Lottery 'Commies' say NO to Vulcan

[FJJP]

Let's get a few facts straightened out.

The CAA IS behind the project. The CAA multi test pilot has been aboard and taxyed the mighty beast around Bruntingthorpe and is optimistic about the project.

Someone has to do the major and Marshalls volunteered at a very reasonable price (you can't expect a business to spend such large sums of money for no return).

BAE is giving the project 'manufacturer's support'.

David Walton has spent a great deal of his own money and time on the project.

All in all it has a lot going for it, but it depends on fundraising. The best comment so far on this thread is -

'-------- Mr Branson ??

(sorry - I meant Sir Richard)'

Now there is a man with vision and guts who could make it happen.

[Grob Driver]

As I said in an earlier post… The Lottery doesn’t have a problem in aiding the restoration of aircraft, so long as the restoration isn’t to an airworthy status. Don’t know why, but that’s the rules!

As for Sir Branson… Don’t think it’s going to happen. I’m sure that he’s have come forward by now if he was interested. Would be nice to read a comment on here from TVOC… hear what they have to say!

I’m still interested to know what the plans are for the aircraft given the failure of the lottery appeal.

Is it simply a case of sell it to the highest bidder, or are there more sustainable plans in place?

Personally, I think that Mr Walton should put his hand in his pocket, and find that last million!! Or, accept that it just wasn’t feasible, and be happy with being the proud owner of one of the world’s most famous aircraft.

[nomdeplume]

I'd love to see more public funds devoted to our aviation heritage, but there is a problem when the aircraft is privately owned.
The majority of warbird owners have restored warbirds either at their own expense or by finding investors who then become owners or part owners of a particular aircraft. eg Ray Hanna (Old Flying Machine Company) and Stephen Gray (Fighter Collection), Robs Lamplough and others. They own the aircraft and are entitled to the profit when it's sold.
If the restoration project is a public venture or a charity, I'm always happy to make a donation, but not to the pockets of a private owner.
The 'Save the Blenheim' project is a case in point. I always thought Graham Warner who owns the Blenheim had a nerve asking members of the public at Duxford airshows for donations. I doubt if many of those who gave realised they were giving money to a wealthy businessman's private project which when finished was worth a fortune.

[Blacksheep]

Flatus Veteranus,

While the electronics certainly gave the "Fairies" a load of trouble, on the aeroplane side we were plagued with system problems. Bag tanks leaked and needed replacements, fuel quantity indication system amplifiers packed in with monotonous regularity - does anyone still manufacture the vacuum tube valves that are used in them? PFCUs were notoriously unreliable and how about those terrible FireTec engine fire detection systems? I suppose there are plenty of old Post Office pattern relays lying around to keep the refuelling and fuel transfer systems working but think about all the obsolete seals and gaskets used all over the aircraft. How about serviceable windscreens for example? I know there are plenty of spare parts about on non-flying Vulcans but someone has to put them through test and inspection then recertify them for civil use. Not impossible by any means, but certainly very expensive. Meanwhile many seals and other parts have shelf lives and will need to be manufactured to order. Very expensive in small lots. The CAA could give approval for substitution but certification still costs lots of money. The project is possible from a simple engineering point of view but assuming the money is found to restore the aircraft to airworthiness, the cost of maintaining that airworthiness could never be supported by mere airshow appearances. I wish it weren't so, but thats what makes me think the scheme is financially unviable I'm afraid...

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Grimweasel]

Glad to see that the old bird still creates a vivid interest!!
The sad thing is that if the V never flies again then generations of kids are going to miss out on a true aviation spectacle!

Seeing the Vulcan tear off the runway into a near vertical climb while the engines turn Mildenhall into an earthquake zone has been one of my fondest childhood memories. I'd just love for todays kids to have the same sight and feeling.

Surely if we can have old warbirds still flying like Vampires and Hunters that come from the same era, then we must be able to get the Vulcan flying too?

Has anyone approached the richest, keenest aviator of them all? John Travolta has a keen interest in aircraft. Prehaps he would like to become a shareholder/owner/pilot?

Prehaps the 'Commies' thing was a bit OTT, but it fails me to see how some art projects such as a bin liner filled with air can achieve a grant for the artist and great British engineering can be so cruely denied?

The Daily Telegraph should follow their old story up and generate new interest. Even 130 MP's were quoted as saying it was a disgrace!! They must have the power to make things happen? If not then why are they in Westminster???

[rivetjoint]

Imagine if the lottery people gave lots of lottery player's money to get the Vulcan flying again, only for it to hit a geese formation on take off and bury itself in the runway overrun. Every lottery player in the land would be out in protest at their money being lost, not good publicity for el lotto corporationo.

[Training Risky]

IDEOLOGY

I wouldn't say the fine people at the lottery board were Communists. Communism was a fine idea of collectively using land and state resources for the common good. The idea of Communism was turned into the bogeyman by the USA's fear and hatred of the USSR, fear that was justified.
Stalin's oppressive regime of Totalitarianism/Facism was NOT Leon Trotsky's idea of Socialism/Communism in the true sense.

I know I may have wandered down tangent boulevard slightly, but the lottery board aren't Commies in the true sense.

They could be more accurately described as politically correct, liberal, lefty, shirtlifting, arty-farty, Islamic/asylum-seeker loving, conservative hating, Guardian-reading, HM Forces hating, despotic Bliarites, playing with OTHER people's money, and more concerned about funding terrorist support groups than Britains' military aviation heritage.mad:

B*gger the cost, invest the cash.


(Sorry, back to my padded cell...)

[steamchicken]

PPRunE - the new Mafia?

Did anyone else notice the wave of Vulcan/Lottery-related calls to Radio 5 this morning? Hmmm...never cross the PPRuNers!

[A Civilian]

Re TR

"Democracy. What For?"

As for the lottery board I thought they were all tory voting, fox hunting, oxford graduates who seem to fund nothing but eastend plays. Which are only ever frequented by tory voting, fox hunting....


I have to say that the Vulcan bomber isnt really one of the things that i would want to take my kid to see. It doesnt really have a broad appeal. Now if they would buy the ex RN light carrier that the indians are getting rid of, that would be cool.

[aytoo]

...heard a tale that the E-Bay storyline was just a wheeze to gain more publicity for the fund-raising efforts. If true, let's hope it has worked!

On a note of moderation - I know, I know, it will never catch on - while wholeheartedly condemning the Lotto for doling out vast sums of dosh to the aforementioned tree-hugging etc's, I wonder how the non-aviation (ie most of the rest of the country) fraternity would feel about the venerable Vulcan vs youth clubs/sport centres/parks and open spaces and all the 1001 other community projects which the lotto currently funds. It can't all be non-pink lesbian encounter group theatre workshops - can it?

Good luck to the TVOC - think I'll send them a tenner!

[Grob Driver]

Aytoo,

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head… The e-bay line was just another story to make us panic and give more money.

I personally think it’s time the TVOC started telling people what the situation is. They want people to help with donations etc…. fair enough, but come clean, tell us the plans, the situation, and what’s required. The web site doesn’t really tell us a lot does it. Fair enough that they need to recruit someone to fill a vacancy… And a wonderful press release about the new logo… But come on… Facts, facts, facts! That’s what people want… get them excited about the project, make then want to give a donation. At the minute it’s all a bit flat. Only my opinion, and I’m sure there will be lots of other views out there. I just think that they need a major change of image. What they are asking for is by no means beyond possibility, Resources and plans just have to be directed correctly.

[smartman]

GrobDriver

Couldn't agree more re-the web site - if that's the best that can be done to fire enthusiasm for the cause, then they quickly need a new PR/Marketing person -------------

[swinging monkey]

Lottery cash for Vulcan

Gentlemen,

I have read with considerable interest the comments made by many regarding the lack of lottery money for the Vulcan project. As someone who has spent many many hours in the back of these aircraft, I too am disappointed that the project has failed to attract lottery cash, however…….
What we all seem to be forgetting is that this aircraft is now owned by a member of the public, and we must therefore ask why should he get lottery money for his own gain? I am not convinced that he should! Why should he?
I accept that the aircraft is a valuable piece of ‘British Aviation heritage’ and all that, but so what? It now belongs to a civilian, and therefore NOT the country.
Of course I would much rarther see lottery cash go towards the Vulcan than say to asylum seekers, or all of the other naf ‘good causes’ but seriously gentlemen, why should our lottery money be given to private individual for his own gain?
I believe that the fault lies with the government (who else?) and maybe we should make a concerted effort to lobby MPs to establish a ‘real’ British Aviation heritage group, owned by the country for the country. Any takers?
My other concern is for all those thousands of people who, like myself, have sent in their £10 and other money, and are now faced with the prospect of the aircraft going to the States. Shameful on Mr Walton if it does. Is he going to refund us all our money? I remember the saga not that long ago, when someone did something along the same lines, and ‘run off’ with all the money!
I do need to respond to just a couple of individual points also…..
DamienB…... I have read Grob drivers comments and must inform you that he is much closer to the truth than you are!
Why do you poo poo him on one hand, and then make the comment about it being an easy decision to let the aircraft go to another country because it’s costing you wads of of cash, on the other? Seems a bit of a contradiction there old boy!
Your comments about the condition of the static Vulcans around the country is nothing short of utter rubbish. Take a look at Blackpool, Sunderland, East Midlands, Newark and Waddo’s even – good condition? – No Sir, take another look!
When Mr Walton purchased the aircraft in 1995, he said a great many things about what will happen to the aircraft, sadly none of them have come to fruition. More recently it was claimed the £1.5 million was needed. Now its £1.7 million, why? You are obviously ‘in the know’ Damien, so why not tell us exactly what is happening to the aircraft and to ‘our’ money
Lastly Damien, if all these rumours are so false, why not ask Mr Walton to go public about his intentions for the aircraft? Why not put an end to all these ‘silly rumours’ as you call them? I fear that the reason they are not dismissed is because there is a greater element of truth in them than you care to believe or accept.
Gentlemen, I have ranted long enough. The Vulcan was not an easy aircraft to fly, and I know FACT that 558 almost came to grief during its last season with the RAF on more than one occasion. I have a passionate desire to see this aircraft fly once again, and let millions of people experience what I was fortunate to have in the 70s and 80s, However, I am much more passionate about seeing it remain in one piece on the ground, and not in a million pieces in a hole in the ground.

Rant over, back to swinging!!
Regards to all
Swinging Monkey
More rope Caruthers!

[newswatcher]

Swinging Monkey says - "...we should make a concerted effort to lobby MPs to establish a ‘real’ British Aviation heritage group, owned by the country for the country"

Isn't that the RAF?

[Grob Driver]

Well newswatcher, I think it’s time you started watching a bit more news to try and establish what the role of the RAF is! I accept that it may have a bit of out dated equipment, but it’s certainly no Aviation heritage group. It’s a fighting force (and a whole load more). I think that the swinging monkey has a very valid point, both in his views about the Vulcan, and in the formation of a heritage group. I’m with you monkey man…. With you all the way!

[rivetjoint]

Grob Driver, I totally agree with you that the RAF is a fighting force not a heritage group HOWEVER the BBMF is still part of the RAF. Maybe its the reasoning behind backing the Flight which needs to addressed rather than assuming the RAF can't play a part in getting the Vulcan to fly again.

[newswatcher]

You can guarantee that someone will fall for it. Thanks Grob Driver for restoring my faith! As another thread stresses, the word is "banter"!!

But seriously, with this year being 50 years since the Vulcan first flew, it is a concern that the RAF are still forced to rely on aircraft of a type which first flew at around this time - Canberra(1949), Nimrod(1949- well Comet anyway!), Hercules(1954), plus Harrier(1967), and Jaguar(1969).

Apart from the C-17A Globemaster, there is not a "front-line" aircraft, of a type which did not fly first more than 20 years ago.

There seems little interest in keeping some of the "less interesting" aircraft which used to be in RAF service. How many of the following are left in working order - Valetta, Hastings, Hermes, or Britannia?

[Grob Driver]

A bit of banter… it’s my pleasure! Always one to take up the offer. Like fishing isn’t it… just cast out and see what takes the bait! Newswatcher....Looks like you just caught yourself a grob driver!

[swinging monkey]

Vulcan lottery money

Newswatcher,
With the help of hindsight, I think that your comment about the RAF being a heritage group may well have some mileage to it! On aserious note, I have been the blunt end of defence cuts year-in and year-out. It is no fun believe me, especially when we cannot even get flying kit from stores! I kid you not!
With no money for front-line chaps like me, it is little wonder that there is not a hope-in-hell of getting any money and/or support for the Delta Lady, irrespective of who owns her.
Thanks for your support Grob Driver, its good to know that someone else ses my point. I like your comment about fishing - well done!
Damien seems to have gone 'deep & silent' don't you think chaps?
Damien....are you out there?? come on old bean, fill us in on the latest on 558.
Regards to all

Swinging Monkey
left & right, front & back

[DamienB]

Why do you poo poo him on one hand, and then make the comment about it being an easy decision to let the aircraft go to another country because it’s costing you wads of of cash, on the other? Seems a bit of a contradiction there old boy!

Everybody here wants the Vulcan to fly, you would agree? So if it's a choice between it sitting on the ground doing nothing because nobody in the UK will stump up the required cash, or letting it go overseas where it could fly - that's what I call an easy decision - particularly if by sitting doing nothing it's costing the owner hundreds of thousands a pounds a year in lost income from using the hangar as storage.

The only flying Buccaneers and Lightnings are flying overseas. Would you rather they were still here in the UK and limited to fast taxi runs?

I was responding to comments alleging that 558's owner was simply out to make a fast buck. Well if that's the case why has he bankrolled so much of the project to this point out of his own pocket, and why has he spent almost a decade trying to get her back in the air? Vulcans don't increase in value the more they sit there - this isn't a bloody flat in London we're talking about!

Your comments about the condition of the static Vulcans around the country is nothing short of utter rubbish. Take a look at Blackpool, Sunderland, East Midlands, Newark and Waddo’s even – good condition? – No Sir, take another look!

As I said, only the one at Blackpool is in really poor condition - it has no hope whatsoever. The remainder are suffering, I never said they aren't - but the situation is nowhere near as grim as you seem to think. Sunderland's one was under active restoration until last year when the force behind that restoration moved away from the area. Newark's was looking tatty but sound when I last visited. Waddo's example is just a Vulcan shaped bit of tin, so much has been stripped out of it, but unless something has radically changed in the last few months - or I was lied to about its structural condition - it isn't about to fall to bits. If it was in such poor nick how come so many bits from it turned out to be so useful on other Vulcans? Most of the ones you mention have considerable areas of deterioration - I doubt a single Vulcan doesn't, including the four taxiable ones. However unless they're genuinely abandoned to their fate, looking at an airframe at any particular time can hardly indicate it's future. If you'd looked at XM655 at Wellesbourne ten years ago you'd have been convinced it was due a visit from the scrap man - corrosion all over the place, cockpit trashed, wingtips damaged, flat tires, paint all faded... and how look at her - www.xm655.co.uk (feel free to pop up to Wellesbourne and have a chat with the guys and see how far the airframe has come in the last 5 years).

When Mr Walton purchased the aircraft in 1995, he said a great many things about what will happen to the aircraft, sadly none of them have come to fruition. More recently it was claimed the £1.5 million was needed. Now its £1.7 million, why? You are obviously ‘in the know’ Damien, so why not tell us exactly what is happening to the aircraft and to ‘our’ money

I am not David Walton. If you have genuine questions to ask, phone him and ask. I realise you probably prefer second-hand, or third-hand, or fortieth-hand information, but it's soooo much more interesting to talk to the chap himself.

Lastly Damien, if all these rumours are so false, why not ask Mr Walton to go public about his intentions for the aircraft? Why not put an end to all these ‘silly rumours’ as you call them? I fear that the reason they are not dismissed is because there is a greater element of truth in them than you care to believe or accept.

David's intentions for the aircraft are quite clearly stated on the TVOC web site: www.tvoc.co.uk

Would you really have the poor chap stand up from time to time to deny each and every ever-more-silly rumour that is heard about the project and dignify such nonsense with a response? You want him to deny the USN are going to use the Vulcan to fly over water at wave top height to investigate ground effect flying? You want him to deny that Coca Cola are going to paint the aircraft red and white in their logo and fly it over sporting events? You want him to deny that the RAF want to use her for high altitude recon based out of Boscombe Down? They get ever more ludicrous, but always - but always - they've come from 'someone in the know'. Don't all rumours?

Still, I congratulate you on joining the British tradition of mudslinging and shouting down those who have actually tried to get something done. I'm sure David and TVOC are delighted with the level of 'support' being shown here.

Edit to add a PS - I fully agree expecting the HLF to provide money to a private company seems on the face of it to be a bit strange, but that does not appear to be one of the reasons they stated in their rejection. The HLF do after all give money to many other private companies and charities, and the VRT - a charity - did much of the front work for the application if I recall correctly. I like the idea about placing the aircraft in some sort of public trust; I'd also like to see TVOC be a little more open in their communications with everybody, but unlike some here I understand that a lot of deals are very delicate, and you do need a bit of secrecy to get things done sometimes.