Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Misc. Forums > Aviation History and Nostalgia
Reload this Page >

Comet 4 and Caravelle - common pilot type rating ?

Aviation History and Nostalgia Whether working in aviation, retired, wannabee or just plain fascinated this forum welcomes all with a love of flight.

Comet 4 and Caravelle - common pilot type rating ?

Old 2nd Oct 2020, 05:05
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LEEDS
Posts: 904
Comet 4 and Caravelle - common pilot type rating ?

Obviously this question is purely academic but would a common type rating have been probable, if not impossible? My basic point of view regards the Caravelle as essentially a twin-engine, short-body Comet with the same fuselage cross-section and, most importantly, a virtually identical cockpit. At the very least a pilot would need to have to undertaken a differences course, bearing in mind the different number of engines, engine mounting and tail designs giving differing handling characteristics.

Disclaimer: I am not a pilot and I don't design cockpits or whole aeroplanes so I'd particularly welcome more professional observations than I can provide! Thankyou.

Last edited by Mooncrest; 2nd Oct 2020 at 05:19.
Mooncrest is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 06:36
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 12,173
Highly improbable, I'd have said.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 07:07
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: near an airplane
Posts: 1,715
Nigh impossible. Apart from the different systems, different engines and different flying characteristics, it would also need a level of cooperation between UK and French authorities that was not there (yet). Also, keep in mind that it was the front fuselage that was similar, so structure and glazing, not the insides.
Jhieminga is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 08:35
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 55
Posts: 2,858
My understanding is that the co-operation was there, the stub wing for the BAC 1-11 engines came from Sud-Aviation. I was told it was the same design as the Caravelle.
TURIN is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 08:58
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: near an airplane
Posts: 1,715
That's co-operation between two manufacturers, which is also what led to the similarity between the front end of the Caravelle and the Comet. What I meant was co-operation between the certifying authorities of the UK and France, as you would need the French CAA signing off on a type rating for an aircraft that had not been type certificated by them, and may not have been flown by them. Vice versa for the UK providing a Caravelle rating on a UK licence based on a Comet rating. It's an interesting idea, but from a flight characteristics and cockpit layout perspective, as well as from a legal perspective, it was not possible in those days.
Jhieminga is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 09:05
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LEEDS
Posts: 904
I'm inclined to agree. Although the 757 and 767 have different systems their cockpits are virtually identical and are the same design of aircraft, albeit different fuselage widths. Plus they have the advantage of coming from the same manufacturer and a significant customer base for both types, two things that didn't apply to either the Comet or Caravelle.
Mooncrest is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 09:14
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Age: 76
Posts: 416
What would be the point. Did any airline fly both Comets and Caravelles?
RetiredBA/BY is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 09:27
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LEEDS
Posts: 904
Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
What would be the point. Did any airline fly both Comets and Caravelles?
Not that I'm aware of. As I said in my opening post, it's purely academic anyway and I only asked on the basis of similar cockpits. Today, it might be a different story.
Mooncrest is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 09:44
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 428
Let's just accept that "common type ratings" were pretty well unknown to manufacturers such as de Havilland and Sud Aviation which were breaking new ground with their jet-propelled airliners. Sud's use of the Comet nose must have been a shortcut to save "re-inventing the wheel" and, as pointed out above, was structure and glazing but not contents.
Allan Lupton is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 11:55
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 4,606
Air France flew Comets and Caravelles?
Kiltrash is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 13:45
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 332
AF didn't fly the Comet but one of the saddest sights ! remember seeing in the old Rhodes airport (the one surrounded by hills) was an old AF poster showing a Comet in AF colours.

Alas - what might have been!
scotbill is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 14:42
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Maidenhead, UK
Posts: 9
Air France did fly the Comet - Comet 1 between 26th August 1953 and 12th January 1954, but they didn't fly the Comet 4
fltplanner is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 15:45
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 155
OK so how did Boeing get away with it for the 757/767?
WB627 is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 15:52
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Dorset UK
Age: 67
Posts: 1,140
Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
OK so how did Boeing get away with it for the 757/767?
'cos they designed them that way from the start.
Someone told me the best way to tell them apart from the inside was to look at the step into the flight deck. IIRC step down in a 757 and step up in a 767.
dixi188 is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 16:12
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 63
Posts: 166
No airlines it seems, except MEA & AEROLINEAS ARGENTINAS flew both Comets and Caravelles at the same time in the 1960s'.

Air France had Comet 1's in service, along with UAT (TAI/UTA) until the grounding in 1954.
They then both operated new Caravelles when first introduced about 5 or so years later.

The Caravelle cockpit and RR Avon engines were part of the Comet 4 legacy.


Old RHO airport was Maritsa behind the hills....

rog747 is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 16:13
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 249
Originally Posted by dixi188 View Post
'cos they designed them that way from the start.
Someone told me the best way to tell them apart from the inside was to look at the step into the flight deck. IIRC step down in a 757 and step up in a 767.
Yep thats right.
Only when you sat down did the suble differences become apparant. ( different flap settings and fuel dump on the 76 IIRC)
Ivan aromer is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 16:22
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Age: 76
Posts: 416
Originally Posted by dixi188 View Post
'cos they designed them that way from the start.
Someone told me the best way to tell them apart from the inside was to look at the step into the flight deck. IIRC step down in a 757 and step up in a 767.
Correct! If I recall there was only about two switches different between the 5 and the 6 but operating procedures were virtually identical Except flare height. After the 50 feet call wait 2 seconds before starting to flare the 76 and three second for a 75 !

That said the bogie angle on the 76 was opposite the 75 which was a doddle to land smoothly, on the 76 you took what you got !


Both quite brilliant aircraft, delightful to fly and operate, but never did manage to fly a 76 and 75 on the same day!

Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 2nd Oct 2020 at 17:48.
RetiredBA/BY is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 20:50
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Stockport MAN/EGCC
Age: 66
Posts: 912
Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
What would be the point. Did any airline fly both Comets and Caravelles?
MEA certainly did
David
The AvgasDinosaur is offline  
Old 3rd Oct 2020, 02:00
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Never You Mind
Posts: 82
I am fairly sure the Comet and Caravelle cockpit (that is the physical structure) were exactly the same. As for a common type rating... back then no chance but if they were flying today, probably. Look at the 330/350, they have some similarities but they are not anything like the same aircraft but a DIY quick course and some regulatory smoke and mirrors you can fly both under a common type rating.
Mill Worker is offline  
Old 3rd Oct 2020, 11:30
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Derbyshire
Age: 68
Posts: 257
I'm absolutely certain that I've read somewhere that the Comet nose design was licenced by Sud-Aviation from de Havilland for the Caravelle so I would expect it to be identical. I've always assumed it was external, and presumably structure, rather than anything more.
DHfan is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.