NJE current employment issues & union moves (threads merged)
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NJE current employment issues & union moves (threads merged)
A group of NetJets Pilots has anounced the creation of a Union Task Force.
Purpose of the Task Force is to inform NJE Pilots about the benefits of Union recognition and professional contract negotiations.
The Task Force does not represent anybody, but provides information to NJE pilots.
The NJE Pilots work under 3 different contracts:
UK Contract may join IPA
Isle of Man Contract may join IPA
Portugese Contract may join APPLA
Regardless of Nationality and place of residence, Pilots on an Isle of Man contract can join IPA.
NJE management has in the past imposed and not negotiated changes to Terms and Conditions.
NETJETS EUROPE AIRCREW UNION PROJECT MISSION STATEMENT
We aim to provide professional representation for professional Aviators. Our mission is to enhance Pilot job security, salaries, benefits & working conditions, protecting them from competitive market forces by advocating a "Safety First" culture & by establishing collective bargaining standards that will provide a fractional industry benchmark in Europe. Strong Union representation neutralises Management pressures that focus on profits & hyper-expansion at the expense of the Aircrew experience base & proactive management. Professional career opportunities attract the best Pilots; -only professional bargaining & collective agreements provide durable professional career opportunities.
Purpose of the Task Force is to inform NJE Pilots about the benefits of Union recognition and professional contract negotiations.
The Task Force does not represent anybody, but provides information to NJE pilots.
The NJE Pilots work under 3 different contracts:
UK Contract may join IPA
Isle of Man Contract may join IPA
Portugese Contract may join APPLA
Regardless of Nationality and place of residence, Pilots on an Isle of Man contract can join IPA.
NJE management has in the past imposed and not negotiated changes to Terms and Conditions.
NETJETS EUROPE AIRCREW UNION PROJECT MISSION STATEMENT
We aim to provide professional representation for professional Aviators. Our mission is to enhance Pilot job security, salaries, benefits & working conditions, protecting them from competitive market forces by advocating a "Safety First" culture & by establishing collective bargaining standards that will provide a fractional industry benchmark in Europe. Strong Union representation neutralises Management pressures that focus on profits & hyper-expansion at the expense of the Aircrew experience base & proactive management. Professional career opportunities attract the best Pilots; -only professional bargaining & collective agreements provide durable professional career opportunities.
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I am starting INDOC soon and I am very happy to hear thats someone is starting this union to improve for netjets pilots. A lot of negetive threads on this forum, nice to see some positive too before entering the doors down in lisbon.
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You can still change your mind, but if you go good luck, Unions might help in improving things but Netjets has never given in so far. Every contract change was forced upon us and no one who has been fired has been reinstated except for some portugese guys who went to court. More are going to court as we speak and Netjets can expect a very rough time in the future. The question is are they going to admit their fault policy or register all the aircraft e.g in Siera Leone to avoid the tax issues. The good thing is that at least you are well informed before you start, something we could not say 4 years ago, and you know the possible concequences.....
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You can still change your mind, but if you go good luck, Unions might help in improving things but Netjets has never given in so far. Every contract change was forced upon us and no one who has been fired has been reinstated except for some portugese guys who went to court. More are going to court as we speak and Netjets can expect a very rough time in the future. The question is are they going to admit their fault policy or register all the aircraft e.g in Siera Leone to avoid the tax issues. The good thing is that at least you are well informed before you start, something we could not say 4 years ago, and you know the possible concequences.....
If you were not informed when you joined, well (LOT OF LAUGH) you deserve your situation today. Netjets is the easiest GA operator in Europe, at times where Global jet is switching to 20 ON / 10 OFF, and many others got days off only when the owner does not want to fly the pick is not difficult IF you want to fly a C550 and above. If you think that your ego need to carry more than 45000 Lbs of fuel then you should go to Airlines and fly 4 sectors a day and ending up in LTN or Bergamo. If you are looking at a closed cockpit door in stainless steel, that you are believing in Airport security, and that the most change you can handle is an LMC of payload, then you HAVE to leave our company, you were not ready for the job, sadly, you did not see the good life behind it, and in 6 /8 months down with your "new" job, you will realize how easy it was.
Of course the company is not perfect and except ( I'm not even sure) the BIG one's you will find more or less the same stuff all around.
Have a great time but stop bitching, because most probably than not, you would not have found this other job without the 2500 hours you have done with NJE....
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How predictable. Depends on your definition of 'good cause' I suppose.If daring to write up snags in the Tech Log is good cause you are right.
If being perceived as a trouble maker (aka 'setting up a crew website') is
good cause you are right.
If being seen as someone who gets on too well with their crews (ok, that was a demotion but tantamount to dismissal which ultimately will see the person leaving) you are right.
If being disliked by certain members of management is good cause then you are of course right.
CL300. You imply that all dismissals at NJE were warranted and fair. To make such a statement you must be privy to the facts, in all cases. The only way you could have that is to be upper management. Which explains your posts.
The alternative is that you do not have access to all the information in which case you have no right to make such a statement.
So, straight question. Are you management or are you making statements without full possession of the facts?
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If buying a bottle instead of drinking it is a good cause to fire someone you are right......
If not being able to put a clients luggage in his car is a good cause you are right....
If landing at the wrong airport because you are given a black and white copy of the VFR airport and surroundings, hardly readable, instaed of supplying the crews with correct information, is a good cause,you are right....(by the way, because they were portugese and went to court, having a portugues contract, they were forced to take them back)
If demoting people because they file an ASR of a small levelbust in the uncontrolled african skies, is a good cause, you are right, By the way nobody files ASR's anymore, wonder how that comes.....
All the fine people at the office who just did their job for peanuts and made a small mistake were a good cause? you are right again.
But you are not right, we all know how netjets reins, with fear and you will soon see that WE are right, the normal majority of pilots who finally dare to speak up!
If not being able to put a clients luggage in his car is a good cause you are right....
If landing at the wrong airport because you are given a black and white copy of the VFR airport and surroundings, hardly readable, instaed of supplying the crews with correct information, is a good cause,you are right....(by the way, because they were portugese and went to court, having a portugues contract, they were forced to take them back)
If demoting people because they file an ASR of a small levelbust in the uncontrolled african skies, is a good cause, you are right, By the way nobody files ASR's anymore, wonder how that comes.....
All the fine people at the office who just did their job for peanuts and made a small mistake were a good cause? you are right again.
But you are not right, we all know how netjets reins, with fear and you will soon see that WE are right, the normal majority of pilots who finally dare to speak up!
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BUt, as George Orwell Used to say : "some people are more equal than others"
If people from the management make mistakes like xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx who was also about to land on the wrong runway(luckily ATC just prevented it) you get not punished.
The same guy had a stickshaker activate at high level, nearly stalled but managed to keep the story within a small group of people, then you do not get demoted or fired, what an example to his crew.
On the 800 however we had a good fleetmanager that was taking care of his crews an defending them, he was removed ofcourse......
Ever wondered why so many managers have left, and the same ones stay? think again.
As long as they stay Netjets will continue their fear management and nothing will change...
Regarding the stick shake incident there is a very important learning curve going on worldwide. Major, I mean major, airlines utterly dwarfing NJE are having incidents of stick shake/buffet warning and worse at high altitude.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that high altitude events such as this are approaching an epidemic at the moment but still at the stage where companies are working in house and the information is not yet being promulgated worldwide by safety organisations, aviation authorities or by airframers in a way that will reach you guys formally on the line. As well as the inside knowledge I have running the site for the past ten years I have direct personal experience of normal SOP's and available power simply not being enough for an aircraft to perform as advertised in recent months. Be very careful up there - we've all seen crazy temperatures up there this year and very experienced pilots and airlines are being caught out both in Europe and the US.
Regards
Rob - PPRuNe Towers
If people from the management make mistakes like xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx who was also about to land on the wrong runway(luckily ATC just prevented it) you get not punished.
The same guy had a stickshaker activate at high level, nearly stalled but managed to keep the story within a small group of people, then you do not get demoted or fired, what an example to his crew.
On the 800 however we had a good fleetmanager that was taking care of his crews an defending them, he was removed ofcourse......
Ever wondered why so many managers have left, and the same ones stay? think again.
As long as they stay Netjets will continue their fear management and nothing will change...
Regarding the stick shake incident there is a very important learning curve going on worldwide. Major, I mean major, airlines utterly dwarfing NJE are having incidents of stick shake/buffet warning and worse at high altitude.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that high altitude events such as this are approaching an epidemic at the moment but still at the stage where companies are working in house and the information is not yet being promulgated worldwide by safety organisations, aviation authorities or by airframers in a way that will reach you guys formally on the line. As well as the inside knowledge I have running the site for the past ten years I have direct personal experience of normal SOP's and available power simply not being enough for an aircraft to perform as advertised in recent months. Be very careful up there - we've all seen crazy temperatures up there this year and very experienced pilots and airlines are being caught out both in Europe and the US.
Regards
Rob - PPRuNe Towers
CL300, Flintstone, Mike Jenvey, Smeagels Mum and anyone else out there that might like to believe that no-one has been fired without good cause:
One simple question:
Why is NetJets spending a fortune on lawyers who exploit every trick, legal or not, to keep cases out of court rather than have their day presenting their case that these guys were treated fairly and justly?
Work it out guys!
One simple question:
Why is NetJets spending a fortune on lawyers who exploit every trick, legal or not, to keep cases out of court rather than have their day presenting their case that these guys were treated fairly and justly?
Work it out guys!
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"CL300, Flintstone, Mike Jenvey, Smeagels Mum and anyone else out there that might like to believe that no-one has been fired without good cause:"
I think Mr Flintstone may have something to say about the comment above............
I think Mr Flintstone may have something to say about the comment above............
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If buying a bottle instead of drinking it is a good cause to fire someone you are right......
If not being able to put a clients luggage in his car is a good cause you are right....
If landing at the wrong airport because you are given a black and white copy of the VFR airport and surroundings, hardly readable, instaed of supplying the crews with correct information, is a good cause,you are right....(by the way, because they were portugese and went to court, having a portugues contract, they were forced to take them back)
If demoting people because they file an ASR of a small levelbust in the uncontrolled african skies, is a good cause, you are right, By the way nobody files ASR's anymore, wonder how that comes.....
All the fine people at the office who just did their job for peanuts and made a small mistake were a good cause? you are right again.
But you are not right, we all know how netjets reins, with fear and you will soon see that WE are right, the normal majority of pilots who finally dare to speak up!
If not being able to put a clients luggage in his car is a good cause you are right....
If landing at the wrong airport because you are given a black and white copy of the VFR airport and surroundings, hardly readable, instaed of supplying the crews with correct information, is a good cause,you are right....(by the way, because they were portugese and went to court, having a portugues contract, they were forced to take them back)
If demoting people because they file an ASR of a small levelbust in the uncontrolled african skies, is a good cause, you are right, By the way nobody files ASR's anymore, wonder how that comes.....
All the fine people at the office who just did their job for peanuts and made a small mistake were a good cause? you are right again.
But you are not right, we all know how netjets reins, with fear and you will soon see that WE are right, the normal majority of pilots who finally dare to speak up!
First 2 cases quoted, well good cause absolutely, you signed up to give a service and deliver a product, if not well.....
Landing at a wrong airport and doing what they did after, poor airmanship indeed then yes
Level bust...demoted not fired
Lisbon ground crew are not flight crew. period
ASR, and pilot report for myself at least once a tour, this is how we can learn...
Last edited by CL300; 16th Oct 2006 at 16:12. Reason: those typos
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BUt, as George Orwell Used to say : "some people are more equal than others"
If people from the management make mistakes like xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx who was also about to land on the wrong runway(luckily ATC just prevented it) you get not punished.
The same guy had a stickshaker activate at high level, nearly stalled but managed to keep the story within a small group of people, then you do not get demoted or fired, what an example to his crew.
On the 800 however we had a good fleetmanager that was taking care of his crews an defending them, he was removed ofcourse......
Ever wondered why so many managers have left, and the same ones stay? think again.
As long as they stay Netjets will continue their fear management and nothing will change...
Regarding the stick shake incident there is a very important learning curve going on worldwide. Major, I mean major, airlines utterly dwarfing NJE are having incidents of stick shake/buffet warning and worse at high altitude.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that high altitude events such as this are approaching an epidemic at the moment but still at the stage where companies are working in house and the information is not yet being promulgated worldwide by safety organisations, aviation authorities or by airframers in a way that will reach you guys formally on the line. As well as the inside knowledge I have running the site for the past ten years I have direct personal experience of normal SOP's and available power simply not being enough for an aircraft to perform as advertised in recent months. Be very careful up there - we've all seen crazy temperatures up there this year and very experienced pilots and airlines are being caught out both in Europe and the US.
Regards
Rob - PPRuNe Towers
If people from the management make mistakes like xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx who was also about to land on the wrong runway(luckily ATC just prevented it) you get not punished.
The same guy had a stickshaker activate at high level, nearly stalled but managed to keep the story within a small group of people, then you do not get demoted or fired, what an example to his crew.
On the 800 however we had a good fleetmanager that was taking care of his crews an defending them, he was removed ofcourse......
Ever wondered why so many managers have left, and the same ones stay? think again.
As long as they stay Netjets will continue their fear management and nothing will change...
Regarding the stick shake incident there is a very important learning curve going on worldwide. Major, I mean major, airlines utterly dwarfing NJE are having incidents of stick shake/buffet warning and worse at high altitude.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that high altitude events such as this are approaching an epidemic at the moment but still at the stage where companies are working in house and the information is not yet being promulgated worldwide by safety organisations, aviation authorities or by airframers in a way that will reach you guys formally on the line. As well as the inside knowledge I have running the site for the past ten years I have direct personal experience of normal SOP's and available power simply not being enough for an aircraft to perform as advertised in recent months. Be very careful up there - we've all seen crazy temperatures up there this year and very experienced pilots and airlines are being caught out both in Europe and the US.
Regards
Rob - PPRuNe Towers
Hey mate (hawker) stop talking about facts you have no clues with, especially here, do not listen to the rumours too much, speak with the guys and get YOURSELF an opinion.
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Are you going to answer my question CL300? Are you senior management spouting the company mantra or guessing from the outside?
We are waiting.
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What do YOU think ? You should remember better my posts, answer included at no costs but "search"
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I think that says it all.
Then again, you've as good as answered. That's the way up the greasy pole, eh?
Last edited by Flintstone; 16th Oct 2006 at 23:36.
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I like you sense of humour, But, I have ask you to pm and that I would reply with my IRL name. Your answer was somewhat frustrating.
Smeagel, come on, I did answer your question twice, as for the books that you have not read properly, I can say again
No I'm not from the top management.
Not that I would mind to be, but the interesting positions are already taken
Smeagel, come on, I did answer your question twice, as for the books that you have not read properly, I can say again
No I'm not from the top management. Not that I would mind to be, but the interesting positions are already taken
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CL300, Flintstone, Mike Jenvey, Smeagels Mum and anyone else out there that might like to believe that no-one has been fired without good cause:
One simple question:
Why is NetJets spending a fortune on lawyers who exploit every trick, legal or not, to keep cases out of court rather than have their day presenting their case that these guys were treated fairly and justly?
Work it out guys!
One simple question:
Why is NetJets spending a fortune on lawyers who exploit every trick, legal or not, to keep cases out of court rather than have their day presenting their case that these guys were treated fairly and justly?
Work it out guys!
" A bad settlement is much better than a good court case. "
Year one of any management school.
Ah yes, but would it be bad publicity?
Rule number one is actually "any publicity is good publicity."
They could show the world that they are a great company to work for and that all their employees are treated with fairness and respect and put an end to this ongoing debate.
Or perhaps they couldn't and that is the problem!
Maybe a court could find that they are exploiters of the worst kind and that so much of the doings in Lisbon are simply not legal.
Would that be the publicity they would choose to avoid CL300?
Rule number one is actually "any publicity is good publicity."
They could show the world that they are a great company to work for and that all their employees are treated with fairness and respect and put an end to this ongoing debate.
Or perhaps they couldn't and that is the problem!
Maybe a court could find that they are exploiters of the worst kind and that so much of the doings in Lisbon are simply not legal.
Would that be the publicity they would choose to avoid CL300?
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Ah yes, but would it be bad publicity?
Rule number one is actually "any publicity is good publicity."
They could show the world that they are a great company to work for and that all their employees are treated with fairness and respect and put an end to this ongoing debate.
Or perhaps they couldn't and that is the problem!
Maybe a court could find that they are exploiters of the worst kind and that so much of the doings in Lisbon are simply not legal.
Would that be the publicity they would choose to avoid CL300?
Rule number one is actually "any publicity is good publicity."
They could show the world that they are a great company to work for and that all their employees are treated with fairness and respect and put an end to this ongoing debate.
Or perhaps they couldn't and that is the problem!
Maybe a court could find that they are exploiters of the worst kind and that so much of the doings in Lisbon are simply not legal.
Would that be the publicity they would choose to avoid CL300?
Management is management, usually, employees do not like management because they maximise their productivity against the employee welfare. You have to fight to get the thing straight, but the bottom line is that it is not always better next door.
The rule that says that any publicity is good, is to be ponderate towards the side effect of public opinion, so this is why LSE and other MBA in US and mainland europe are teaching a more into an in-house settlement with employees instead of going public. Court cases within companies are another subject, and another department in the respectives institutions.
Regarding the office people in Lisbon, I cannot say since I'm down there once in a while like everybody; so rumours and personnal griefs, I do not know. I know that all of them are commited, and that all of them got a lot of pressure, well an usual office life so to speak...
To rebound to another thread that was on sometime ago, if you are not happy with the company, and since the grass seems undoubtely greener elsewhere, than one's should go for it immediately, and forget about this "awfull time" he/she had to do with the EASIEST GA OPERATION (pilot wise) in Europe.