing...
We don't like to fight, but we love to defend... And we've got arguments.
I just wonder : when was "the time" you refer to ?
Things have changed a bit in the last 20 years, since I entered ATC.
To be short : English AND French can be used with any ATS in France(except a few FISOs, I guess). As said above, it's written on the charts.
There's a difference when there's no ATS at all, for obvious reasons.
A decade ago (or so), I had to land a German pilot who thought he could speak French. When I answered, he couldn't understand me. And he couldn't speak English either (he had used non-controlled airspace until he contacted me...). My aeronautical German was not good enough to work safely.
So, I made the rest of the traffic yield to him and he eventually landed safe and sound on the runway.
Finished well...
I think your "D" registration was not a problem. Had you been "G" registrated...
Yes, I've flown to France, speak NO French, and vowed never to fly there again! At the time, they refused to speak English with me. I guess they didn't like the German registration on my aircraft..... (enough French bashing.... sorry, I couldn't resist).
(enough French bashing.... sorry, I couldn't resist).
We don't like to fight, but we love to defend... And we've got arguments.
I just wonder : when was "the time" you refer to ?
Things have changed a bit in the last 20 years, since I entered ATC.
To be short : English AND French can be used with any ATS in France(except a few FISOs, I guess). As said above, it's written on the charts.
There's a difference when there's no ATS at all, for obvious reasons.
A decade ago (or so), I had to land a German pilot who thought he could speak French. When I answered, he couldn't understand me. And he couldn't speak English either (he had used non-controlled airspace until he contacted me...). My aeronautical German was not good enough to work safely.
So, I made the rest of the traffic yield to him and he eventually landed safe and sound on the runway.
Finished well...
I think your "D" registration was not a problem. Had you been "G" registrated...