VP-BAF Samedan 12th Feb 2009 (Split From Samedan Overrun)
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According to the article in the "Engadiner Post" at the time of the accident it was cloudy with visibility of 3km and a cloudbase of 3000 feet. I saw an aircraft, which I assume was the one involved in the accident, making an approach through a very heavy snow shower. Being on the ground in a bus at the time I cannot say what the visibility would be for an approaching aircraft.
I had been able to see the airport from the ski-slopes during the week and the runway and taxi-way appeared clear. However, there had been heavy snowfall in the region and all railway lines and roads were cleared through the snow with high banks of snow at the edges. I would assume that there would be considerable amounts of snow accumulated at the edges of the runway from the runway clearance and that the aircraft involved in the accident has hit one of these snow-walls ( ".... prallte gegen eine Schneemauer" - Engadiner Post).
I had been able to see the airport from the ski-slopes during the week and the runway and taxi-way appeared clear. However, there had been heavy snowfall in the region and all railway lines and roads were cleared through the snow with high banks of snow at the edges. I would assume that there would be considerable amounts of snow accumulated at the edges of the runway from the runway clearance and that the aircraft involved in the accident has hit one of these snow-walls ( ".... prallte gegen eine Schneemauer" - Engadiner Post).
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Interesting Snippet Posted On Swissinfo.ch
February 16, 2009 - 8:04 PM 
Flights halted at Samedan
No planes will be permitted to land at the airport in Samedan, near St Moritz, until the authorities there have met international guidelines for clearing snow.
The Federal Civil Aviation Office imposed the ban on Monday, as part of its investigation into a fatal crash at the mountain airport on Thursday.
A Falcon jet smashed into a bank of snow and broke up, killing two of its occupants and seriously injuring a third.
Investigators said the walls of snow around the runway were between 1.5 and four meters high, whereas they should not exceed one meter. Furthermore, the runway had only been cleared to a width of eight meters instead of ten.
The office said it may demand further steps in the light of its investigations. Other Swiss aerodromes will be examined in the next few days to check that they are conforming to the guidelines.
The airport at Samedan is Europe's highest, at 1707 meters. Thursday's accident was the first fatal jet crash in the airport's history.
Flights halted at Samedan
No planes will be permitted to land at the airport in Samedan, near St Moritz, until the authorities there have met international guidelines for clearing snow.
The Federal Civil Aviation Office imposed the ban on Monday, as part of its investigation into a fatal crash at the mountain airport on Thursday.
A Falcon jet smashed into a bank of snow and broke up, killing two of its occupants and seriously injuring a third.
Investigators said the walls of snow around the runway were between 1.5 and four meters high, whereas they should not exceed one meter. Furthermore, the runway had only been cleared to a width of eight meters instead of ten.
The office said it may demand further steps in the light of its investigations. Other Swiss aerodromes will be examined in the next few days to check that they are conforming to the guidelines.
The airport at Samedan is Europe's highest, at 1707 meters. Thursday's accident was the first fatal jet crash in the airport's history.
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Investigators said the walls of snow around the runway were between 1.5 and four meters high, whereas they should not exceed one meter. Furthermore, the runway had only been cleared to a width of eight meters instead of ten.
I for one hate going into these places, Sion and to a lesser extent Chambery and would be pleased to see them all shut....
It never ceases to amaze me how dumb some of our rich punters are insisting that we roll the dice of fate rather than taking a ride from a more sensible destination like GVA or ZRH.......
The wx reporting at these places is pretty crĢp too. man just pops his head out of the office looks up and confirms we have 8K and 8000 feet.therefore good to go.........
Turned the corner in the valley and solid IMC...........God help us if a donkey had quit.
A contact I have reckoned that an I- registered Premier 1 had taxied back to the ramp instead of taking off on the afternoon that the Falcon crashed. They weren't sure if it was due to the weather closing in (which it apparently had), or due to another reason (tech/pax). Apparently the aircraft had only landed 30 minutes earlier, and the weather had changed fairly quickly.
Don't know if this info is accurate, and how long before the Falcon accident it was???
Don't know if this info is accurate, and how long before the Falcon accident it was???
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[quote]=[It never ceases to amaze me how dumb some of our rich punters are insisting that we roll the dice of fate rather than taking a ride from a more sensible destination like GVA or ZRH......./QUOTE]
That TT is why you have a job! If they wanted to go to GVA or ZCH, they could get there very cheaply and frequently by scheduled airline. Neither of those airports are anywhere near Samedan (3 hr drive from ZCH and about 5 hrs fm GVA).
If you call Engadin tower before departing, in my experience, they will give you an extremely good forecast of the local conditions for the next 12 hours or so. You can go to their webcam and look for yourself if you don't believe them.
As observed earlier, this is the first fatal jet accident at LSZS; sure it requires extra care, but then so do many others in Europe.
So maybe your "punters' are not so much dumb, but expecting you to be a professional and tell them whether they can get in or not!
That TT is why you have a job! If they wanted to go to GVA or ZCH, they could get there very cheaply and frequently by scheduled airline. Neither of those airports are anywhere near Samedan (3 hr drive from ZCH and about 5 hrs fm GVA).
If you call Engadin tower before departing, in my experience, they will give you an extremely good forecast of the local conditions for the next 12 hours or so. You can go to their webcam and look for yourself if you don't believe them.
As observed earlier, this is the first fatal jet accident at LSZS; sure it requires extra care, but then so do many others in Europe.
So maybe your "punters' are not so much dumb, but expecting you to be a professional and tell them whether they can get in or not!
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Despite the Ra Ra macho brigade bareing their chest hairs I actualy agree that Samedan was an accident waiting to happen (first fatality but anecdotally there have been a lot of near misses). I too dislike Sion as well as Samedan.
These destinations are intrinsically dangerous and with the commercial pressure to go, the dice is loaded against all but the most professional and strong willed. ......and dont kid me that with the mortgage to pay and jobs scarce there are not those who go when they should not.
These destinations are intrinsically dangerous and with the commercial pressure to go, the dice is loaded against all but the most professional and strong willed. ......and dont kid me that with the mortgage to pay and jobs scarce there are not those who go when they should not.
They are NOT dangerous. Pilots who cannot make up their own mind and take a responsible decision whether the weather is good enough to land or not are dangerous. I have been flying to Sion, Samedan, Chambery, London-City, Biggin Hill etc.for a few years now. Be a man and say NO! if it is not good enough. If you get into trouble for sasying NO! you are probably with the wrong employer and better leave. If you do not leave, please stop whinging.
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Despite the Ra Ra macho brigade bareing their chest hairs I actualy agree that Samedan was an accident waiting to happen (first fatality but anecdotally there have been a lot of near misses). I too dislike Sion as well as Samedan.
These destinations are intrinsically dangerous and with the commercial pressure to go, the dice is loaded against all but the most professional and strong willed. ......and dont kid me that with the mortgage to pay and jobs scarce there are not those who go when they should not
These destinations are intrinsically dangerous and with the commercial pressure to go, the dice is loaded against all but the most professional and strong willed. ......and dont kid me that with the mortgage to pay and jobs scarce there are not those who go when they should not
I have been on all the mentioned Airfields before the regulations and I canīt say where it really was necessary to regulate, at least for VFR conditions. London City in a KingAir or CJ? WTF would one need a simtraining???
We certainly donīt need more of this bulls...
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His Dudeness...
I couldn't agree more strongly. The over categorisation of some airfields is quite shocking. However some basic training is very important. This is an unfortunate accident. We are paid, in this job, to go to destinations such as this. If you don't like it, leave, go to an airline flying the same boring routes day-in and day-out.
I regularly operate out of Sion, Chambery, La Mole, Samedan, Bolzano and a few others to name. As a Line Trainer, I also take Crews to these places. They are safe, as long as the Crews involved are properly trained.
As for commercial pressure...that should NEVER affect your decision, even if your job is at stake. That is the unprofessional attitude which results in an accident.
My deepest condolences for the families of those involved.
SKP
I couldn't agree more strongly. The over categorisation of some airfields is quite shocking. However some basic training is very important. This is an unfortunate accident. We are paid, in this job, to go to destinations such as this. If you don't like it, leave, go to an airline flying the same boring routes day-in and day-out.
I regularly operate out of Sion, Chambery, La Mole, Samedan, Bolzano and a few others to name. As a Line Trainer, I also take Crews to these places. They are safe, as long as the Crews involved are properly trained.
As for commercial pressure...that should NEVER affect your decision, even if your job is at stake. That is the unprofessional attitude which results in an accident.
My deepest condolences for the families of those involved.
SKP
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What does anybody not understand about 'VFR only' with regards to approaching fields like Samedan and Sion, etc. With respect to snow berms alongside the runway, that is a different matter.
All right ,you hairy-chests,or perhaps hairy a$%%ES,perhaps you could ,in your professional capacities,give the figures you use for your aircraft,or the Falcon,if you know it, for the LDR,TODR,ASDA,ETC,for the conditions(use the piccy as a reference).Also,as you all seem to operate there,or thereabouts,what do you know about the requirements for runway swept clearances and braking action checks,at such airfields and how they are measured/utilised/passed to aircrew in flight?What is the MAProc,if it turns crap?Does theairfield spray `graffiti` paint on snow berms/banks as is common in Canada in the snow season,to show where the edges are,?,or do you all pull the `private plug` and hope you`ll be ok ?
PS,forgot,is the runway grooved,and sanded?
PS,forgot,is the runway grooved,and sanded?
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All right ,you hairy-chests,or perhaps hairy a$%%ES,perhaps you could ,in your professional capacities,give the figures you use for your aircraft,or the Falcon,if you know it, for the LDR,TODR,ASDA,ETC,for the conditions(use the piccy as a reference).Also,as you all seem to operate there,or thereabouts,what do you know about the requirements for runway swept clearances and braking action checks,at such airfields and how they are measured/utilised/passed to aircrew in flight?What is the MAProc,if it turns crap?Does theairfield spray `graffiti` paint on snow berms/banks as is common in Canada in the snow season,to show where the edges are,?,or do you all pull the `private plug` and hope you`ll be ok ?
PS,forgot,is the runway grooved,and sanded?
PS,forgot,is the runway grooved,and sanded?
I for one would not land in 3 km vis at LSZS. I would not land on a snowcovered rwy with no BA report. And I operate (these days) G.
But let me add: I definetaly donīt judge the pilots of that Falcon. If you go overhead and see the airfield and you feel you can "make it" safely, then...a Metar is a report probably 29,5 minutes old.
What I for one wonīt do - or at least I try to avoid that - is to put me in a "no alternative available position"
If I could see the field but would have to race against time and a solid thick shower - pull up, see the alternate.
I have not seen the notams/snowtams for LSZS on that day. IF there was no BA report and the rwy looked on the approach like it looked on the pics AFTER the accident, I probably would have not tried to land.
Anyways, always easy to judge with hindsight.
MAPproc? You MUST be able to stay VFR AND climb above MSA. Thats (in my book) the whole story there...
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Runway
All these types of airports require special care and planning. Itīs obvious. The pilots of this aircraft were regular visitors, I was told the following day, having landed an aircraft with a 20m wingspan in vmc. The chart material states that the runway width is 40 meters. Someone mentioned Falcon 10 having a span of 13 m. Swiss VFR regs alllow flying to Samedan in surprisingly low visibility. Only condition: Ability to turn in valley. Obviously this is very useful for those who are familiar with the surroundings. If youīre not, personal judgement is required, always. Following a valley down low VMC, turning a corner and facing IMC conditions, as described earlier by a contributor, well....phew!! Tricky. In any case, good planning, phone call to the tower, webcam, checking webcams in surroundings (swisswebcams.ch)...radio call to the tower etc...and Samedan is a great place to visit, fun to fly into and perfectly safe. Great Latte at the cafe, good pie. And the view! the view!
If the airport is indeed closed to fixed wing traffic, does that mean that aircraft are trapped there (based a/c or visiting aircraft that were on the ground)?
I'd imagine there would have been quite a few machines on the deck as it is prime skiing/school holiday season/
I'd imagine there would have been quite a few machines on the deck as it is prime skiing/school holiday season/
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Yes, They would be stuck there. Thats why a lot of us would quick turn there to get out as many operators cant afford having an aircraft weathered in. Easier to jump to Zurich until the pax need collecting or they can drive out to meet their aircraft elsewhere. so yes, its a VFR airfield for departures too..
