Russian pilots to speak English

[Escape Path]

Now you have a national airline callsign, usually using the national language, being spoken to, as is the habit, in the national language but with nobody on board who speaks it! Again................and the penny drops

Over here we have some airlines who promote the use of English language (Native is Spanish) to practise once in a while. It's easy (and funny) to hear the ATC calling in Spanish the national aircraft doing RT in English. Sometimes the aircraft won't respond until they get it right (my personal favourite) and on some other times the aircraft will reply in English so ATC gets it right next time.

And then I remember the old Lufthansa joke: "I am a German pilot, flying a German plane in a German airport. Why do I have to speak English?"

People don't like to talk in other language when they can speak in their own language.

Surely Situational Awareness could be improved if we only speak one language but then again, everyone would have to learn how to speak English and not everyone can learn languages as fast (or as good) as others. So it would be a chaos (JFK anyone?) all over the planet. While SA is improved for those who can communicate effectively in English it is a major downturn for those who don't and even with the ICAO LPE in progress you still see things like the Swiss incident in Russia, the AeroGal close-call in JFK some months ago and a myriad of similar occurrences. Take into account that you will not have "full SA" if someone is out of the loop (the not-so-agile English speakers would be in this category) and then the whole thing sort of evens itself up.

So, we have TCAS as the final barrier before a collision, we have company frequencies to know about other airports conditions. We have managed ourselves through busy skies and sat our bottoms back onto ground in fair safety; is it worth the hassle of going through all of those changes when there are more urgent things that need to be changed (i.e. CRM, Runway Incursions, CFIT)?

P.S.: I apologise in advance for my redaction as English is not my native language

EP

[AnthonyGA]

Surely Situational Awareness could be improved if we only speak one language but then again, everyone would have to learn how to speak English and not everyone can learn languages as fast (or as good) as others.

You appear to be speaking hypothetically about something that is already mandatory. English is the required language for radio communication in international aviation—or, more specifically, all international aviators and controllers must be capable of speaking English competently.

It is true that people vary in their aptitude and (especially) their willingness to learn languages other than their native languages, but this does not mean that the requirement to use English can be set aside for pilots or controllers. Instead, it means that pilots or controllers who are unable to communicate effectively in English are not qualified to operate internationally. Like good health, English communication skills are mandatory for international aviators, not merely desirable. Increasing the number of languages used in aviation reduces safety, it does not increase it, even when there are pilots and controllers who are not fluent in English.

At the same time, at least in theory, all necessary situational awareness should be obtainable through communication with ATC alone. If it is necessary to be able to understand other pilots on frequency, then either the pilots or the controllers are doing something wrong. Understanding other pilots is not a formal requirement and thus cannot be guaranteed or depended upon, even if other pilots are speaking the same language. For the sake of safety, therefore, it must be possible to develop adequate situational awareness from ATC communications with the pilot in question alone.

It's a bit like saying that situational awareness is improved if you can see the ground. Of course that is true, but since it is not required and cannot be depended upon, a pilot who cannot maintain situational awareness without being able to see the ground has a serious problem and may not be qualified for the job (at least under conditions where the ground is not visible).

As for Mandarin Chinese, there are indeed many speakers of the language, but they are almost all in China (and many Chinese are not native speakers of Mandarin themselves). It would thus be a very poor choice for an international aviation language. The most geographically widespread language in the world is English, which is why it tends to predominate for international communication. It's a positive feedback loop, so English tends to predominate because so many people speak it, and more and more people speak it because it tends to predominate.

[mary meagher]

Keep it simple, s*****

Spoken English is fairly straightforward. But written English is a nightmare!
I've volunteered to listen to 8 year olds at the local school, learning to read.
The spelling makes no sense at all! Thorough? should be thoro! etc etc.

Spanish is much more logical, or when you come down to it, how about Latin as the international language? it used to be, for centuries! Any Latin scholars following this thread? not likely, I surmise - but I would love to see a typical ATC transmission in Latin, just for fun.

By the way, chaps, English is not only the International Language of Aviation, it is also the international language of Science. Just have a look at the instructions written in multiple languages for your new hoover (vacuum cleaner). Most of the languages take up at least TWICE the space to explain something in a simple way. And Chinese? give me a break. How many letters in that alphabet?

[Escape Path]

You appear to be speaking hypothetically about something that is already mandatory. English is the required language for radio communication in international aviation—or, more specifically, all international aviators and controllers must be capable of speaking English competently.

That is exactly my point. Domestic pilots who feel that learning English is not mandatory for them would make the whole "let's use English even if it's not our native language" thing very impractical (read unsafe) as I've seen some shameful pilots that think they can "defend themselves" with the sparse English knowledge they have and often make me faceslap myself.

Now try to get a 40-odd years old pilot to learn English while he has thought for 40-odd years that he doesn't need to speak English

EP

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by mary meagher

Any Latin scholars following this thread?

Of course

but I would love to see a typical ATC transmission in Latin, just for fun.

We went one better than that at school, we had the whole Roman Air Force.

Here come the Genitive Plural bombers overhead "Horum harum, horum harum".

Here's a heroic Nominative Singular fighter attacking them "Hic haec hoc, hic haec hoc".

[protect essential]

Flight Deck Language commonality/proficiency?

Hope the following is not too far off the thread for some, but I have grave concerns when the baseline proficiency of the language used by both operating crewmembers is not adequate (please note I didn't say it had to be English). A/C-ATC language issues will always be a problem when one flies internationally: China, Russia and most of Africa, for example.

But can we all agree that there should be a common, proficient language in use on the flight deck between crewmembers and maybe even the cabin crew (at least the Pursor)? Having spent some time at the national carrier of the country South of the 38th Parallel, it mostly doesn't exist there between foreign and local pilots. I always felt that I and the FO were never really in the same "loop" and always wondered how things would go if the "s--t really hit the fan."

[Dr. Bru]

A while back I was on approach into YUL and a storm was right near the threshold. The Dash 8 ahead and the tower were speaking in french. I could gather they were disscussing the weather but I didn't understand more then that. I feel it would have been helpful if I understood what was being said. Anyway, we went around.

[LH2]

Originally Posted by mary meagher

The spelling makes no sense at all! Thorough? should be thoro! etc etc.

That is because oral and written communications use two different semiotic systems. This is the case regardless of the language.

And Chinese? give me a break. How many letters in that alphabet?

None. Chinese does not have letters, and in consequence it neither has an alphabet. It is what now people call a semanto-phonetic script, meaning that its characters convey both meaning and sound. It does indeed make for a much larger number of symbols, but on the other hand it has the advantage of permitting communication between people who do not speak the same language, as long as their respective languages share a common script.

[CISTRS]

Rather confusingly, the written form of the Chinese language is the same in Hong Kong and Taiwan (Traditional Chinese), although the lingua franca of Hong Kong is Cantonese, and that of Taiwan is Putonghua (or another dialect, Hokkien).

Mainland China uses spoken Putonghua for business, with the written form being Simplified Chinese.

Text in either form of Chinese takes a little over half the space of the equivalent English translation at a comparable text size.

[PA-28-180]

....and things got REALLY screwed up when the world shifted from the 'old' Wade-Giles transliteration" system to the newer 'Pinyin' system of conversion - which continues to evolve.
For those who aren't familiar, this is how 'Peking' changed to 'Beijing' and 'Hong Kong' became 'Xiang-gang'.......

BTW.....'Putonghua' simply means....'common speech'......

[Mike-Bracknell]

Getting out my crystal ball and looking to the future, as you'd climb into the cockpit you'd choose your language of choice (or maybe the RFID tag on your badge would do it for you) and all the labels on the knobs/dials/screens would be written in that language. ATC comms would be sent directly to the aircraft rather than the crew, and would come up on a display, removing the possibility of erroneous "did he say that"s.

In the meantime, if any Russian pilots want to get trained in English in return for some advantageous rates on airfreight, my wife would be only too keen to train them.

[Captain Dart]

If true, I applaud the Russians for making English standard.

I suppose altitudes/flight levels in feet and use of QNH is out of the question...

[ve3id]

Whatever language you choose, speak it clearly

Going into Montreal Pierre Trudeau one day, I had to ask my co-pilot if "Hoscar" is the phonetic for "O' or 'H'

Same with " 'otel"

Funny thing with language in Canada, when I did my ICAO English test I naturally passed being a native English speaker, but when I tried to ask the same person if I could be qualified in French (speaking to her in Parisian French, not joual) she asked me if I was 'expert'. So why should I have to be level 6 in my second language when I only need level 4 to qualify?

Needless to say I only have English on my licence, but it doesn't stop me thinking in French when the wx turns nasty. Merde is universal

[darkroomsource]

I would like to be asking you all a question of some level of importance in my mind. If I am being talking on the radio in what is definitely being defined as correct english, and I am having what can only be being defined as a strong accent of which it is coming from an area of the world in which we are being responsible for being answering the telephone questions from some companies that are being major corporations in the United States of America, wel I am being wondering if my being talking like this on the radio is being helpful in your attempt to be understanding the situational awareness that you are being so fond of referring to?

My second question is going to be a little longer than my first question was, in which I asked if my talking in english which is sufficient for my being able to be receiving an ICAO english proficiency level of four, so I am being apologetic in advance for being taking so much of your precious time while I am being asking this question. Have you ever been having a conversation with one of these service companies that are being responsible for being answering the telephone and being answering the questions from customers who are being having problems with their bank accounts, or are being having problems with there technological devices? If you have been involved in being having a conversaion with one of these services have you ever been finding yourself being asking the question "Does anyone there speak english?"

Point?
I would obviously be much better if we all understood everything that is said on frequency. However, some of the people on frequency might have absolutely no clue as to what is said if it's not said in their native language, even if they qualify for an ICAO 4 english endorsement.

Ideally, every one must speak perfect English in order to obtain a PPL in any nation. Specifically, they must have grown up on the west coast of the USA, so that their accent is not too hard for ME to understand, and they obviously will understand me and know to give me priority in any operation. This also would reduce the number of pilots worldwide, thus solving the "pilot shortage" problem at the same time - those of us who grew up on the West Coast would all be able to get jobs... (is there a smiley for sarcasm?)

In reality, if you're flying somewhere where the native language is something you don't understand, you must be prepared to have less situational awareness of everything on frequency, and you must trust that ATC will communicate with you everything that is important to you.

If you don't like that, then I suggest you retire, and do your part to solve the "pilot shortage" problem. (sarcasm again).

[BusyB]

A very recent incident concerned an aircraft from my company hearing a clearance for another aircraft to fly opposite direction on the same airway at the same FL. If ATC had not been speaking in English this error would not have been picked up before a TCAS incident/accident.

I find it inconceivable that any sane person can claim that two languages can be safer than one

[His dudeness]

If true, I applaud the Russians for making English standard.

I suppose altitudes/flight levels in feet and use of QNH is out of the question...

I guess thats as likely as the british driving on the right (right!!!) side of the road...

I dunno if somebody has mentioned it, but english is (IMO) the easiest to learn language I have come across. And its fairly easy to get the info/command/meaning/etc over quickly.

To me, thats 2 very good reasons to make english mandatory around the globe (in aviation). I´m not a native english speaker...

[PA-28-180]

" I dunno if somebody has mentioned it, but english is (IMO) the easiest to learn language I have come across. "

Having taught English internationally since 1995, I'm not sure if I would say English is 'easiest' to learn....but it certainly is EASIER than many other languages.

The problem is training to a 'minimum standard', i.e., standard radio calls....but what happens when something NON-standard occurs?
I've personally had students that weren't even familiar with the English alphabet - and 6 months later scored an 80/120 on the TOEFL exam (Test of English as a Foreign Language).....so it CAN be done....if the relevant authorities WANT it to be done!

[Green Guard]

Happy New Year

Ever wonder why people have trouble learning the English language --
THIS IS GREAT!!!
Read all the way to the end............... This took a lot of work to put together!!!
You think English is easy???

1) The bandage was wound around the wound.

2) The farm was used to produce the produce .

3) The dump was full, so we had to refuse more refuse.

4) We must polish the Polish furniture.

5) He could lead if he would get the lead out.

6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.

7) Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.

8) A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.

9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.

10) I did not object to the object.

11) The insurance was invalid for that invalid.

12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row

13) They were too close to the door to close it.

14) The buck does funny things when the does are present.

15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.

16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.

17) The wind was too strong for us to wind the sail.

18) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear..

19) I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.

20) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?

21) If margarine is pronounced marjorine, why garden is not jorden, and Margarete a Marjorete ?

22) W is spelled Double U, Why not Double V ? It does not look like UU !!!
Since “ W ” is “double U”, then WWW must be “6U” !!!!!!

Let's face it - English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant, nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple.
English muffins weren't invented in England nor French fries in France .. Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat. We take English for granted. But if we explore its paradoxes, we find that quicksand does work slowly, boxing rings are square and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig.

And why is it that writers write but fingers don't fing, grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham? If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural of booth, beeth?
One goose, 2 geese.. So one moose, 2 meese?
One index, 2 indices? It seem crazy that you can make amends but never 1 single amend?
If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one of them, what do you call it?

If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught?
If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?
Sometimes I think all the English speakers should be committed to an asylum for the verbally insane. In what language do people recite at a play and play at a recital?
Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have noses that run and feet that smell?

One good explanation about English to Russian students was: “ Well we have rules, but we more exceptions, and in any case you speak English simply so as you like it…”

How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same,
while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites ?
You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language
in which your house can burn up as it burns down,
in which you fill in a form by filling it out and in which, an alarm goes off by going on.

English was invented by people, not computers, and it reflects the creativity of the human race, which, of course, is not a race at all. That is why, when the stars are out, they are visible,
but when the lights are out, they are invisible.

PS. - Why doesn't 'Buick' rhyme with 'quick' ?


You lovers of the English language might enjoy this ..

There is a two-letter word that perhaps has more meanings than any other
two-letter word, and that is 'UP..'

It's easy to understand
UP, meaning toward the sky or at the top of the list, but when we stop sleeping in the morning,
why do we wake UP ? At a meeting, why does a topic come UP ? Why do we speak UP and why are the officers UP for election and why is it UP to the secretary to write UP a report?

We call UP our friends. And we use it to brighten UP a room, polish UP the silver; we warm UP the leftovers and clean UP the kitchen. We lock UP the house and some guys fix UP the old car.
At other times the little word has real special meaning. People stir UP trouble, or line UP for tickets, work UP an appetite, and think UP excuses.
To be dressed is one thing, but to be dressed UP is special.

And this UP is confusing: A drain must be opened UP because it is stopped UP.
We open UP a store in the morning but we close it UP at night.

We seem to be pretty mixed
UP about UP! To be knowledgeable about the proper uses of UP, look the word UP in the dictionary. In a desk-sized dictionary, it takes UP almost 1/4th of the page and can add UP to about thirty definitions. If you are UP to it, you might try building UP a list of the many ways UP is used. It will take UP a lot of your time, but if you don't give UP, you may wind UP with a hundred or more. When it threatens to rain, we say it is clouding UP
When the sun comes out we say it is clearing UP...

When it rains, it wets the earth and often messes things UP.
When it doesn't rain for awhile, things dry UP.
One could go on and on, but I'll wrap it UP, for now my time is UP,
so......it is time to shut UP!

Oh . . . one more thing:

What is the first thing you do in the morning & the last thing you do at night ?

U-P

[PA-28-180]

" You think English is easy??? "

No....it's not particularly 'easy' - NO language is. However, all language boils down to, is SOUNDS. If a language is taught in the manner that the human brain 'expects', i.e., a straight forward step by step process, the same as a baby does in ANY language....then it CAN be accomplished.
The problem is that there are NO shortcuts and NO magic. Too many programs are simply training phraseology....which, in my opinion, is a waste of time and resources....as I wrote, there ARE effective ways to do it, IF the relevant authorities AND students wish it.

P.S. I've been doing exactly this internationally since 1995, so I KNOW it can be accomplished.

[zondaracer]

Excerpt from a news article:

English words — like "clove" and "love," or "cough" and "bough" — that are spelled similarly, but sound different, often puzzle school children who are learning to read, because each word pair can be pronounced correctly only if it has been learned previously. For dyslexics, irregularly spelled words in French and English can be tricky throughout life.
In English, there are 1,120 ways to create some 40 sounds, whereas in Italian, only 33 combinations of letters are needed to make 25 sounds, according to the research.

My dad always complained and said French spelling doesn´t make sense, and I said that it makes more sense than English! French has 250+ ways to spell 32 different sounds. I was teaching English to a native Spanish speaker who couldn´t hear the difference between cheap, chip, ship, sheep. All four words sounded the same to her. It´s no wonder there are spelling bees in English. English is pretty difficult to learn

I was working with the Colombian Air Force in 2008 when they received a mandate to start using English for all ATC on Fridays and Sundays, and there were a bunch of guys asking if I had a copy of any documents with standard RT phraseology.