EASA N reg and AOPA Latest
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I have to agree with Thomas. I had a chat with an intelligent friend of mine who has just completed half the JAA ATPL writtens, and he says, like most graduates of the system, that he can't remember any of what he studied. Though he probably CAN remember bits of it, I feel that most of it is such utter garbage that the JAA system is potentially less safe than the FAA. Most of what I studied for my FAA ATP was relevent to operating as a pilot. From my dim and distant memory of CAA writtens, who the hell cares whether a gyro is earth, tied or space? It simply doesn't matter! Who cares about whether a chart is a Mercator? It makes no difference. If I thought that conning the JAA system would improve anyone's performance as a pilot, I'd argue in favour of it. It doesn't, though, and the rather cap doffing compliance which some on this thread advocate is a pity. The JAA system is a con to draw more money from trainee pilots. I'm off anyway. This continent is in terminal decline, bowed down by social costs and, funnily enough, petty beaurocracy.
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I'm a FAA kind'a guy, always have been. The JAA PPL single and multi I earned a few years ago enlightened me to the system, reinforced by my JAA colleagues in the UK reassuring me that a good portion of information required for their qualifications is bollocks. Why do you clutter your cranium with so much **** you will not use?!
I was flight trained at an early age in the FAA system with subsequent training in the US Air Force, followed by upgrades to instructor and ATP via the FAA system. All training and evaulations were professional and relevant, applying firsthand the knowledge to flying skills.
For EASA to require FAA certificated airmen to adhere to such a bloated bureaucratic admistrative (and costly) drill is ludicrous. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail.
As many inputs to this thread have reiterated, there is no evidence that JAA training requirements are safer than FAA. Does a fund generating gesture come to mind? Simply bureaucratic BS.
Bingo
I was flight trained at an early age in the FAA system with subsequent training in the US Air Force, followed by upgrades to instructor and ATP via the FAA system. All training and evaulations were professional and relevant, applying firsthand the knowledge to flying skills.
For EASA to require FAA certificated airmen to adhere to such a bloated bureaucratic admistrative (and costly) drill is ludicrous. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail.
As many inputs to this thread have reiterated, there is no evidence that JAA training requirements are safer than FAA. Does a fund generating gesture come to mind? Simply bureaucratic BS.
Bingo
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Whether FAA is better then JAA who cares. If the powers that are to be decide to change the rules then it is irrelevant which system is better!
I just don't understand why you guys just can't sit down and just study the 14 ground exams like the rest of us have done!
I just don't understand why you guys just can't sit down and just study the 14 ground exams like the rest of us have done!
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DRJ,
The issue is not to sit the 14 exams, it is the overextension of the bureacracy in the EU that now mandates all N-reg a/c in the EU for an arbritary amount of time or flown by EU "residents" only te be flown when on a EASA license. So now in effect EASA is regulating the pilots while the FAA regulates the airframe they fly on.
Utter madness.
The issue is not to sit the 14 exams, it is the overextension of the bureacracy in the EU that now mandates all N-reg a/c in the EU for an arbritary amount of time or flown by EU "residents" only te be flown when on a EASA license. So now in effect EASA is regulating the pilots while the FAA regulates the airframe they fly on.
Utter madness.
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"I just don't understand why you guys just can't sit down and just study the 14 ground exams like the rest of us have done!"
Well I will tell you what I dont understand, why, when FAA pilots are not competing with JAR/EASA pilots for jobs in the EU, and from what I read here, the JAA/EASA pilots have no interest in getting a FAA licence (or do they?) and competing for the non EU reg jobs, why are the EU pilots so happy about seeing their fellow pilots put through huge expense and/or possibly losing their livling over an obviously non safety issue. Could it be that many of our "fellow pilots" see an advantage here, that they could gain a job market at the expense of others?
As far as any tax advatages are concerned, we all maximise our abilty to save on tax, tax avoidance is perfectly legitimate, tax evasion is not. Whoever you work for, their ability to avoid taxes may well enable your salary, remove that ability and your salary may well be next.
Live and let live.
Well I will tell you what I dont understand, why, when FAA pilots are not competing with JAR/EASA pilots for jobs in the EU, and from what I read here, the JAA/EASA pilots have no interest in getting a FAA licence (or do they?) and competing for the non EU reg jobs, why are the EU pilots so happy about seeing their fellow pilots put through huge expense and/or possibly losing their livling over an obviously non safety issue. Could it be that many of our "fellow pilots" see an advantage here, that they could gain a job market at the expense of others?
As far as any tax advatages are concerned, we all maximise our abilty to save on tax, tax avoidance is perfectly legitimate, tax evasion is not. Whoever you work for, their ability to avoid taxes may well enable your salary, remove that ability and your salary may well be next.
Live and let live.
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Nuname - You make some valid points.
I have FAA and JAA but have never used my FAA ticket for work.
Has the thought crossed my mind about using the FAA ticket for work, yes , but I never have.
Is the change in rules going to improve my chances of getting a job who knows.
At the moment I am not competing for jobs with guys who only hold the FAA ticket. If there is a change in rules and you convert your licences now we are potential competing for the same job.
Wouldn't the owners of your aircraft pay for JAA training. I dont know how you convert FAA but wouldn't it just be the 14 ground exams and an ATPL skill test which is in essence an LPC?
I have FAA and JAA but have never used my FAA ticket for work.
Has the thought crossed my mind about using the FAA ticket for work, yes , but I never have.
Is the change in rules going to improve my chances of getting a job who knows.
At the moment I am not competing for jobs with guys who only hold the FAA ticket. If there is a change in rules and you convert your licences now we are potential competing for the same job.
Wouldn't the owners of your aircraft pay for JAA training. I dont know how you convert FAA but wouldn't it just be the 14 ground exams and an ATPL skill test which is in essence an LPC?
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Hi Dr. I already have a CAA CPL but never used it, I'm too bloody old too worry about getting more licences and work mainly outside the EU anyway, I can also easily get non EU residence so to hell with it. Its the whole principle about it that gets up my nose, protectionism.
I have followed this thread and similar ones quietly, and now I would like to add my thoughts.
If you live in the UK, there is a very high probability that your GP did not train & originally qualify in the UK, probably not even in Europe. When a foreign Dr wants to practice in the UK he/she must undertake a language proficiency test and a check of their medical competancy. They can then go onto the medical register and work in the UK. They DO NOT have to sit all of their medical exams again. Why should pilots have to go back to square one and sit the 14 theoretical exams? Yes, there are a few medics that slip through the net who are a danger, but its the same in aviation and in all other walks of life. All that is required & should be required of non euro licence holders to convert is an unbiased practical proficiency test with a TRE/IRE. You can either fly the aircraft safely or you cant. End of story.
While i'm on the subject, it amuses and irritates me in equal measure when people bang on about 200 hr cadets being a liability and a danger in the RHS of airliners. Everyone has to start somewhere. They just need supervision and BA had hundreds of such cadets and it was never an issue for 40 years. Much more of a concern are the pilots (trained on either side of the Atlantic) who despite thousands of flying hours still CANNOT operate an aircraft professionally. I will illustrate my point. We recruited a new first officer for our aircraft. He was an ex RAF Tornado driver, with "combat" experience (not much use on a bizjet, not much use for anything except errmm combat...) he had obtained a JAA compliant ATPL (no doubt with a bit of assistance from HM taxpayer....to help him "transition" to civilian life) I assume he had therefore passed his 14 exams, GFT IR flights and would be a very capable top drawer clever dick etc etc. He was very affable, well presented and had shoes that were polished to the point of perversion. Heres the rub... He could NOT trim the aircraft properly in flight (a Hawker 800, not exactly difficult) Maybe they dont have stab trim on Tornados.....i don't know. We let him go. Maybe hes flying an Airbus now where it trims itself. European licenses are the aviation gold standard? Crap. Thankyou and goodnight.
If you live in the UK, there is a very high probability that your GP did not train & originally qualify in the UK, probably not even in Europe. When a foreign Dr wants to practice in the UK he/she must undertake a language proficiency test and a check of their medical competancy. They can then go onto the medical register and work in the UK. They DO NOT have to sit all of their medical exams again. Why should pilots have to go back to square one and sit the 14 theoretical exams? Yes, there are a few medics that slip through the net who are a danger, but its the same in aviation and in all other walks of life. All that is required & should be required of non euro licence holders to convert is an unbiased practical proficiency test with a TRE/IRE. You can either fly the aircraft safely or you cant. End of story.
While i'm on the subject, it amuses and irritates me in equal measure when people bang on about 200 hr cadets being a liability and a danger in the RHS of airliners. Everyone has to start somewhere. They just need supervision and BA had hundreds of such cadets and it was never an issue for 40 years. Much more of a concern are the pilots (trained on either side of the Atlantic) who despite thousands of flying hours still CANNOT operate an aircraft professionally. I will illustrate my point. We recruited a new first officer for our aircraft. He was an ex RAF Tornado driver, with "combat" experience (not much use on a bizjet, not much use for anything except errmm combat...) he had obtained a JAA compliant ATPL (no doubt with a bit of assistance from HM taxpayer....to help him "transition" to civilian life) I assume he had therefore passed his 14 exams, GFT IR flights and would be a very capable top drawer clever dick etc etc. He was very affable, well presented and had shoes that were polished to the point of perversion. Heres the rub... He could NOT trim the aircraft properly in flight (a Hawker 800, not exactly difficult) Maybe they dont have stab trim on Tornados.....i don't know. We let him go. Maybe hes flying an Airbus now where it trims itself. European licenses are the aviation gold standard? Crap. Thankyou and goodnight.
Last edited by Private jet; 16th Nov 2010 at 21:46.
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I just don't understand why you guys just can't sit down and just study the 14 ground exams like the rest of us have done!
I would then have to spend thousands on flight training again almost treated like a novice PPL.
Why??? complete madness.
All I should have to do at most is sit a differences exam and fly an IR flight test I either pass it or fail it (never failed a flight test in my life) not learn about how many millions of molecules make up a screen the old grey matter isnt up to that anymore neither is the inclination or motivation.
All the statistics show NO difference in quality between FAA ATP and JAA ATP so why all this crazy madness?
In most areas of law established practice becomes a legal right FAA has been operating legally in Europe for over 30 years yet we are supposed to loose our jobs and find a fortune at the whim of a pen pusher in Brussels while he /she is thinking what to do next week to justify that job over another expensive paid lunch and bottle of wine.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 17th Nov 2010 at 08:52.
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Pace,
I can understand your frustration of having to go through this rigmarole, especially for those who are a certain age where their too young to retire and too old for exams they have my full symphahy.
But look on the bright side, least your owners can pay for your conversion unlike myself and many others who had to pay for it out of their own hard earned cash!
I can understand your frustration of having to go through this rigmarole, especially for those who are a certain age where their too young to retire and too old for exams they have my full symphahy.
But look on the bright side, least your owners can pay for your conversion unlike myself and many others who had to pay for it out of their own hard earned cash!
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DrJones
I know that some people like to say that the FAA ATPL comes in a cornflake box, but that "cornflake box" still costs a pretty penny, it was not a gift and it was not free. As far as the owners paying for conversion, that will be a tough one, its not only the money its the time and disruption to the operation while our jobs go out on the market.
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DrJones
Firstly I cannot take 6 months off if I do some other pilot will be sitting in my seat when I get back
But I ask why 14 exams filled with a load of irrelavant material? Why not a differences exam and a straight IR flight test?
Heavy Iron jet pilots are allowed a much simpler conversion so why not lighter Iron jet pilots?
EASA had an opportunity not just with N reg to look at why so many have gone FAA and to put something in place just as attractive.
They had the opportunity to lighten the weight on all aspects of European aviation so that all those areas of aviation became lighter and healthier not obese with regulations and costs.
Sadly its all about EASAs own survival and expensive expense accounts, politics and protectionism certainly not their mandate SAFETY!
Is taking thousands of FAA IR PPLs and forcing them to fly VFR a safety move? NO that will lead to deaths as in France which has no IMCR or easier IR and has such a high VFR fatality record.
This is all about EASA which should be a SAFETY organisation? EASA needs to regulate on safety only.
All those AOC OPS and flight schools who have been crushed into the ground with costs and run to their regulator who have caused their situation looking for protection are fighting the wrong battle maybe sometime they will realise that.
Pace
Firstly I cannot take 6 months off if I do some other pilot will be sitting in my seat when I get back
But I ask why 14 exams filled with a load of irrelavant material? Why not a differences exam and a straight IR flight test?
Heavy Iron jet pilots are allowed a much simpler conversion so why not lighter Iron jet pilots?
EASA had an opportunity not just with N reg to look at why so many have gone FAA and to put something in place just as attractive.
They had the opportunity to lighten the weight on all aspects of European aviation so that all those areas of aviation became lighter and healthier not obese with regulations and costs.
Sadly its all about EASAs own survival and expensive expense accounts, politics and protectionism certainly not their mandate SAFETY!
Is taking thousands of FAA IR PPLs and forcing them to fly VFR a safety move? NO that will lead to deaths as in France which has no IMCR or easier IR and has such a high VFR fatality record.
This is all about EASA which should be a SAFETY organisation? EASA needs to regulate on safety only.
All those AOC OPS and flight schools who have been crushed into the ground with costs and run to their regulator who have caused their situation looking for protection are fighting the wrong battle maybe sometime they will realise that.
Pace
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Nuname
For the record I don't think the FAA ticket comes in a corn flake box or it is inferior to the JAA system. My FAA IR was way harder then the JAA IR - Oral then three back to back approaches where one is a partial panel radar vectored ILS - thats not easy!
But the CPL/IR FAA ticket compared to the JAA F(APTL) is considerably cheaper - I would go as far to say that you pay a 1/3rd of the price - thats what I paid!
Pace
I have to disagree with your comment regarding the Heavy Iron Jet pilots doing a simpler conversion couse. There were guys on my course from MK airlines who had to do all 14 ground exams because they put a 'G' on the back of their 747's! Some of the guys were quite old , and I felt sorry for them.
Also MK I think had one years grace to get all their pilots JAA'd. So something for you to look into and hopefully your employers will be understanding.
The ground exams are not too bad if you get you head down and get the online question bank from Bristol it shouldn't take too long.
For the record I don't think the FAA ticket comes in a corn flake box or it is inferior to the JAA system. My FAA IR was way harder then the JAA IR - Oral then three back to back approaches where one is a partial panel radar vectored ILS - thats not easy!
But the CPL/IR FAA ticket compared to the JAA F(APTL) is considerably cheaper - I would go as far to say that you pay a 1/3rd of the price - thats what I paid!
Pace
I have to disagree with your comment regarding the Heavy Iron Jet pilots doing a simpler conversion couse. There were guys on my course from MK airlines who had to do all 14 ground exams because they put a 'G' on the back of their 747's! Some of the guys were quite old , and I felt sorry for them.
Also MK I think had one years grace to get all their pilots JAA'd. So something for you to look into and hopefully your employers will be understanding.
The ground exams are not too bad if you get you head down and get the online question bank from Bristol it shouldn't take too long.
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Dr Jones, your comparison with your MK Airlines colleagues doesn't make sense. You said it was because a "G" reg was painted on the back of the 747 that they took the 14 exams, not an "N" or other non EU reg.
We are talking about a completely different situation.The ridiculous proposal is aimed at pilots flying "N" or other non EU reg Aircraft in Europe. Quite simply why should we take 14 written exams when we are adhering to the legal licencing laws under FAA to fly our Aircraft with an "N" FAA reg on the back.
Now, I haven't ever seen the FAR's containing a section that stipulates that an FAA licenced pilot who legally flies an FAA "N" reg Aircraft should also have a JAA licence. Why ? quite simply it's as ridiculous as asking a JAA licenced pilot who flies G reg Aircraft to hold an FAA licence
We are talking about a completely different situation.The ridiculous proposal is aimed at pilots flying "N" or other non EU reg Aircraft in Europe. Quite simply why should we take 14 written exams when we are adhering to the legal licencing laws under FAA to fly our Aircraft with an "N" FAA reg on the back.
Now, I haven't ever seen the FAR's containing a section that stipulates that an FAA licenced pilot who legally flies an FAA "N" reg Aircraft should also have a JAA licence. Why ? quite simply it's as ridiculous as asking a JAA licenced pilot who flies G reg Aircraft to hold an FAA licence
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Oh and Dr Jones your comment about "hopefully your employers will be understanding" was humorous 
Errr, no would be the answer to that. 6 months off work in corporate is a no no. If this gets passed through as law then the lawsuits will be flying, as this will shatter livelihoods for many pilots who have been flying "N" reg safely for years.
Errr, no would be the answer to that. 6 months off work in corporate is a no no. If this gets passed through as law then the lawsuits will be flying, as this will shatter livelihoods for many pilots who have been flying "N" reg safely for years.
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Thomascl605
I dont fully understand the ins and the outs of this whole proposal.
But from post it would imply that you need an FAA ticket to fly it, and a JAA ticket to fly it in Europe - so in the future to fly N Reg aircraft in Europe you will need FAA and JAA tickets.
If thats the case apologies - I thought they had to re-register the aircraft as G reg
I dont fully understand the ins and the outs of this whole proposal.
But from post it would imply that you need an FAA ticket to fly it, and a JAA ticket to fly it in Europe - so in the future to fly N Reg aircraft in Europe you will need FAA and JAA tickets.
If thats the case apologies - I thought they had to re-register the aircraft as G reg
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DRJ, so let's get this straight, you have been going on defending the EU proposal, but you never bothered to read it or any of the posts in this thread?
Good thing you are not flying in my outfit.
I have both FAA and JAR tickets so this does not affect me, however I am wholly against this ridiculous proposal and will do anything in my power to object to it, publicly here, with my MP and my MEP.
Good thing you are not flying in my outfit.
I have both FAA and JAR tickets so this does not affect me, however I am wholly against this ridiculous proposal and will do anything in my power to object to it, publicly here, with my MP and my MEP.