MMMmmmiles Aircraft
Treadders et al
Having suffered the 'joys' of flight in the Marathon, I, for one , shed no tears on its demise. Auntie Mary's flying club were inveigled into buying some for use as Nav trainers. Their saving grace was the disposition of the flap and gear levers being such that inadvertent gear retraction instead of flaps was quite possible and lead to the early retirement of more than one.
The design was such that a large quantity of sandbags were required under the pilot's seats to allow an approximation to fuselage level flight - but still VERY nose up. Boarding had to be carried out one at a time, otherwise it sat on its tail.
On one of the two local flying trips from Thorney, I had its asymmetric operation demonstrated (I was going to say 'asymmetric performance' but there was none!) Just two of us on board and with two engines out it went downhill splendidly with just about full rudder AND aileron to keep the wings level!
Not one of Mr Miles better efforts and the only aircraft in which I came very close to being airsick.
Having suffered the 'joys' of flight in the Marathon, I, for one , shed no tears on its demise. Auntie Mary's flying club were inveigled into buying some for use as Nav trainers. Their saving grace was the disposition of the flap and gear levers being such that inadvertent gear retraction instead of flaps was quite possible and lead to the early retirement of more than one.
The design was such that a large quantity of sandbags were required under the pilot's seats to allow an approximation to fuselage level flight - but still VERY nose up. Boarding had to be carried out one at a time, otherwise it sat on its tail.
On one of the two local flying trips from Thorney, I had its asymmetric operation demonstrated (I was going to say 'asymmetric performance' but there was none!) Just two of us on board and with two engines out it went downhill splendidly with just about full rudder AND aileron to keep the wings level!
Not one of Mr Miles better efforts and the only aircraft in which I came very close to being airsick.
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Hairyplane: Well, I'm 57 and do have high blood pressure, so no sympathy from me! My very first flights, at age six and seven were in Miles types — a Messenger as yet not positively identified, but narrowed down to G-AILL or 'JWB, and Gemini 'KHE, which crashed a week later into Hilsea Gasworks on the boundary of Portsmouth Airport following an engine failure on take-off, fortunately without serious injury to pilot Len Snook. Some years later, around 1959, Snook, who was a local bookmaker, took me for a ride in the unique Gemini 8 'KFX, which was close to Aries standard. Subsequent time spent, delightfully, in the company of George Miles, Jack Angel, 'Dicky' Bird, Ranald Porteous and other Miles luminaries account for my present plight as an incorrigible Miles enthusiast, if not for the hypertension. The ex-Ulster Whitney is coming along well, Ron tells me, with a very skilled woodworker on it full-time (this chap also worked on the Speed Six when Ron and his team converted it back to as close as possible to original configuration).
Treadigraph: Winn's Aries 'OGA was moved to the South East Aviation Enthusiasts Group at New Ross, Co. Wexford a few years ago, and so far as I know is still in store there. The Sparrowjet-cum-hawk is owned by Fred Dunkerley's family and will emerge as an M.5 Sparrowhawk, incorporating original parts removed in 1950-53 when Dunkerley had Miles rebuild as the M.77.
Cornish Jack: I well remember the Air Navigatioin School Marathons flying out of Thorney Island. Seem also to recall seeing one there looking rather sad after a gear-up (this in the days when you could ride your bike across the airfield to get to the village) but it might have been a Varsity — not poor recognition, just middle-aged brain fade!
Great stuff for we Miles maniacs on this thread, let's keep it going.
Treadigraph: Winn's Aries 'OGA was moved to the South East Aviation Enthusiasts Group at New Ross, Co. Wexford a few years ago, and so far as I know is still in store there. The Sparrowjet-cum-hawk is owned by Fred Dunkerley's family and will emerge as an M.5 Sparrowhawk, incorporating original parts removed in 1950-53 when Dunkerley had Miles rebuild as the M.77.
Cornish Jack: I well remember the Air Navigatioin School Marathons flying out of Thorney Island. Seem also to recall seeing one there looking rather sad after a gear-up (this in the days when you could ride your bike across the airfield to get to the village) but it might have been a Varsity — not poor recognition, just middle-aged brain fade!
Great stuff for we Miles maniacs on this thread, let's keep it going.
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Hi Philip W
I have seen the Magazine thank you. I have a copy.
Pity David didn't contact me beforehand - I would have been pleased to fly with him in my Maggie.
For you purists out there, my aircraft as V1075 and one of the last, didn't actually wear its lovely yellow paint scheme, with polished cowling, spats et al.
However, during one of many crashes the fuselage was replaced with an earlier one.
An amusing entry in the logbook in the 50's (its late so I will look it up another time) says something like, 'compasses swung, altimetres checked/ recalibrated, fuselage tailplane fin and rudder replaced with serviceable items' !!!!
Research reveals this fuz to have been from N3788, a 1938 machine.
I think you will agree that the identity of an aircraft relates to the fuselage so I am puzzled as to why PF wasn't painted in the earlier markings.
This does effectively give total authenticity to the yellow scheme.
Better to change it than to get the olive drab roller out and rip the spats off???
Just kidding.....
Anybody out there got any undercarriage parts for the Maggie?
Mine has had a PFA-approved mod to replace the original Airdraulic internals with rubber-blocks in suspension.
These are a little harsh on the poor old thing, resulting in a severe hammering when I displayed it at Woburn - rough strip or what??!!
Nice to fit the squidgy originals.
Falcon - Feb03 FlyPast is out now. An in-depth feature is planned in the Spring in Air Enthusiast. Lots of wonderful old piccies.
Wonderful to communicate with so many Miles enthusiasts.
Top of my wish-list is a Hawk.
For those who don't know it - imagine a Maggie but with Falcon trousered U/C and tailplane and a more slender fuz - voila and drop dead gorgeous.
Handling on the Maggie is a bit quirky and caught a few young pilots out in the war with often fatal consequences.
I have a copy of a document marked 'Secret' produced by the RAE at Farnborough in response to this problem.
In short, there is a marked pitch-down in the sideslip.
Solution? Don't sideslip it. The flaps are incredible. Another gotcha actually if you get it wrong but, thats another story...
Keep it coming! Wonderful!
HP
Pity David didn't contact me beforehand - I would have been pleased to fly with him in my Maggie.
For you purists out there, my aircraft as V1075 and one of the last, didn't actually wear its lovely yellow paint scheme, with polished cowling, spats et al.
However, during one of many crashes the fuselage was replaced with an earlier one.
An amusing entry in the logbook in the 50's (its late so I will look it up another time) says something like, 'compasses swung, altimetres checked/ recalibrated, fuselage tailplane fin and rudder replaced with serviceable items' !!!!
Research reveals this fuz to have been from N3788, a 1938 machine.
I think you will agree that the identity of an aircraft relates to the fuselage so I am puzzled as to why PF wasn't painted in the earlier markings.
This does effectively give total authenticity to the yellow scheme.
Better to change it than to get the olive drab roller out and rip the spats off???
Just kidding.....
Anybody out there got any undercarriage parts for the Maggie?
Mine has had a PFA-approved mod to replace the original Airdraulic internals with rubber-blocks in suspension.
These are a little harsh on the poor old thing, resulting in a severe hammering when I displayed it at Woburn - rough strip or what??!!
Nice to fit the squidgy originals.
Falcon - Feb03 FlyPast is out now. An in-depth feature is planned in the Spring in Air Enthusiast. Lots of wonderful old piccies.
Wonderful to communicate with so many Miles enthusiasts.
Top of my wish-list is a Hawk.
For those who don't know it - imagine a Maggie but with Falcon trousered U/C and tailplane and a more slender fuz - voila and drop dead gorgeous.
Handling on the Maggie is a bit quirky and caught a few young pilots out in the war with often fatal consequences.
I have a copy of a document marked 'Secret' produced by the RAE at Farnborough in response to this problem.
In short, there is a marked pitch-down in the sideslip.
Solution? Don't sideslip it. The flaps are incredible. Another gotcha actually if you get it wrong but, thats another story...
Keep it coming! Wonderful!
HP
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Two of those Marathons escaped to Lasham where I noted them on 3 Nov 58 as G-AMHS (ex XJ830) and G- AMHV (XJ831), whilst VX229 (ex-RAE) was in a sorrier state. Have to add, as an aside, Bristol Buckmaster prototype TJ717 and Meteor EE531 in RAE's hangar.
Noted the aforementioned 'ITN in the Air Couriers' hangar at Croydon on 30 Dec 58, along with Flight's Gemini 'KHC, 'KDB (H.Hannan), 'JZO (Whitbread), the fuselage of 'LIO, and in Autair's hangar was Vendair's Gemini 'JWE. Hawk Trainer 'KAS sat outside, while Morton's held immortal Gemini 'MGF, plus a 3A 'MME.
Surrey's revealed a French Gemini F-BBSL.
It was my first, and last, visit to Croydon....choke!
Noted the aforementioned 'ITN in the Air Couriers' hangar at Croydon on 30 Dec 58, along with Flight's Gemini 'KHC, 'KDB (H.Hannan), 'JZO (Whitbread), the fuselage of 'LIO, and in Autair's hangar was Vendair's Gemini 'JWE. Hawk Trainer 'KAS sat outside, while Morton's held immortal Gemini 'MGF, plus a 3A 'MME.
Surrey's revealed a French Gemini F-BBSL.
It was my first, and last, visit to Croydon....choke!
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Aero hack,
I know you and the other youngsters here are winding me up but .....
We operated Marathons with Derby Aviation from Burnaston for quite a few years.
We pioneered air routes like Burnaston- Jersey, Cheltenham- Jersey and many others!
The main attraction of the Marathon was that it was single pilot operation. So always a seat for a free ride !!
We had Daks, and Marathons with Derby Aviation and they started naming the aircraft after Dales
The Daks were named Darley Dale, Derwent Dale etc
The Marathons were Millers Dale, Matlock Dale etc
When the last Marathon arrived ( ex WAAC Aircraft) while it was in the paint area some wag put Mrs Dale on it.
The Marathon like so many British aircraft had a spar life. When we reached this life we got an extension pending some tests by Miles designates ( Whever took over the design responsibilty)
We had one of th aircraft in the hangar on check, the boffins arrived and took a "coupon" from the spar web and departed.
The aircraft never flew again.
I'm afraid I can't remember what happened to the aircraft
Must be a senior moment
I know you and the other youngsters here are winding me up but .....
We operated Marathons with Derby Aviation from Burnaston for quite a few years.
We pioneered air routes like Burnaston- Jersey, Cheltenham- Jersey and many others!
The main attraction of the Marathon was that it was single pilot operation. So always a seat for a free ride !!
We had Daks, and Marathons with Derby Aviation and they started naming the aircraft after Dales
The Daks were named Darley Dale, Derwent Dale etc
The Marathons were Millers Dale, Matlock Dale etc
When the last Marathon arrived ( ex WAAC Aircraft) while it was in the paint area some wag put Mrs Dale on it.
The Marathon like so many British aircraft had a spar life. When we reached this life we got an extension pending some tests by Miles designates ( Whever took over the design responsibilty)
We had one of th aircraft in the hangar on check, the boffins arrived and took a "coupon" from the spar web and departed.
The aircraft never flew again.
I'm afraid I can't remember what happened to the aircraft
Must be a senior moment
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atb1943: The Lasham Meteor still survives, but whatever happened to the Buckmaster? I well remember peering through the cracks in the hangar doors to see them on several occasions in the late '50s/early 60s.
GotTheTshirt: Never saw the Derby Aviation Marathons, but my old and dear friend Dave Davies, aka Air Portraits, has a spectacular shot of one landing at Burnaston — I think he must have had to duck to avoid being hit.
Hairyplane: FlyPast has done you proud with the Falcon spread, but with the inimitable Ken Ellis at the helm I'd expect nothing less. BTW, the soon-to-arrive Hawk Major I mentioned in an earlier post is believed to have been used as a (very) light bomber in the Spanish Civil War. Many Miles types went to Spain, but I doubt there are any still undiscovered. It's my belief that South America is likely to be the best hunting ground now.
GotTheTshirt: Never saw the Derby Aviation Marathons, but my old and dear friend Dave Davies, aka Air Portraits, has a spectacular shot of one landing at Burnaston — I think he must have had to duck to avoid being hit.
Hairyplane: FlyPast has done you proud with the Falcon spread, but with the inimitable Ken Ellis at the helm I'd expect nothing less. BTW, the soon-to-arrive Hawk Major I mentioned in an earlier post is believed to have been used as a (very) light bomber in the Spanish Civil War. Many Miles types went to Spain, but I doubt there are any still undiscovered. It's my belief that South America is likely to be the best hunting ground now.
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Fascinating thread! I have felt for some time this particular forum has huge potential for the vintage aircraft scene.
I recall flying in the very late 60's with a Jack Reid(?) in his Gemini at Elstree in the hope of being able to build my multi hours cheaply. Loved flying it but after a teensy weensy groundloop on arrival at Elstree on the first landing he thought better of his offer! Any way it stood me in good stead in years to come for Rapides, Beech 18's and B17's! (Thinks: Must make effort to grovel my way into one again and see if I can get it right this time )
I was also lucky enough to be checked out by Peter Hoare on the Miles Student with the intention of displaying it the following season. Unfortunately the engine cooked after take-off a week later and Peter was lucky to escape the wreckage somewhat damaged but alive. The Student was very underpowered but great fun to fly - even with the screaming banshee above your head! I hope for a sympathetic restoration - if only it could be made to fly again <sigh>.
Best regards to all and a Happy and Safe New Year
I recall flying in the very late 60's with a Jack Reid(?) in his Gemini at Elstree in the hope of being able to build my multi hours cheaply. Loved flying it but after a teensy weensy groundloop on arrival at Elstree on the first landing he thought better of his offer! Any way it stood me in good stead in years to come for Rapides, Beech 18's and B17's! (Thinks: Must make effort to grovel my way into one again and see if I can get it right this time
)I was also lucky enough to be checked out by Peter Hoare on the Miles Student with the intention of displaying it the following season. Unfortunately the engine cooked after take-off a week later and Peter was lucky to escape the wreckage somewhat damaged but alive. The Student was very underpowered but great fun to fly - even with the screaming banshee above your head! I hope for a sympathetic restoration - if only it could be made to fly again <sigh>.
Best regards to all and a Happy and Safe New Year
Aerohack
Yes, could have been a Varsity since both types operated there at the same time, plus the real 'pig' - the Valetta nav trainer. At one time they also had a Wyvern in the hangar ... extraordinary machine!....... a bit like using a Pickford's transporter for house-to-house deliveries!
Lovely station, Thorney. Had a second stint there in the 60s on S&R ; very fond memories.
Yes, could have been a Varsity since both types operated there at the same time, plus the real 'pig' - the Valetta nav trainer. At one time they also had a Wyvern in the hangar ... extraordinary machine!....... a bit like using a Pickford's transporter for house-to-house deliveries!
Lovely station, Thorney. Had a second stint there in the 60s on S&R ; very fond memories.
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Messenger
Hi Speechless,
You haven't provided much info.
If you could find the reg. the history of the aircraft could indeed be dug out in detail.
Never mind, I'll speak to the Oracle - Peter Amos of The Miles Collection - (Call him yourself on 01903 893444 and cough up £17.50 to join!) and see what he has to say.
If I come up with anything - probably after Monday - I'll post it.
VBR
HP
You haven't provided much info.
If you could find the reg. the history of the aircraft could indeed be dug out in detail.
Never mind, I'll speak to the Oracle - Peter Amos of The Miles Collection - (Call him yourself on 01903 893444 and cough up £17.50 to join!) and see what he has to say.
If I come up with anything - probably after Monday - I'll post it.
VBR
HP
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To my horror I find a thread this interesting is devoid of illustration, so here we go... all taken at Old Warden bar the final one, taken at Sywell...
Magisters P6382 & V1075
Magister P6382
Falcon G-AEEG
Messenger G-AJWB
Above Maggies and Falcon again
Messenger G-AKIN
Magisters P6382 & V1075
Magister P6382
Falcon G-AEEG
Messenger G-AJWB
Above Maggies and Falcon again
Messenger G-AKIN
Last edited by DamienB; 4th Jan 2003 at 22:40.
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Marathons
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Speechless Two: The Christchurch Messenger was G-AKKG, whch was owned at the time by Ben Heron. 'KKG was orginally delivered to Switzerland, but returned after a few months and spent nine years with Shell Mex & BP as the mount of their legendary salesman Vivian Varcoe. It was to be seen at virtually every rally and air race, and regularly visited flying clubs in Varcoe's hands. Ben Heron bought it from Miles in 1958. It bore the name 'Air Rover' in the early 1960s. The prop loss incident to which you refer happened on 20 May 1962 at Portsmouth, and the ensuing forced landing removed one gear leg, but the two aboard were unhurt. 'KKG was sold to a new owner in 1965 and lived at Elstree. Sadly, it was destroyed by fire on 1 June 1968 after crashing during an attempted emergency landing at Partridge Green, West Sussex. Pilot Ron Gold died two days later from severe burns; pasenger Martin Burns was seriously injured, but lived.
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Speedbird48
It was indeed 'KKR at Jones's pad at Munstead. Date was 1.7.58. GOK how I knew there was something of note there at the time, and how I didn't get thrown out, but I did at least knock on the door to ask. The maid told me Mr. Jones was not in, but the 'windowy', new, hangar was visible, so I sauntered over to it. The operational area was newly seeded. 'KKR I noted was blue. I walked around the house, and found the Cessna ('PNJ) parked on the lawn. Try that today!
I further note that the same day Blackbushe entertained Marathon D-CSFA, and Lasham the yellow and green Buckmaster and 'very old' Meteor. Both were engineless. Aerohack, I was thin in those days, the crack you looked through I was able to slip through....!
A week later I went to play with the 26 Harvards dumped in a compound at Sandhurst.
It was indeed 'KKR at Jones's pad at Munstead. Date was 1.7.58. GOK how I knew there was something of note there at the time, and how I didn't get thrown out, but I did at least knock on the door to ask. The maid told me Mr. Jones was not in, but the 'windowy', new, hangar was visible, so I sauntered over to it. The operational area was newly seeded. 'KKR I noted was blue. I walked around the house, and found the Cessna ('PNJ) parked on the lawn. Try that today!
I further note that the same day Blackbushe entertained Marathon D-CSFA, and Lasham the yellow and green Buckmaster and 'very old' Meteor. Both were engineless. Aerohack, I was thin in those days, the crack you looked through I was able to slip through....!
A week later I went to play with the 26 Harvards dumped in a compound at Sandhurst.
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Interesting, nay!, fascinating thread.
One project on the boards is to build a 1/4 scale R/C Miles Monitor. I picked up an ex-library copy of Don L. Brown's "Miles a/c since 1925". 3-views of the M.33 are all that I've needed.
On that note, I would prefer the book went to a good home, where it would be better appreciated. I have no real use for it, other than s/thing of curio value.
Silly question, I wonder where might be any Miles' enthusiasts? Ohhhh, I dunno, s/one w/out Don Brown's excellent history on their shelf?
One project on the boards is to build a 1/4 scale R/C Miles Monitor. I picked up an ex-library copy of Don L. Brown's "Miles a/c since 1925". 3-views of the M.33 are all that I've needed.
On that note, I would prefer the book went to a good home, where it would be better appreciated. I have no real use for it, other than s/thing of curio value.
Silly question, I wonder where might be any Miles' enthusiasts? Ohhhh, I dunno, s/one w/out Don Brown's excellent history on their shelf?
Gnome de PPRuNe
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to echo ATB...
Damien, as ever, excellent pics... and Hairy thanks for your devotion to the species!
Now, about the Aerovan, according to British Civil Aircraft Volume III, if we start looking in the Irish Sea, off Blackpool... nah, dreams...
Damien, as ever, excellent pics... and Hairy thanks for your devotion to the species!
Now, about the Aerovan, according to British Civil Aircraft Volume III, if we start looking in the Irish Sea, off Blackpool... nah, dreams...
DamienB,
Would it be possible to put names to those excellent pix, just to cater for mugs like me who can't identify the a/c??? Please!!
When I was a lad, there were only a couple of Miles a/c around the G/A airfield (it WAS a field in the 50s!!!) I hung about. The ability to roam in and out of the hangars and sit in the a/c is unimaginable now!!!
Would it be possible to put names to those excellent pix, just to cater for mugs like me who can't identify the a/c??? Please!!
When I was a lad, there were only a couple of Miles a/c around the G/A airfield (it WAS a field in the 50s!!!) I hung about. The ability to roam in and out of the hangars and sit in the a/c is unimaginable now!!!
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Even the names in this thread like, Fred Dunkerly, Ron Paine, Percy Blamire, Peter Hoare, David Ogilvy are pure nostalgia.
I flew with all the above as a young apprentice who managed to scounge a ride any time one was going.
All true gentlemen of the air!
I worked on most of their aircraft and worked on the conversion from Gemini to Aries on Percy Blamires aircraft and also worked on Fred Dunkerleys Aries aircraft. All at Burnaston. We also did the maintenance for The Elstree Flying clubs Maggies that David Ogilvy ran.
Burnaston was an ex RAF training airfield during the war and after the war The Wolverhampton Flying Club moved in and became Derby Aviation.
The original RAF buildings were all there just as the RAF left them.
We utilised a few of these building but as a lad exploring the many other buildings was like aladdins cave. They were full of Maggie and Tiger Moth parts including Maggie wing spars, which were in great demand as a bad crosswind landing often ripped the gear off the front face of the spar.
A group of us got together under Tony Topps, and with Ron Paynes help we "found " enough parts to build most of a Maggie.
It took some time but we finished it and fllew it as G-ANWO.
Ahhh Miles
What about the Aerovan
I flew with all the above as a young apprentice who managed to scounge a ride any time one was going.
All true gentlemen of the air!
I worked on most of their aircraft and worked on the conversion from Gemini to Aries on Percy Blamires aircraft and also worked on Fred Dunkerleys Aries aircraft. All at Burnaston. We also did the maintenance for The Elstree Flying clubs Maggies that David Ogilvy ran.
Burnaston was an ex RAF training airfield during the war and after the war The Wolverhampton Flying Club moved in and became Derby Aviation.
The original RAF buildings were all there just as the RAF left them.
We utilised a few of these building but as a lad exploring the many other buildings was like aladdins cave. They were full of Maggie and Tiger Moth parts including Maggie wing spars, which were in great demand as a bad crosswind landing often ripped the gear off the front face of the spar.
A group of us got together under Tony Topps, and with Ron Paynes help we "found " enough parts to build most of a Maggie.
It took some time but we finished it and fllew it as G-ANWO.
Ahhh Miles
What about the Aerovan
