hawkerpilot

CL300:" Polishing their shoes....... well why not?"

If we can believe CL300 " Netjets pilots should polish customer shoes,."..Why not? he is asking well ......., let's give a bit more realistic view of the company:


Gents and ladies, don't believe to much what this guy is saying, his view is made in his Netjets dreamworld. He is like a schoolboy having a poster of a moviestar above his head. Nobody thinks like him, he is the dream of the commercial department but completely unrealistic.
Yes the customer pays our salary, so we try to make them happy, by getting him safely from a to b, smoothen things out, but polishing their shoes? If it happened, it must have been CL300 who did it. Actually, we think CL300 is a hoax, Netjets is what he wants to be. Because he is not in there he creates the dreamworld from the commercials. Nothing is wrong there. But because he is not from within but forms his version by listening to other peoples stories, he cannot be trusted.

To cut things short: The PEOPLE in Netjets are mostly fantastic people to work with, OPs, fellow crewmembers, other office departments . The management really sucks, filling their pockets with big bonusses. The Fleetmanagers are incompent unexperienced people which make our life miserable while covering their own back, some exceptions but they all left or were forced to leave, the guy running the training dep is a nice guy as well.
The flying is generally fun, but we are being pushed to the edge and over especially in the summermonths, the turnaround times are highly unrealistic and potentially endangering for those who do not slow down on purpose.
Another issue are our contracts, illegal, no benefits, money coming from dodgy places, and giving us no jobsecurity. the contract is first 3 year then undetermined but has a sentence saying" you can be fired anytime WITHOUT cause", there is no future plan, no retirement and frankly most people don't believe their promises anymore and are leaving, the majority have been with NJE for more then 3, 4 years, make your choice, but I believe there are much better alternatives with the airlines even if you are really lowtime. goodluck with your choice.

Smeagel

Hawkerpilot. I believe that what the company are saying is that anyone not on a Portuguese contract is used as described so that means........well, two thirds of the flying workforce.

We all know this is blatantly untrue, all the Court has to do is be shown examples of contracts and flight records.

Sounds like a last ditch attempt at avoiding a rather large bill. Six hundred or more crew backdated for a couple of years plus continuing payments for what, a thousand in the near future?









Has that whining noise in the background stopped yet?

CL300

You did not accept to send me your BB pin , you are still afraid of who is behind ? Still thinking of coming back to fly the 7X ?
NOBODY is anonymous in this world.

The quote of polishing the shoes is an answer to a question asked in the forum... but you should have quote it completely, and read it completely before.

erikv

Hawker,

CL300 is all flesh and blood, and on the NJE-payroll. I know, and so could you.

Nice to see that we do agree on some things and I am glad you've put it into writing:

I do'nt quite agree with your statement about management however. There may have been some issues in the past, but most of the key people we have now are too smart to think about short-term profits and bonusses only. Also, I have yet to meet the first colleague on my fleet who is not happy with our fleet manager and I hear the same from some other fleets.

As for illeagal contracts? Neither of us has been to law school, so it's hard to tell. But do you really believe the Berkshire Hathaway Group with access to the best lawyers in the world would screw up the pilot contracts?

Erik

Flintstone

How bizarre.

I know nothing about Portuguese court procedures (yet) but was wondering if he said that under oath?

hawkerpilot

Netjets wannabees need a clear picture what they are getting into, yes the grass is always greener but the view CL300 is giving comes straight from the commercial leaflets. The first week with Netjets (indoc) they will tell you even more bull like this.

After the first six months and out of the honeymoonperiod you are starting to have a different opinion. The opion I gave is representative of the majority of the people who are in the company for more than a few years. They have seen the reality.
Like I said, the people who work there except for the management are nice people and the work is fun.

When I leave this month I don't leave with resentment or unhappiness, but , like many , the reason most of us are leaving is that there is no long term future in this company with this management. Even under force of courtcases I doubt they will change. They do not sincerely care about us and our wellbeing otherwise the contracts would have been changed years ago. We have given up, we don't want to be working under a illegal contract anymore with no hope for the future.And you should think about your future, you still have probably more then 30-35 years to go if you are young. Go where you probably earn a little less but have a regular legal contract with social benefits, security etc and protection from unions who can fight your contract because it is made in e.g. UK or France or germany, not the isle of man.


Most of us are ex-airline and think it is time to move on. Netjets would not have been able to grow the way they did without our expertise in procedures, strict sop's and trainingexperience, but they do not realise it. The recruitment of ex-airline people is drying up and they chase the current pilots away or piss them off.

Netjets cannot exist on GA guys alone and that will become all too clear in the very near future when most of us "older guys in Netjets" are gone. So long ....

PPRuNeUser0215

With your number of recent posts, it is not exactly the impression you are giving.

NuName

hawkerpilot, do you ever do any work or just bitch and moan. I should imagine they will be pleased to see the going of you.

Fossy

Hi Hawkerpilot

go back on an airline. If I read all your posts, it's clear that you're not made at all to fly a Biz Jet. I know several of such guys who left an airline and startet working in Business Aviation, and a lot of them are lost, if they have to do anything besides flying the aircraft. By the way, why you left your former company?

P.S: I'm not a NJE employee

south coast

I have only been with NJE for a year and a half now, so perhaps some might still consider that the honeymoon period, but most of us are no fools.

We can see the good bits about the company and we can also see where things need to be addressed or changed, the bad bits.

But, NJE has said they are trying to identify the problems, ie. THE SURVEY, so I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, see what they say and what they intend to do with regards to peoples concerns.

I think most people will make their decision on how they react to what has been gathered from the survey, the ball is in NJE court and I hope they play it nicely otherwise they will have no one but themselves to blame.

hawkerpilot

the thread was about the fact that NJE cannot exist on GA guys alone. I know you guys think you are a fantastic bunch and always go-minded, but you need a structure based on procedures otherwise you never get the safety of the airlines but the random accidents of the GA world.

The growth of NJE coincided witha surplus of layed-off or unemployed airlinerpeople due to bankruptcies of several airlines.Those people wrote books for NJE, develloped Procedures, had the necessary training (TRI/TRE) experience only very few of you guys have.
You say we are cautious. I say we are safe.
Once again, without the expertise of the airlineguys NJE would not have made it.And yes airline people are a little spoiled, they want things taken care off and they want negotiations about the contract and wellbeing within the company. Most people who started the Uniondiscussion within NJE are ex -airline.
And now the jobs are coming back in aviation they want to have a choice. Before we were afraid to speak up, because if would have immidiat effect on your NJE career. Sounds strange to you? Then you have not in the company for more then 3 years.

So we have finally challenged NJE: You do it the legal way now or we are out of here because now we do have a choice: back to the security of the airlines and yes a bit more boredom, or mostly fun flying but no social benefits and no legal contract.
The point is that NJE never cared about us because they knew we had not much of a choice. The only reason they are giving you guys little presents is because they hope people will stay another 6 months, or year. That's why changes are never implemented immidiately, but always from the 1st of january, you finally got it?

This year almost 60 have left and they were 90 % the older experienced guys who have been in the company for some time, many were trainers, standardscaptains, TRI's. Does that ring a bell? most are captain.Nje takes a year to get someone to a captain if all goes smooth, IF they have the training capabillity.More so if they have to make the guy Trainer or TRI.So they are allready 60! captains behind this year who they will have to train extra next to there growthplans.And with the trainers leaving, the circle is round.
So
I
say again.

Netjets cannot do with the GA guys alone. Fact of life. Now it is too late, the majority pissed off and ready to go, leaving NJE in shambles.
Had the managers tried a bit more ,treated us fair and rewarded us with a normal contract with the same NETT salary, we probably woyld have stayed.
BUT NOW IT IS TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE.

EatMyShorts!

But still the sentenceis absolutely true, this is what I hear from A LOT of people when I meet them on the line.

manligsak

Firstly, Hawkerpilot, I thank you for taking your time to teach us lesser GA pilots some great procedures????? (like the take-off brief) (it is known of also outside the great procedural NetJets)

Secondly, I would suggest that you read the statistics of aircraft accidents and differentiate a "GA" accident from a BIZJET accident and perhaps you might reconsider your previous post???? ............... No, you probably won't..........but anyway..........

Thirdly, I have been in a few Corporate Companies now and they all have been great until they have decided to grow. Then for some unanswered reason the management of these companies think it's a good idea to ask airline people how to do things??? and guess what, these guys tries to impose airline procedures and operations into a company that has always operated as a BIZJET operation, the results????? Caos and some bankrupties and unemployed pilots (but off-course safer now that they know the procedures of a 737, nevermind they are flying a CE560).

Lastly, take an average 737 man and put him the CE560 with a typerating and minimum linetraining and see what you get???? Then reverse this, I.E. take the average CE560 guy and put him in a 737 aircraft with a typerating and minimum linetraining and see what happens????? (both as captains)

CL300

You have been well indoctrinated.. LoL This is a typical NJTA briefing. However, among everything WE are pilots. We have all different backgrounds, but the same license, some ex airline cadets saw only one side of aviation being fast-tracked to RH seat of a 737 or A320, trained to and with very strict procedures because it was absolute necessity when you put a 250 hours TT person in the cockpit, but airlines are airlines scheduled routes, in house training and procedures for most of them long term culture. Sabena, Swiss, to name a few, all of them died from their market niche with significant loses. One of the big NJTA issue is the way the company picture itself. We have on paper the organisation of an airline , we are going through all IOSA audits no problems, however the true essence of our trvel patterns is UNIQUE. WE as pilots need to be highly adaptable, this is not disregarding procedures and SOP, but being able to condense and think fast and ahead, not looking at your watch and say , now I have one hour on the ground even if the pax are already there , you have the picture...Or refusing to put pax bags in their cars, not escorting them, etc... This is a whole, it is a subtle mix. NJTA need experienced people wheter from airline or GA does not matter, ,Corporate department often have books well better written than airlines, it is just does not show this way.
I'm surprised that you did not mention the ex military people ? Most of the aircrafts we are flying today have been certified by ex military pilots with the most stringents procedures you will ever see, if you see them one day. ( I hope you would).
So after having bitching on the company, the new target are GA pilots ? Be realistic, the problems lies within you, you are definitely looking for a recognition that you have not found in our company, I wish for your own sake that you will find it where you are going , otherwise it will be the same story all over again.

Fly safe, enjoy and have always tailwinds in cruise (ego satisfaction)

CL300

You have been well indoctrinated.. LoL This is a typical NJTA briefing. However, among everything WE are pilots. We have all different backgrounds, but the same license, some ex airline cadets saw only one side of aviation being fast-tracked to RH seat of a 737 or A320, trained to and with very strict procedures because it was absolute necessity when you put a 250 hours TT person in the cockpit, but airlines are airlines scheduled routes, in house training and procedures for most of them long term culture. Sabena, Swiss, to name a few, all of them died from their market niche with significant loses. One of the big NJTA issue is the way the company picture itself. We have on paper the organisation of an airline , we are going through all IOSA audits no problems, however the true essence of our trvel patterns is UNIQUE. WE as pilots need to be highly adaptable, this is not disregarding procedures and SOP, but being able to condense and think fast and ahead, not looking at your watch and say , now I have one hour on the ground even if the pax are already there , you have the picture...Or refusing to put pax bags in their cars, not escorting them, etc... This is a whole, it is a subtle mix. NJTA need experienced people wheter from airline or GA does not matter, ,Corporate department often have books well better written than airlines, it is just does not show this way.
I'm surprised that you did not mention the ex military people ? Most of the aircrafts we are flying today have been certified by ex military pilots with the most stringents procedures you will ever see, if you see them one day. ( I hope you would).
So after having bitching on the company, the new target are GA pilots ? Be realistic, the problems lies within you, you are definitely looking for a recognition that you have not found in our company, I wish for your own sake that you will find it where you are going , otherwise it will be the same story all over again.
Fly safe, enjoy and have always tailwinds in cruise (ego satisfaction)

winkle

i am with cl300 on this one. it is not an airline and during my time i found a number of airline guys reluctant to go the extra distance when required and i also encountered the odd one that went too far. when i was with the company they were trying to get things sorted but nothing happens overnight esp in a rapidly expanding company. i know njta has a lot of faults so does every where else, in my opinion if you get a chance to fly for njta then go for it, the flying is second to none and you get a real sense of job satisfaction when you make the show work. you may think this strange coming from a former employer but i couldnt do the 18 days a month. give me 12 and i would be back tomorrow. fly safe everyone.

space pig

Netjets is under attack from it's Pilots with help from several Unions, because they are Fed up to operate under the current conditions with dubious contract and illegal workingconditions.

Perhaps it is better to leave now before it's too late

Your choice,but more then a few, especially the pilots living in France seem to be opting for this option , But I am sure what is happening in France will also happen in mine and other european countries, it will create a precedent.

almost 80 pilots have left so far this year, how are we going to cope, how is NJE going to cope????? I don't think they can.........

SP

silverhawk

Just go. Good luck

space pig

Silverhawk, you probably don't have an idea of the current situation, or the seriousness of it.Yes one hot topic of the moment is the question if NJE is going to change in a positive way or that it is just another delaying tactic and rule and divide trick, but the next very important topic is am I going to leave before the rest will, if I wait to long for "improvements" that will not come, the jobmarket might not be good anymore the way it is now.
Most crew are seriously thinking about aplying or have allready done that.
This means the "leftovers" have to deal with all the work which means quality of life is not going to get any better no matter what they will offer(2000 euro an extra day next summer?) Bottomline is that less pilots +more work(growth) = more leaving,

but perhaps that is what you want

erikv

Space Pig,

would you please elaborate on the seriousness of the current situation?

I'll tell you what I take seriously. Our new CEO been on the job for 6 months now and the atmosphere in the office has improved a lot. If you don't believe me, you probably were not at the end-of-summer party. There is still a lot of pressure on everyone there to produce, but communications are slowly improving and people aren't constantly looking over their shoulders anymore.

Our HR manager has been on the job for 2 months. In that time he has surveyed a large percentage of the staff, appointed key people to work with him and presented the results of the survey. To me, these showed that they mean business. About a month from now we are going to learn about the changes to contract and conditions. These are intended to attract and retain good staff so that we can man the 54 aircraft ordered recently.

Serious stuff, right?

Erik