Safety pilot's?
There wasn't really a thrust, as such, Charley - I didn't word my last post too well, did I? It was more intended to be a question, and thanks for the info you've provided. Like I said SPA are not on my personal map; I'm familiar with Sec 5/Pt 2 but rarely ponder Table 14 as we only operate jets.
All of which is of course completely moot as the original poster makes no mention of wanting to do anything either PT or CAT, or of any particular type, interesting though the direction the discussion has taken might be!
All of which is of course completely moot as the original poster makes no mention of wanting to do anything either PT or CAT, or of any particular type, interesting though the direction the discussion has taken might be!
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Perhaps 'safety pilot' is the issue?
I think the issue's raised here might be influenced by the title 'Safety Pilot'
There are a few operators of single pilot a/c who fly with a second pilot in the r/h seat to ease the minds of the passengers. This is usually at least a PPL or more likely a CPL. I did this myself for a year or so whilst instructing and I gained a useful insight into public transport operations. On empty sectors I was allowed to fly P1 and therefore increase my piston twin time. All of this was very useful indeed and in my case I was fortunate enough to get paid for each flight.
As this type of flying does not (can not afford to) generally pay r/h seat pilots what is the harm in flying in the r/h seat unpaid? The pilot gains valuable experience which will help him further his career (in my case I was offered a full time position within the same company).
Regarding the matter of multi crew operation a 'safety pilot' is no substitute. Multi crew requires both pilots to be rated (if need be) and operate to company SOP's and comply with the AOC. Simply placing a second pilot in the r/h seat will not do.
I fly a B200 that is always operated with two type rated pilots and it is not allowed to fly single crew on public transport under any circumstance.
So then.......I say cut Wodka some slack and let him get on with it
UTF
There are a few operators of single pilot a/c who fly with a second pilot in the r/h seat to ease the minds of the passengers. This is usually at least a PPL or more likely a CPL. I did this myself for a year or so whilst instructing and I gained a useful insight into public transport operations. On empty sectors I was allowed to fly P1 and therefore increase my piston twin time. All of this was very useful indeed and in my case I was fortunate enough to get paid for each flight.
As this type of flying does not (can not afford to) generally pay r/h seat pilots what is the harm in flying in the r/h seat unpaid? The pilot gains valuable experience which will help him further his career (in my case I was offered a full time position within the same company).
Regarding the matter of multi crew operation a 'safety pilot' is no substitute. Multi crew requires both pilots to be rated (if need be) and operate to company SOP's and comply with the AOC. Simply placing a second pilot in the r/h seat will not do.
I fly a B200 that is always operated with two type rated pilots and it is not allowed to fly single crew on public transport under any circumstance.
So then.......I say cut Wodka some slack and let him get on with it
UTF
Sepp, no problem! I'm just glad I didn't miss your point somehow...
The whole subject raises some interesting points. Usedtofly, you say that you fly a B200 with two pilots and must do so when flying Public Transport. Given the PT reference, I assume that it is not in accordance with EU-OPS 1, as described by Don Coyote...? In other words, is it actually genuine multi-crew time in that the PIC and P2 both log the hours? Are you flying CAT or 'aerial work'?
I was under the impression that there's only one company in the UK that is required to operate the B200 in a true multi-crew fashion, that being Flight Precision, due to the nature of their work. All the other B200 operators I know operate single-crew (at least only one guy logging the hours) i.a.w. EU Ops, but I have a somewhat limited exposure to the King Air market.
The whole subject raises some interesting points. Usedtofly, you say that you fly a B200 with two pilots and must do so when flying Public Transport. Given the PT reference, I assume that it is not in accordance with EU-OPS 1, as described by Don Coyote...? In other words, is it actually genuine multi-crew time in that the PIC and P2 both log the hours? Are you flying CAT or 'aerial work'?
I was under the impression that there's only one company in the UK that is required to operate the B200 in a true multi-crew fashion, that being Flight Precision, due to the nature of their work. All the other B200 operators I know operate single-crew (at least only one guy logging the hours) i.a.w. EU Ops, but I have a somewhat limited exposure to the King Air market.
UTF - couldn't agree more!
Charley - that's my understanding, also.
Charley - that's my understanding, also.
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Hi Charley,
I could tell you but then I would have to kill you
We do operate to EU OPS and yes both pilots log the flight time. For my sins I happen to sit in the l/h seat.
An interesting point tho................our F.O's have multi pilot I/R's whereas Captains also have single pilot I/R's in case the aircraft have to be positioned empty.
Don't shoot me, I was only trying to help Wodka
UTF
I could tell you but then I would have to kill you
We do operate to EU OPS and yes both pilots log the flight time. For my sins I happen to sit in the l/h seat.
An interesting point tho................our F.O's have multi pilot I/R's whereas Captains also have single pilot I/R's in case the aircraft have to be positioned empty.
Don't shoot me, I was only trying to help Wodka
UTF
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Usedtofly said,
Would the passengers feel better if they knew that one of the pilots had neither been properly trained to operate the aircraft nor held a valid licence to operate the aircraft multi-pilot? I assume you wore uniform complete with gold bars to ensure that the passengers thought they had two qualified pilots as flight crew.
Also, how could you increase your piston time unless you were qualified on the class/type or flying with an instructor?
Did you hold a PPL or a CPL when you were paid for each flight?
No problem at all if he is properly trained and qualified, I am sure that all operators would prefer their pilots to come free of charge.
I totally agree.
Sorry usedtofly, the above is not meant as a dig at you; I just can't get my head around how Safety Pilots have been allowed. I wonder if their use would continue if the passengers were aware of the situation.
There are a few operators of single pilot a/c who fly with a second
pilot in the r/h seat to ease the minds of the passengers
pilot in the r/h seat to ease the minds of the passengers
Also, how could you increase your piston time unless you were qualified on the class/type or flying with an instructor?
Did you hold a PPL or a CPL when you were paid for each flight?
As this type of flying does not (can not afford to) generally pay r/h
seat pilots what is the harm in flying in the r/h seat unpaid
seat pilots what is the harm in flying in the r/h seat unpaid
Regarding the matter of multi crew operation a 'safety pilot' is no substitute. Multi crew requires both pilots to be rated (if need be) and operate to company SOP's and comply with the AOC. Simply placing a second pilot in the r/h seat will not do.
Sorry usedtofly, the above is not meant as a dig at you; I just can't get my head around how Safety Pilots have been allowed. I wonder if their use would continue if the passengers were aware of the situation.
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Don,
I do actually agree with, but I don't make the rules.....
To answer your questions, yes I had a CPL, yes I was qualified to fly that particular aircraft. As to how the passengers would feel about it...........well that's another story and not for me to comment on.
My personal view is that ALL public transport flying should be multi crew (OMG, all the single pilot guys will hunt me down now!). I have hundreds of hours flying single pilot ops and I will never do it again (don't get me started!)
All the above opinions are my own, I am not an authority on the subject.
Cheers
UTF
I do actually agree with, but I don't make the rules.....
To answer your questions, yes I had a CPL, yes I was qualified to fly that particular aircraft. As to how the passengers would feel about it...........well that's another story and not for me to comment on.
My personal view is that ALL public transport flying should be multi crew (OMG, all the single pilot guys will hunt me down now!). I have hundreds of hours flying single pilot ops and I will never do it again (don't get me started!)
All the above opinions are my own, I am not an authority on the subject.
Cheers
UTF
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Hmmm some interesting points raised, thanks guys. I agree if it's a multi crew operation both pilot's must be rated on type and paid.
I was under the impression that a 'safety pilot' would refer to a 'helper' on a SPA flight... as usedtofly said - I see it as a way to just gain some additional operational experience outside my current scope of flying and... hopefully make some contacts and open possible doors later on down the line.
I was under the impression that a 'safety pilot' would refer to a 'helper' on a SPA flight... as usedtofly said - I see it as a way to just gain some additional operational experience outside my current scope of flying and... hopefully make some contacts and open possible doors later on down the line.
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I was under the impression that a 'safety pilot' would refer to a 'helper' on a SPA flight
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Here's one
"GIV crew is looking for a safety pilot for 1 to 2 months, until they get comfortable with the airplane."
It probably means sitting on the jumpseat watching for traffic, but could be fun! It's in Panama
Let me know if you'd like the #
It probably means sitting on the jumpseat watching for traffic, but could be fun! It's in Panama
Let me know if you'd like the #
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Don
Cannot agree! A safety pilot is just what the description implies ie He/She is a backup pilot/pilots to the required pilot/crew for a particular aircraft.
If the aircraft is single pilot then the safety pilot is if you like it a spare should the unthinkable happen.
The safety pilot could indeed be a passenger.
It is common practice to have a passenger in the right seat on a single pilot aircraft. If that passenger happens to also be a pilot capable of flying the aircraft or assisting the required pilot if the going gets tough he is then a safety pilot.
He is not required to legally make up a crew for the aircraft and infact may not be used at all during the course of the flight.
A larger aircraft which use a crew may carry safety pilots as passengers.
Some very wealthy owners not only carry a spare crew but their own Doctors and medical equiptment.
Pace
Cannot agree! A safety pilot is just what the description implies ie He/She is a backup pilot/pilots to the required pilot/crew for a particular aircraft.
If the aircraft is single pilot then the safety pilot is if you like it a spare should the unthinkable happen.
The safety pilot could indeed be a passenger.
It is common practice to have a passenger in the right seat on a single pilot aircraft. If that passenger happens to also be a pilot capable of flying the aircraft or assisting the required pilot if the going gets tough he is then a safety pilot.
He is not required to legally make up a crew for the aircraft and infact may not be used at all during the course of the flight.
A larger aircraft which use a crew may carry safety pilots as passengers.
Some very wealthy owners not only carry a spare crew but their own Doctors and medical equiptment.
Pace
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Pace,
For private flying that may be the case but for flying under an AOC under EU OPS or the ANO that person is called a copilot and must be properly qualified.
Bear in mind there is nothing to prevent a SPA being operated multi-crew (i.e. captain and copilot)for AOC flying, providing suitable procedures are in the Ops manual; this makes it possible to have a properly qualified pilot in the other seat. Also bear in mind that the exemption under Appendix 1 to OPS 1.005 (a) Subpara 4 details that passengers may be allowed in a pilot seat but also states that they may not be allowed to distract or interfere with the pilot which would prevent him interacting with the pilot "when the going gets tough".
For private flying that may be the case but for flying under an AOC under EU OPS or the ANO that person is called a copilot and must be properly qualified.
Bear in mind there is nothing to prevent a SPA being operated multi-crew (i.e. captain and copilot)for AOC flying, providing suitable procedures are in the Ops manual; this makes it possible to have a properly qualified pilot in the other seat. Also bear in mind that the exemption under Appendix 1 to OPS 1.005 (a) Subpara 4 details that passengers may be allowed in a pilot seat but also states that they may not be allowed to distract or interfere with the pilot which would prevent him interacting with the pilot "when the going gets tough".
Last edited by Don Coyote; 5th Mar 2010 at 18:55.
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Whatever the nature of the flight, if the crew pop's their clogs it'll be down to the most capable person on board to return the aircraft to mother earth in a condition that allow's any others to survive. No laws would be broken, ah, we remember "Airport". So, if you think you might peg it, get a safety pilot, even if you don't shuffle off your mortal coil, he/she can be usefull in many ways.
. So, if you think you might peg it, get a safety pilot, even if you don't shuffle off your mortal coil, he/she can be usefull in many ways.
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For private flying that may be the case but for flying under an AOC under EU OPS or the ANO that person is called a copilot and must be properly qualified.
But then you must question the use of the word " safety pilot" in regards to AOC ops indeed they are co pilots.
For me a safety pilot is a person who is there as a backup in case of an emergency ie in the case of incapacitation of the pilot or where the workload gets so high in certain situations that the safety pilot can take on functions which will reduce the workload on the pilot.
In normal operations he is not needed or required by law for the operation of the aircraft and is purely a safeguard.
Pace
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Most public air transport Beech 200 operators in the UK operate single pilot and most normally carry a pilots assistant/safety pilot as part of the flight crew. The King Air 200 is a sinlge pilot aircraft under 5700kg and is not turbo jet, so a PA does not need to be qualified or carried. For those reasons the rating is officially a BE90/99/100/200 class rating not type rating. Somehow there are operators in the UK flying the King Air 350 single pilot public air transport, not sure how they manage to do that legally!
To the best of my knowledge there are 4 operators in the UK operating the King Air 200 Multi pilot; BAe Systems (Private), Flight Precision (Aerial Work), GAMA Scottish Air Ambulance (Multi Crew AOC), and DragonFly/Executive Aviation Services Ltd (Multi Crew AOC).
I have flown for both Multi Pilot and Single Pilot King Air 200 operators.
The single pilot operators ops manual is for single pilot operation with or without pilots assistant, even with 2 fully qualified crew only p1 can log the flying as it is a single pilot operation with no right hand seat OPC or multicrew SOP's.
The multipilot operators ops manual specifies a minimum of 2 fully qualfied crew so the co-pilot is fully rated & right hand seat OPC'd, the SOP's are multicrew and the flying is logged multi crew by both pilots.
To answer Wodka's original question, yes there is PA work out there, mainly un-paid, the easiest to get into will be with private operators if you can get to know the owner/operator there is PA work out there on private single pilot aircraft i.e PC12's, King Air's, CJ's etc... it's all about who you know, so get networking.
To the best of my knowledge there are 4 operators in the UK operating the King Air 200 Multi pilot; BAe Systems (Private), Flight Precision (Aerial Work), GAMA Scottish Air Ambulance (Multi Crew AOC), and DragonFly/Executive Aviation Services Ltd (Multi Crew AOC).
I have flown for both Multi Pilot and Single Pilot King Air 200 operators.
The single pilot operators ops manual is for single pilot operation with or without pilots assistant, even with 2 fully qualified crew only p1 can log the flying as it is a single pilot operation with no right hand seat OPC or multicrew SOP's.
The multipilot operators ops manual specifies a minimum of 2 fully qualfied crew so the co-pilot is fully rated & right hand seat OPC'd, the SOP's are multicrew and the flying is logged multi crew by both pilots.
To answer Wodka's original question, yes there is PA work out there, mainly un-paid, the easiest to get into will be with private operators if you can get to know the owner/operator there is PA work out there on private single pilot aircraft i.e PC12's, King Air's, CJ's etc... it's all about who you know, so get networking.
