Updated briefing Samedan/LSZS
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Updated briefing Samedan/LSZS
Going to Samedan in a few days with a Gulfstream. It's been almost 5 years since my last visit, and the jet was smaller..
Appreciate and tips and tricks, regarding especially parking, handling, fuel, etc..
Tks guys
flyMD
Appreciate and tips and tricks, regarding especially parking, handling, fuel, etc..
Tks guys
flyMD
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Live cams can be of help :
http://www.engadin-airport.ch/Livecams.15.0.html?&L=1
http://www.engadin-airport.ch
Avoid overnight ther if you can, it's risky during winter.
Nice pic of G-IV VP-BUS here :
www.clariant.com/C12568C5004FDBD7/vwLookupDownloads/Deicing_210x280_e.pdf/$FILE/Deicing_210x280_e.pdf
http://www.engadin-airport.ch/Livecams.15.0.html?&L=1
http://www.engadin-airport.ch
Avoid overnight ther if you can, it's risky during winter.
Nice pic of G-IV VP-BUS here :
www.clariant.com/C12568C5004FDBD7/vwLookupDownloads/Deicing_210x280_e.pdf/$FILE/Deicing_210x280_e.pdf
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Thanks guys..
Went today to Samedan, solid cloud cover 2500ft AAL, big hole in the ceiling just above the aerodrome..
Had lots of fun doing the recommended procedure (down the valley, 180 turn over Zernez, back straight in 21)...
Ground ops no problem, all very flexible and fun... During our ground stop Junkers 52 from JU-air came for a visit.. Grand old airplane..
All in all, a fabulous day, and a reminder why corporate flying rocks... most of the time!
Went today to Samedan, solid cloud cover 2500ft AAL, big hole in the ceiling just above the aerodrome..
Had lots of fun doing the recommended procedure (down the valley, 180 turn over Zernez, back straight in 21)...
Ground ops no problem, all very flexible and fun... During our ground stop Junkers 52 from JU-air came for a visit.. Grand old airplane..
All in all, a fabulous day, and a reminder why corporate flying rocks... most of the time!
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Swiss Suicide???
Ok, let me be the one to put my head above the parapit.
Into a hole, in the otherwise overcast cloud, at 2500' aal, with the MSA up around 17,000. In a tight valley, in a gulfstream.....
I know you're Swiss based but am I the only one to think thats a fools game?????
Into a hole, in the otherwise overcast cloud, at 2500' aal, with the MSA up around 17,000. In a tight valley, in a gulfstream.....
I know you're Swiss based but am I the only one to think thats a fools game?????
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Johnny:
i'll take the bait and "justify" myself to you if:
1. You are familiar or have familiarized yourself with LSZS and it's intricacies
2. Have the experience and credentials to understand what i'm talking about...
awaiting your reply or PM..
flyMD
P.S. even if you do have the credentials, the title "Swiss suicide" is uncalled for
i'll take the bait and "justify" myself to you if:
1. You are familiar or have familiarized yourself with LSZS and it's intricacies
2. Have the experience and credentials to understand what i'm talking about...
awaiting your reply or PM..
flyMD
P.S. even if you do have the credentials, the title "Swiss suicide" is uncalled for
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I have to admit, having been there (and having also missed numerous trips there too), to sticking to a Company Brief that states that no approach or departure is to be commenced unless the following conditions exist...
*there is no significant cloud below 15600' (MSA) within 25 nm along the valley either side of the airport.
*that the mountains within 5nm of the airport are completely clear of cloud. *visibility is greater than 7km.
*wind velocity at the airport is not greater than 20 kts.
I'd be interested to hear what other people use as a go/no go...thanks!!
*there is no significant cloud below 15600' (MSA) within 25 nm along the valley either side of the airport.
*that the mountains within 5nm of the airport are completely clear of cloud. *visibility is greater than 7km.
*wind velocity at the airport is not greater than 20 kts.
I'd be interested to hear what other people use as a go/no go...thanks!!
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Well MD I apologise if my title has ruffled your feathers, but it is a question not a statement.
I fly for european GA charter outfit that regularly operates in to LSZS (many don't). The company brief states that VFR conditions must exist to descend below MSA, basically no cloud in the valley. Without passengers I've 'bent' the rules and flown into a hole and quite frankly it was the most terrifying 10 minutes of my x-thousand hours so far. Stuck under an overcast, heading the wrong way down a narrowing valley towards an enourmous MSA and a military danger zone and the only way out is up through the clag. And when we landed at our diversion airfield the management were only too quick to demand we return as "other operators were getting in".
I appreciate that there are pilots who have "local" knowledge but pushing the limits at this particular field is really not sensible.
I'm not out to irritate you or seek justification, flying is full of variables and lets say whats safe one day may not be the next.
But lets ask the question, just what limits are being used??????
I fly for european GA charter outfit that regularly operates in to LSZS (many don't). The company brief states that VFR conditions must exist to descend below MSA, basically no cloud in the valley. Without passengers I've 'bent' the rules and flown into a hole and quite frankly it was the most terrifying 10 minutes of my x-thousand hours so far. Stuck under an overcast, heading the wrong way down a narrowing valley towards an enourmous MSA and a military danger zone and the only way out is up through the clag. And when we landed at our diversion airfield the management were only too quick to demand we return as "other operators were getting in".
I appreciate that there are pilots who have "local" knowledge but pushing the limits at this particular field is really not sensible.
I'm not out to irritate you or seek justification, flying is full of variables and lets say whats safe one day may not be the next.
But lets ask the question, just what limits are being used??????
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Ok, Johny, seeing as you're familiar with the ins and outs of Samedan, i'll make good: here's my thinking...
With a thin but solid layer at 2500 AAL, and 10k visibility below that, you can fly up or down the valley maintaining more than 7000ft of altitude, which is a minimum not only to keep the locals happy, but also to keep a reasonable distance from cables and most hang gliders and such, and most importantly, with about 150 knots (good maneuvering speed for a G5 in intermediate configuration) at 7000ft, a 180 deg turn is possible in ANY part of the Engadin valley, PROVIDED there are no "hanging" clouds on the side of the valley.
Local procedures recommend a straight in approach from either Zernez or Maloya, depending on RWY. If the hole in the layer is not over those points, but over the field, as happens quite often, the need arises to fly up or down the valley, and do a 180 turn for final. Not so problematic on the Maloya side. On the Zernez side, i prefer to take the long way, and go pas the village of Zernez to the south branch of the valley for a wider turn.
My minimum requirements, then, to start such a procedure:
1. the hole in the cloud layer is big enough for me to see slantwise ALL THE WAY to the point where i need to make the turn, BEFORE I commit to descend below the layer.
2. The elevation of the layer is such that i can maintain more than 7000ft for the whole procedure.
3. No hanging clouds, precipitation, haze or strong/gusty winds.
In addition, following points are part of the flight preparation:
1. Phone call to the Samedan airport before we take off, to get their take on the weather, the traffic situation, VFR activities, etc..
2. Thorough briefing in the cockpit regarding go/no-go factors, procedures etc.., also BEFORE getting near LSZS
3. Early radio contact with Samedan, to reconfirm latest conditions, as well as talk with the other trafic. (by the way, on wednesday, we had a chat with an Swiss Air Force helicopter, a Pilatus 12 and a Challenger crew on scene before even cancelling our IFR)
4. In addition to the normal weather/notam briefing, a good long look at the military and other shooting activities (KOSIF), the Swiss VFR chart as well as the Swiss Glider chart (cables...) needs to be taken.
I won't even get into the passenger and company issues related to this kind of operation, as the differ so much case to case and company to company. But that's really where it all starts, because if there is any pressure from that side, the game gets very dangerous.
The point i'm trying to make is that sufficient information, discipline and common sense are safety factors all the time, and more so with airports like Samedan, Gstaad, or Aspen. I would much rather have a crew prepare thoroughly every time, then go near the operational limit, than impose some sort of company limit, which will then be applied without further thought.
I'm sure You have excellent reasons to apply Your own personal limits to operation in LSZS, influenced by Your experience, Your airplane and it's performance, Your company and Your passengers. There is nothing to say against a prudent attitude, ever. So good on You for not letting the company put pressure on You.
I have my own set of rules and guidelines, they are a result of experience and attitude, and I don't really like to be labelled suicidal by a fellow professional, even with a question mark...
With a thin but solid layer at 2500 AAL, and 10k visibility below that, you can fly up or down the valley maintaining more than 7000ft of altitude, which is a minimum not only to keep the locals happy, but also to keep a reasonable distance from cables and most hang gliders and such, and most importantly, with about 150 knots (good maneuvering speed for a G5 in intermediate configuration) at 7000ft, a 180 deg turn is possible in ANY part of the Engadin valley, PROVIDED there are no "hanging" clouds on the side of the valley.
Local procedures recommend a straight in approach from either Zernez or Maloya, depending on RWY. If the hole in the layer is not over those points, but over the field, as happens quite often, the need arises to fly up or down the valley, and do a 180 turn for final. Not so problematic on the Maloya side. On the Zernez side, i prefer to take the long way, and go pas the village of Zernez to the south branch of the valley for a wider turn.
My minimum requirements, then, to start such a procedure:
1. the hole in the cloud layer is big enough for me to see slantwise ALL THE WAY to the point where i need to make the turn, BEFORE I commit to descend below the layer.
2. The elevation of the layer is such that i can maintain more than 7000ft for the whole procedure.
3. No hanging clouds, precipitation, haze or strong/gusty winds.
In addition, following points are part of the flight preparation:
1. Phone call to the Samedan airport before we take off, to get their take on the weather, the traffic situation, VFR activities, etc..
2. Thorough briefing in the cockpit regarding go/no-go factors, procedures etc.., also BEFORE getting near LSZS
3. Early radio contact with Samedan, to reconfirm latest conditions, as well as talk with the other trafic. (by the way, on wednesday, we had a chat with an Swiss Air Force helicopter, a Pilatus 12 and a Challenger crew on scene before even cancelling our IFR)
4. In addition to the normal weather/notam briefing, a good long look at the military and other shooting activities (KOSIF), the Swiss VFR chart as well as the Swiss Glider chart (cables...) needs to be taken.
I won't even get into the passenger and company issues related to this kind of operation, as the differ so much case to case and company to company. But that's really where it all starts, because if there is any pressure from that side, the game gets very dangerous.
The point i'm trying to make is that sufficient information, discipline and common sense are safety factors all the time, and more so with airports like Samedan, Gstaad, or Aspen. I would much rather have a crew prepare thoroughly every time, then go near the operational limit, than impose some sort of company limit, which will then be applied without further thought.
I'm sure You have excellent reasons to apply Your own personal limits to operation in LSZS, influenced by Your experience, Your airplane and it's performance, Your company and Your passengers. There is nothing to say against a prudent attitude, ever. So good on You for not letting the company put pressure on You.
I have my own set of rules and guidelines, they are a result of experience and attitude, and I don't really like to be labelled suicidal by a fellow professional, even with a question mark...
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LSZS Local procedure
Hi saw your postings on Samedan. We are shortly operating a flight from India to Samedan , equipment Falcon 2000.
Would appreciate if you can brief me on the local procedures and tips.
Regards
Would appreciate if you can brief me on the local procedures and tips.
Regards
Guest
Posts: n/a
Altogether now..........search is your friend.
Engadin Airport St. Moritz Airlines: News
Watch out for the local cowboys coming out of the valleys and undertaking you.
Engadin Airport St. Moritz Airlines: News
Watch out for the local cowboys coming out of the valleys and undertaking you.
And don't do stupid things, don't go below MSA if there are too many clouds on downwind, even if you the valley of the airport is clear. There are some high mountains on downwind that you want to see, not kiss.
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While at it: http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/VP-BAF.pdf any updates available?
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Samedan 'Rocks'
Awesome place. !! Ive been in many times and it lots of different equipment but one thing is un-questionably clear..... this place MUST be treated with the utmost respect and professionalism. 
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Quote:
be prepared for EGPWS warnings on downwind !
gigi116, mate I think you might be doing something wrong.....
be prepared for EGPWS warnings on downwind !
gigi116, mate I think you might be doing something wrong.....
If the forecast is 50/50 we offer the owner the option of fly and see if it's possible, or decide at the outset to fly straight to Zurich.
On another note, we were once waiting to depart (delayed due to poor viz and low cloud) and listened to a SCHEDULED arrival attempting to find a hole through which to dive, so I guess the concept of "dive and arrive" at Samedan is not unique.
My only advise to those contemplating such an arrival is that when you find a hole that you consider big enough (you set your own criteria) - you check that ATC are not going to depart someone up into the same bit of airspace!
Other considerations:
Empty your bar before parking up for an overnight - everything will freeze!
Check the forecast the day before you plan to leave - you may not be able to get out. Think about positioning out empty the day before if it looks iffy, and taxi pax to meet you.
Geat skiing to be had while waiting downroute for a week or so!
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FlyMD. Quote ` I have my own set of rules ---`
I am sure that is very useful in a court of law when it all goes wrong!
I am sure that is very useful in a court of law when it all goes wrong!
