Netjets seniority list
PPRuNe Handmaiden
nr 185... well, if you had have been allowed off the aeroplane 
, you and flinty would have been mistaken as traffic stop signs. 
, you and flinty would have been mistaken as traffic stop signs.
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I have to say I am with B767 on this one.
I do approve the general working of a seniority list but it does not go together very well with the policy of attracting DEC to fly on a right seat.
In my view you either have:
1) A seniority list which is clear, together with either DEC hiring because you need the experience but than straight on a left seat, or you dont attract captains at all unless they are very well aware they will be stuck on a right seat for several years.
2) No seniority list and you continue to base your fleet transfers and upgrades on qualifications and merit. In this case you are able to attract experience of DECs because they know they will be flying a right seat for a limited period of time.
In my opinion as well, this has everything to do with the financial aspect of it all. A capt at NJE touches around 7000-7500 euros/month while an FO barely reaches 4000 euros.
How can a company like NJE expect to be attracting Captains to fly a right seat for this salary, without a pre determined timeframe to upgrade?
The least they could do is attract these captains, as they do require the experience of weathered aviators, fly them on a right seat but at least pay them a salary which comes close to the salary of a captain!
In all honesty, I have been offered a job at NJE recently and I turned it down for exactly these reasons:
No timeframe
A too large step backwards financially
No security
Sorry guys, would have loved to fly for NJE and was really looking forward to it, but it just does not make any sense anymore.
Too bad for me I guess, but good luck to you all who are in allready. NJE is a very nice company, keep it that way!
But if you have 10 years + in aviation....
I do approve the general working of a seniority list but it does not go together very well with the policy of attracting DEC to fly on a right seat.
In my view you either have:
1) A seniority list which is clear, together with either DEC hiring because you need the experience but than straight on a left seat, or you dont attract captains at all unless they are very well aware they will be stuck on a right seat for several years.
2) No seniority list and you continue to base your fleet transfers and upgrades on qualifications and merit. In this case you are able to attract experience of DECs because they know they will be flying a right seat for a limited period of time.
In my opinion as well, this has everything to do with the financial aspect of it all. A capt at NJE touches around 7000-7500 euros/month while an FO barely reaches 4000 euros.
How can a company like NJE expect to be attracting Captains to fly a right seat for this salary, without a pre determined timeframe to upgrade?
The least they could do is attract these captains, as they do require the experience of weathered aviators, fly them on a right seat but at least pay them a salary which comes close to the salary of a captain!
In all honesty, I have been offered a job at NJE recently and I turned it down for exactly these reasons:
No timeframe
A too large step backwards financially
No security
Sorry guys, would have loved to fly for NJE and was really looking forward to it, but it just does not make any sense anymore.
Too bad for me I guess, but good luck to you all who are in allready. NJE is a very nice company, keep it that way!
But if you have 10 years + in aviation....
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ST
No Security?
Not quite sure what point you are making there, care to expand abit. With the aircraft on order and deliveries due it's not going to be that long before you upgrade. One guy did two consecutive tours with me then was scheduled an upgrade course. Years to command i very much doubt.
SB
No Security?
Not quite sure what point you are making there, care to expand abit. With the aircraft on order and deliveries due it's not going to be that long before you upgrade. One guy did two consecutive tours with me then was scheduled an upgrade course. Years to command i very much doubt.
SB
PPRuNe Handmaiden
As far as I know, seniority has no bearing on upgrades. That's on hours and merit. (as it's always been).
Fleet changes is now seniority influenced but if I understand the mix correctly, it's based on date of joining as well as what fleet you're on and a few other things. So, it's fairer and a lot more transparent.
Let's see if I have it correct. This is an example.
Mike, Bravo pilot, joined Feb 2006. (small cabin) Number 301.
Dave, Excel pilot, joined Feb 2006. (medium cabin) Number 299
Steve, 400 pilot, joined May 2004. (small cabin) Number 10
All now captains. (seniority played no part - just merit and hours)
Mike just wants to fly the G550.
Dave things long haul is death and wouldn't mind the Hawker 4000 or the Falcon 2000EX.
Steve, he just wants the 900EX.
With this simplistic example, unless there's a delivery of a Falcon 900EX soon, Steve (*10) will fleet change a long time AFTER the other two guys. Why? The 900 EX is a very small fleet.
Dave (*299) has a "fleet lock" of 3 years versus 2 years for the small cabin guys. Therefore, he can't change fleets before Mike who joined at the same time.
Now, if Mike realises that the G550 has many people with a "better" seniority number than him bidding for it, he can change his selection to "Falcon 2000EX". Since he's out of "fleet lock" earlier than Dave, he can bid for it. (the bidding system will show how many are "waiting" etc)
The first part of the new list has been implemented, now just waiting for the rest of it.
Please understand that this is my interpretation of the new system so it may be wrong and it is a very simplistic view of it. (I am just a line pilot)
Fleet changes is now seniority influenced but if I understand the mix correctly, it's based on date of joining as well as what fleet you're on and a few other things. So, it's fairer and a lot more transparent.
Let's see if I have it correct. This is an example.
Mike, Bravo pilot, joined Feb 2006. (small cabin) Number 301.
Dave, Excel pilot, joined Feb 2006. (medium cabin) Number 299
Steve, 400 pilot, joined May 2004. (small cabin) Number 10
All now captains. (seniority played no part - just merit and hours)
Mike just wants to fly the G550.
Dave things long haul is death and wouldn't mind the Hawker 4000 or the Falcon 2000EX.
Steve, he just wants the 900EX.
With this simplistic example, unless there's a delivery of a Falcon 900EX soon, Steve (*10) will fleet change a long time AFTER the other two guys. Why? The 900 EX is a very small fleet.
Dave (*299) has a "fleet lock" of 3 years versus 2 years for the small cabin guys. Therefore, he can't change fleets before Mike who joined at the same time.
Now, if Mike realises that the G550 has many people with a "better" seniority number than him bidding for it, he can change his selection to "Falcon 2000EX". Since he's out of "fleet lock" earlier than Dave, he can bid for it. (the bidding system will show how many are "waiting" etc)
The first part of the new list has been implemented, now just waiting for the rest of it.
Please understand that this is my interpretation of the new system so it may be wrong and it is a very simplistic view of it. (I am just a line pilot)
Join Date: Nov 2000
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I'm starting in August and am hoping for something with a range of no more than a couple of thousand miles. After 6 years of long haul on a widebody Boeing a change would very welcome. Long haul sounds great if you haven't done it but believe me it starts to get to you after a while, being awake when you should be asleep and trying to sleep when the rest of the world is awake. The aircraft type soon becomes irrelevant when all you want to do is crawl into bed and stay there for a week. I'm glad I did it and certainly had some good times but once in your late forties I'm not sure that it is good for you in the long term. I suppose some folks can carry on doing it, I've known a few but I know a lot more who are looking to retire or go part time. As far as I am concerned the G550/7x is for the youngsters, I will be happy enough to eventually sit in the left seat of a Bravo/Excel or whatever until I can hang my boots up. My only worry is that I may have missed the boat (again) with upgrades although the postings here suggest otherwise. Oh well, nothing ventured...
Hi Northern Boy,
a very healthy point of view, I think. I am still "young" and I am keen to do some ultra long-haul for a few years in the mid-future (when my seat-lock is over in about 5 years), but for sure not until the bitter end.
Your concerns regarding delayed upgrade are understandable, but are - what I guess - not really necessary. For the time being NJE keeps on expanding and we need commanders all the time. It looks like you got the hours and the experience, so you can expect to do the upgrade-assessment within a year doing your initial line-check. Nothing is for sure, but the future still looks very bright for us! Good luck and welcome to the club!
a very healthy point of view, I think. I am still "young" and I am keen to do some ultra long-haul for a few years in the mid-future (when my seat-lock is over in about 5 years), but for sure not until the bitter end.
Your concerns regarding delayed upgrade are understandable, but are - what I guess - not really necessary. For the time being NJE keeps on expanding and we need commanders all the time. It looks like you got the hours and the experience, so you can expect to do the upgrade-assessment within a year doing your initial line-check. Nothing is for sure, but the future still looks very bright for us! Good luck and welcome to the club!
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Eatmyshorts
Ta for the kind words. I'm guessing but you are prehaps a follower of the Simpson family?
Hope you enjoy ULH, start storing up the sleep now mate, you are going to need it.
NB
Ta for the kind words. I'm guessing but you are prehaps a follower of the Simpson family?
Hope you enjoy ULH, start storing up the sleep now mate, you are going to need it.
NB
Doh! You found out that I like the Simpsons 
ULH...it may be interesting for some time, as you mentioned, but one cannot do it forever. I have done some medium-hauls (6 to 8 hours) and as long as they take place during normal times, they are acceptable. Flying through the night, is really not easy and there I am with you: I don't need that all the time.
Anyways, back to topic
ULH...it may be interesting for some time, as you mentioned, but one cannot do it forever. I have done some medium-hauls (6 to 8 hours) and as long as they take place during normal times, they are acceptable. Flying through the night, is really not easy and there I am with you: I don't need that all the time.
Anyways, back to topic
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What percentage of flying is truly long-haul (7+ hours) for NJE? Don't most of your airplanes stay within the Europe/Mediterranean region? I realise your airplanes can fly anywhere an owner wants it to fly (within its capabilities). Flights from Farnborough to Moscow or Paris to Athens, etc.? I know the Gulf region is popular (Dubai, Kuwait). Are the G550s/F7Xs/F900s/F2000EXs really flying trans-Atlantic, Asia and beyond all the time?
Just because you fly a F900 or G550 doesn't mean you will be flying long-haul all the time - right?
Just because you fly a F900 or G550 doesn't mean you will be flying long-haul all the time - right?
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unfortunately this information is classified, 
However, yes there is utra long haul flights, and transatlantics are common, so common in fact that NTA holds a FAR129 certificate...
7hours are routine in the 2000EX; for the ratio between long haul and short/medium; you can always look at the CFMU to give you an idea for the ones originating from europe. Several hundreds flight a day, extrapolate the maths, you will have a picture..
However, yes there is utra long haul flights, and transatlantics are common, so common in fact that NTA holds a FAR129 certificate...
7hours are routine in the 2000EX; for the ratio between long haul and short/medium; you can always look at the CFMU to give you an idea for the ones originating from europe. Several hundreds flight a day, extrapolate the maths, you will have a picture..
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cl300
"If you want to join the EASIEST place to work for in the GA arena in Europe"
really, what about the private guys that fly 2-5 times a month, get paid significantly more and when they get somewhere nice they stay and enjoy the place for a few days in nicer hotels????
seems easier to me
"If you want to join the EASIEST place to work for in the GA arena in Europe"
really, what about the private guys that fly 2-5 times a month, get paid significantly more and when they get somewhere nice they stay and enjoy the place for a few days in nicer hotels????
seems easier to me
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manligsak cl300
"If you want to join the EASIEST place to work for in the GA arena in Europe"
really, what about the private guys that fly 2-5 times a month, get paid significantly more and when they get somewhere nice they stay and enjoy the place for a few days in nicer hotels????
seems easier to me
"If you want to join the EASIEST place to work for in the GA arena in Europe"
really, what about the private guys that fly 2-5 times a month, get paid significantly more and when they get somewhere nice they stay and enjoy the place for a few days in nicer hotels????
seems easier to me
Netjets is consistent , always recruiting, salary, rosters are solid and stable, you can make more money with some operators, but if the guy goes mad overnight (or die) this is it..
this is why i say that this is the easiest GA place to work for in Europe, this is why the waiting list is so high to come in, with thousands applicants and a success rate of about 1 out of 14 if I remember well.
Balancing family and social life vs our flying addiction, this is what Netjets does best ( at least for me).
Everybody can have an opinion of course, open minded people , most of us are; LoL ( cf CN
)Iver, google it...
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I don't work for a single owner yet my life is far easier than it was with NJE. I'm sure I'm just the exception to the rule though 
Hmmmmm, the pressure of the "...easiest job in Europe..." must be showing.
Iver. CFMU=Central Flow Management Unit. Here http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/cfmu.../homepage.html
Originally Posted by CL300
Iver, google it...
Iver. CFMU=Central Flow Management Unit. Here http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/cfmu.../homepage.html
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cl300
i c your point but i still think that the private operators (most in my experience) are easier to work for. i.e. no paperwork, no reports for silly things, less flying, less new difficult airpots, no GRT's and online test on your free time, the five days off are actually not 5 days off anymore with all the extra work i.e. paperwork to do at home, and if the guy is decent (again, most in my experience) less difficult people to deal with and to come back to the thread, no senority lists and other stuff to figure out how it works, all togheter less hassle.
what u r talking about is different, it's more secure and in most cases better for the family, which is why i stay.......
i c your point but i still think that the private operators (most in my experience) are easier to work for. i.e. no paperwork, no reports for silly things, less flying, less new difficult airpots, no GRT's and online test on your free time, the five days off are actually not 5 days off anymore with all the extra work i.e. paperwork to do at home, and if the guy is decent (again, most in my experience) less difficult people to deal with and to come back to the thread, no senority lists and other stuff to figure out how it works, all togheter less hassle.
what u r talking about is different, it's more secure and in most cases better for the family, which is why i stay.......
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Flinstone and other posters having a different opinion from the die hard Netjets guys I would only say one thing...let them in their knowledge that they have the best job in the world with the most time off, the best conditions and the less stress possible...it is hopeless to try to convince them from the contrary...I tried it with real facts and numbers....I was nearly cyber lynched.....the Netjets die hards consider themselves so smart ansd so superior ...
I think some of us know better....
Have a good weekend and enjoy your stress free lives and time off...
B-767
I think some of us know better....
Have a good weekend and enjoy your stress free lives and time off...
B-767
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After 25 years of corporate flying, from BIG corporation and proper flight department to private individuals through manufacturer support team; Netjets is the easiest for me, all things being considered. I might have been unlucky in the previous lifes, but it is too late to change anything.
People are finding problems with a structure when they are not 200% satisfied; my ego is on the low side (What is right been always more important than who is right); as a consequence I'm happy when flying, have a social life, and live by the sea-side. (I had managed to live by sea side before my netjets time though)
since there is no perfect place to work at, what suits oneself, is good for her/him; and it is definitely good for me.
Seniority, pension, etc..open items...evil is not everywhere..
People are finding problems with a structure when they are not 200% satisfied; my ego is on the low side (What is right been always more important than who is right); as a consequence I'm happy when flying, have a social life, and live by the sea-side. (I had managed to live by sea side before my netjets time though)
since there is no perfect place to work at, what suits oneself, is good for her/him; and it is definitely good for me.
Seniority, pension, etc..open items...evil is not everywhere..