Dodgy Netjets contract/paying arrangements is bringing NJE pilots in deep trouble
Hi Erik,
we'll talk again in 1 year when you are exhausted
Look, we are not asking for golden contracts, we are asking for decent and competetive contracts that will constantly attract competent pilots and not just 1500TT-buddies. Don't misunderstand me, they are fine people, but they have such a hard time to cope with our rythm of life and with our operation that sometimes you are alone on the flightdeck!
Regarding the average pilot experience in this company there's a significant discrepency between what NJE posts on its website and what the reality is. We are still on the safe side but eventually we are getting into dangerously shallow waters where this ship might not be able to swim anymore.
If you want to have experienced people in this company you need to offer a non-dodgy contract and show and actively live a respectful treatment of your colleagues. At the moment it seems that middle and lower management do not tell the truth to upper management about what is going on on a daily basis. It is exhausting to keep on fighting against various departments, the flow of communication is bad.
To put it into one sentence: Basically I like this company, but to make it a company to stay for a while (or even forever) many things need to be changed radically, it is a question of mentality - this could be such a great company!!!
we'll talk again in 1 year when you are exhausted
Look, we are not asking for golden contracts, we are asking for decent and competetive contracts that will constantly attract competent pilots and not just 1500TT-buddies. Don't misunderstand me, they are fine people, but they have such a hard time to cope with our rythm of life and with our operation that sometimes you are alone on the flightdeck!
Regarding the average pilot experience in this company there's a significant discrepency between what NJE posts on its website and what the reality is. We are still on the safe side but eventually we are getting into dangerously shallow waters where this ship might not be able to swim anymore.
If you want to have experienced people in this company you need to offer a non-dodgy contract and show and actively live a respectful treatment of your colleagues. At the moment it seems that middle and lower management do not tell the truth to upper management about what is going on on a daily basis. It is exhausting to keep on fighting against various departments, the flow of communication is bad.
To put it into one sentence: Basically I like this company, but to make it a company to stay for a while (or even forever) many things need to be changed radically, it is a question of mentality - this could be such a great company!!!
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Just had lunch with a mate of mine who has just started with Netjets, it suits him well and he will gain some great experience there. He is happy.
BUT.............nothing has really changed since I joined 7 years ago. All this hope is quite touching really.
Netjets is run by bean counters and they know the cost of everything but the value of NOTHING. Never have, never will.
Good luck to you poor souls.
BUT.............nothing has really changed since I joined 7 years ago. All this hope is quite touching really.
Netjets is run by bean counters and they know the cost of everything but the value of NOTHING. Never have, never will.
Good luck to you poor souls.
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erik.
The problem with the regulations is that they are written with airlines in mind. Crew show up 45 minutes before daparture, aircraft is fuelled and warmed up by ground crew, paperwork completed, ready to go. Now tell us how your day starts?
Proper airlines would count your travel on day one. Those five hours difference between 55-60 ar easily eaten up on day one in NJE. Have a look at a split duty day with no rest accomodation, duty finishing on blocks and starting again at departure time (no ground crew remember). Suddenly the sunny picture you paint has a few clouds in it.
As EatMyShorts says, see you in a year when you've been consistently rostered with a 1500 hour newbie who has had minimal training and you have had minimal rest for six months. I tell you my friend, everybody changes their view once the honeymoon period is over.
The problem with the regulations is that they are written with airlines in mind. Crew show up 45 minutes before daparture, aircraft is fuelled and warmed up by ground crew, paperwork completed, ready to go. Now tell us how your day starts?
Proper airlines would count your travel on day one. Those five hours difference between 55-60 ar easily eaten up on day one in NJE. Have a look at a split duty day with no rest accomodation, duty finishing on blocks and starting again at departure time (no ground crew remember). Suddenly the sunny picture you paint has a few clouds in it.
As EatMyShorts says, see you in a year when you've been consistently rostered with a 1500 hour newbie who has had minimal training and you have had minimal rest for six months. I tell you my friend, everybody changes their view once the honeymoon period is over.
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I'm not wearing pink glasses and I'm not saying everything is perfect. But for those who like a little more adventure than shuttling between the same few destinations, the downsides may just be part of the package.
There is definitely room for improvement in terms of an onshore contract, payscale and FTLs. But I see that this is getting attention in Lisbon and I also appreciate that we don't have the same people in management compared to three years ago. They have realised that there is a need for improvement, but things don't change overnight. Communications are improving and a dialogue is starting with the W.O. project.
While we are waiting for this to materialise, I think we should maintain a balanced picture to the world. The first few posts on this thread are not going to help bring in sufficient newhires, which in turn is reducing the chances of getting 6/5 in the future.
Erik
There is definitely room for improvement in terms of an onshore contract, payscale and FTLs. But I see that this is getting attention in Lisbon and I also appreciate that we don't have the same people in management compared to three years ago. They have realised that there is a need for improvement, but things don't change overnight. Communications are improving and a dialogue is starting with the W.O. project.
While we are waiting for this to materialise, I think we should maintain a balanced picture to the world. The first few posts on this thread are not going to help bring in sufficient newhires, which in turn is reducing the chances of getting 6/5 in the future.
Erik
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"The first few posts on this thread are not going to help bring in sufficient newhires, which in turn is reducing the chances of getting 6/5 in the future. "
Erik
So Erik,
We should lure these new pilots into our sh*t ,unknown to them, so that you can have your 6/5, the company will be laughing with remarks like these, better said, you are pretty selfish.
No, if you want to get the best, you must first accept to go through the worst.
Only when they get really short on pilots will they realise that things will have to change.If they don't have a problem why should they care?
You are either still a youngster in this company or have hit your head against a bedpost when you got waken up by opearations for a very early wake up call......
Erik
So Erik,
We should lure these new pilots into our sh*t ,unknown to them, so that you can have your 6/5, the company will be laughing with remarks like these, better said, you are pretty selfish.
No, if you want to get the best, you must first accept to go through the worst.
Only when they get really short on pilots will they realise that things will have to change.If they don't have a problem why should they care?
You are either still a youngster in this company or have hit your head against a bedpost when you got waken up by opearations for a very early wake up call......
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There is no real difference for the people on the ground in Lisbon.
You give up your life in whatever country and move over without seeing a contract. Maybe 4-6 weeks later you finally see your contract, what are you going to do if it sucks? You have sold your house etc, you are pretty much comitted. So you stick with it while recieving ZERO training (this is begining to change in some departments) only to find out all is not straight forward.
You first contract is valid for 7 months and they can let you go at any point until 15 day before the renewal date. Not sure how that works when you receive no training, have vague Terms of Reference, there are no SOPs to follow and no formal performance interview proccess. After you first 7 months you then sign another temporary 7 month contract (no one tells you this, you have to ask the right people) where the same rules apply.
So for 14 months you are in limbo and it would be unwise to fully commit to life in Portugal until you have your permannet contract. This is no way to treat employees. Hopefully this will improve with the new head of HR and the CEOs efforts to improve things.
You give up your life in whatever country and move over without seeing a contract. Maybe 4-6 weeks later you finally see your contract, what are you going to do if it sucks? You have sold your house etc, you are pretty much comitted. So you stick with it while recieving ZERO training (this is begining to change in some departments) only to find out all is not straight forward.
You first contract is valid for 7 months and they can let you go at any point until 15 day before the renewal date. Not sure how that works when you receive no training, have vague Terms of Reference, there are no SOPs to follow and no formal performance interview proccess. After you first 7 months you then sign another temporary 7 month contract (no one tells you this, you have to ask the right people) where the same rules apply.
So for 14 months you are in limbo and it would be unwise to fully commit to life in Portugal until you have your permannet contract. This is no way to treat employees. Hopefully this will improve with the new head of HR and the CEOs efforts to improve things.
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Hawkerpilot,
I don't think we're in sh.t. Is it the company or your tax situation that has made you this bitter? Because I think it's not bad at all, I am quite happy to encourage others to join (note that I WILL tell them it is NOT perfect).
Things have started to change, so there is no need to put a whole lot of pressure on management. The message has come through clear. Increasing the pressure artificially by deterring newhires will hurt us, our hardworking colleagues in the office and our management. My message to those who consider joining is this: if you'd be happy with the current package, you will like it even more in the future. As FormerFlake ackowledges, there are efforts to improve.
Erik.
I don't think we're in sh.t. Is it the company or your tax situation that has made you this bitter? Because I think it's not bad at all, I am quite happy to encourage others to join (note that I WILL tell them it is NOT perfect).
Things have started to change, so there is no need to put a whole lot of pressure on management. The message has come through clear. Increasing the pressure artificially by deterring newhires will hurt us, our hardworking colleagues in the office and our management. My message to those who consider joining is this: if you'd be happy with the current package, you will like it even more in the future. As FormerFlake ackowledges, there are efforts to improve.
Erik.
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Things have started to change, so there is no need to put a whole lot of pressure on management. The message has come through clear.
Dear Erik,
I have believed that for years, I wanted this to get better because I liked the job. Every now and then when people were completely fed up (again), they would throw us a few cookies to keep us happy again: The 1st of july this will change, the 1st of jan we will pay you a bit extra; Now were are going to have a safetycomitee, THAT will change for you, you can speak up now..(we all know what a farce that has become, people report less then before due to the fact that who speaks up, get's punished)..etc. etc...... the grey beards amongst us have seen it come and go, some lost a significant part of their salary because they "suddenly"got another contract.others were forced to leave because they were to critical, others were accused of things they had not done, no trial no discussion, you are out. We lost some really nice collegues.And these were no gossipstories , this was firsthand because it were our friends. You know there was a time in Netjets, before you joined that we were just a small group of people, so we knew what was happening. Many accepted the sh.t because most of us were layed off or fired due to bankruptcy of established companies.That was the reason netjets could grow, there was plenty of experience out there.
You erik have not been here long enough to remember when they had send us a new contract (which was allready effective 2 months earlier), changing our 6-5 into 18 months, their was no discussion :you sign it or go.
I can go on and on but you will see that all these little thing will add up to the big picture and it suddenly strikes you what years you wasted...
Now aviation is booming you should grab your chances. Get yourself a proper job before it all goes downhill again , I have seen that happen allrady a few times being in this stuff for allmost two decades.
Netjets offers no future, no long term plan (10 year max) no decent arrangements when you are to old and sick or fed up to fly.
well, fill in the rest yourself. as long as people know what they are getting into and still join ,fine, at least they are better informed then what I was years ago......and then this whole discussion makes a lot of sense and saves other from making a big mistake.
Dear Erik,
I have believed that for years, I wanted this to get better because I liked the job. Every now and then when people were completely fed up (again), they would throw us a few cookies to keep us happy again: The 1st of july this will change, the 1st of jan we will pay you a bit extra; Now were are going to have a safetycomitee, THAT will change for you, you can speak up now..(we all know what a farce that has become, people report less then before due to the fact that who speaks up, get's punished)..etc. etc...... the grey beards amongst us have seen it come and go, some lost a significant part of their salary because they "suddenly"got another contract.others were forced to leave because they were to critical, others were accused of things they had not done, no trial no discussion, you are out. We lost some really nice collegues.And these were no gossipstories , this was firsthand because it were our friends. You know there was a time in Netjets, before you joined that we were just a small group of people, so we knew what was happening. Many accepted the sh.t because most of us were layed off or fired due to bankruptcy of established companies.That was the reason netjets could grow, there was plenty of experience out there.
You erik have not been here long enough to remember when they had send us a new contract (which was allready effective 2 months earlier), changing our 6-5 into 18 months, their was no discussion :you sign it or go.
I can go on and on but you will see that all these little thing will add up to the big picture and it suddenly strikes you what years you wasted...
Now aviation is booming you should grab your chances. Get yourself a proper job before it all goes downhill again , I have seen that happen allrady a few times being in this stuff for allmost two decades.
Netjets offers no future, no long term plan (10 year max) no decent arrangements when you are to old and sick or fed up to fly.
well, fill in the rest yourself. as long as people know what they are getting into and still join ,fine, at least they are better informed then what I was years ago......and then this whole discussion makes a lot of sense and saves other from making a big mistake.
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when i was in the process of leaving i used to tell the pax i was leaving and also if i knew the pax, the reasons why i was leaving. i didnt whinge to them or make a drama i just told them i felt myself going down hill in terms of culminative fatigue. that is to say 18 days or more a month on the road with totally inadequate leave is not a player. i have seen nj pilots around the bazzars and they look knackered. i for one would not like to have spent a HUGE amount of dosh on a share and then be flown by people who were suffering the hidden effects of long term culminative fatigue. even when i was leaving some of the sales people i had on board would say the pilots worked 6/5 i made it my business to let them know the truth. i really wanted nj to do well and be part of that team but to take advantage of pilots like they did was off side. look around you its a pilots market.
