Comet 4 and Caravelle - common pilot type rating ?

[kenparry]

TL: Avons in the later Comets (Ghosts early on); Avons in the early Caravelles. The later ones had the P & W JT8D.

[Jhieminga]

I had to dig up these photos but here is a comparison of the insides:

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY

What would be the point. Did any airline fly both Comets and Caravelles?

A good number. But in those times, being qualified on two types was not uncommon.

Originally Posted by DHfan

I'm absolutely certain that I've read somewhere that the Comet nose design was licenced by Sud-Aviation from de Havilland for the Caravelle so I would expect it to be identical. I've always assumed it was external, and presumably structure, rather than anything more.

More than that, the nose/front end was actually designed by De Havilland at Hatfield, and for the first few Caravelles was actually built there and shipped over.

With the De Havilland nose/flight deck, Rolls-Royce engines, and a string of systems subassemblies from the UK, who in the 1950s were second only to the USA for aerospace sourcing, the Caravelle had a lot of UK value in it.

[thegypsy]

I used to fly the B707 and B737 albeit on different days in the late 70's as an F/O and later as Captain both B757/B767 as did lots of my colleagues.

Shortest flight on B707 was Kuwait to Abadan or Bahrain to Dharhan

[Carlos Arganaraz]

Originally Posted by Mooncrest

Not that I'm aware of. As I said in my opening post, it's purely academic anyway and I only asked on the basis of similar cockpits. Today, it might be a different story.

Yes, Aerolíneas Argentinas.

[WHBM]

The scurrilous rumour is of course that De Havilland cut the noses off the pioneer Comet 1s awaiting breaking up after their withdrawal, and sent them over to Sud !

[DHfan]

The Comet 4 at Duxford is one of the two that took part in the simultaneous W-E and E-W flights. Not that it's important, but I can never remember which one.
For some years it remained in Dan-Air colours, as they'd presented it to Duxford, but as a historic aircraft in its' own right, I think it's justified that it's now preserved in BOAC colours.

[oldpax]

Seating arrangement.

I remember boarding an Air Inter Caravelle at Marseille and found my seat facing the rear and the seats in front of me facing forward! Maybe for the escape hatch?

[bean]

Originally Posted by DHfan

The Comet 4 at Duxford is one of the two that took part in the simultaneous W-E and E-W flights. Not that it's important, but I can never remember which one.
For some years it remained in Dan-Air colours, as they'd presented it to Duxford, but as a historic aircraft in its' own right, I think it's justified that it's now preserved in BOAC colours.

It was the west to east one

[VeeEffAre]

Biggest challenge to a common type rating was surely that the Comet was 3 crew flight deck, while Caravelle was pilot and co-pilot only. Also, Comet worked up to RR Avons (from DH Ghost). Caravelle started with RR Avon and moved on to P&W...

[WHBM]

Caravelle was 3-crew. Flight engineer sat behind the co-pilot, panel on sidewall, same as Comet. Systems were not automated enough then to dispense with them.

[spekesoftly]

Out of curiosity, has there ever been a common pilot type rating that covered both a two and four engined jet aircraft?

[Jhieminga]

A330/A340 was not a common type rating IIRC but one could be acquired based on the other by going through a differences course only.

[WHBM]

Sterling of Denmark used Caravelles on Transatlantic charters (yes, Copenhagen to San Francisco etc, with multiple stops) from the late 1960s. Given the navigation technology of the time, they must surely have needed a navigator, making a 4-crew setup.

UTA used them in the South Pacific on similar lengthy overwater runs, such as Tahiti to Noumea, presumably the same applied.

[DHfan]

My knowledge of airliners is extremely limited, and even that's probably generous, but I'm surprised that overwater flights of those sorts of distances were allowed with only two engines in those days.

[WHBM]

It was only the FAA, and thus US-reg aircraft, that had statutory limitations (60 minutes single engine speed) on 2-engine overwater flights prior to ETOPS etc. Sterling were the first, and for a long time only, user of Caravelles across the Atlantic, refuelling at Keflavik and Gander (and, if going to San Francisco, refuelling in of all places Omaha in Nebraska); they also ran them extensively from Copenhagen to Thailand, but that doesn't have so much overwater apart from across the Bay of Bengal. I think they also did holiday flights to Natal in Brasil, refuelling in The Canaries.

Some detail :

https://www.airliners.net/forum/view...42559#p5942923

[Jhieminga]

Originally Posted by DHfan

My knowledge of airliners is extremely limited, and even that's probably generous, but I'm surprised that overwater flights of those sorts of distances were allowed with only two engines in those days.

The piston twins were the ones that needed to be kept close to land in case of engine problems. Even though they had only two engines, the early jet engines were still a big step up in reliability, so a Caravelle could easily fly longer overwater sectors. Out of 64 hull-loss accidents, 27 incurred fatalities and of those, only three accidents were due to an engine problem, either ascertained or suspected.
See: https://aviation-safety.net/database...ravelle/losses

[rog747]

Yes Sterling AW flew their 109 seat Super Caravelles, and the newer larger 131-140 seat 12's all over the place basically Worldwide.
Colombo Goa India Maldives HKG and Bangkok
USA & Canada
Aswan Abu Simbel Mombasa
Brazil

Sadly their 2 fatal Super Caravelle accidents both occurred on the way home from excotic holidays - One, CFIT, was lost on let down in poor Wx to Dubai, and the other during take off at Teheran when a failure of the right main landing gear occurred.

[WHBM]

We did a considerable Caravelle thread a few years ago here, for those interested

UK Caravelle?

[rog747]

1960
Harry Chandler of The Travel Club of Upminster claimed the first Jet holiday charter from the UK, operating an Air France Caravelle weekly charter London Airport to Basel –
The firm still carried the slogan, Jet to the Sun! until their demise.

Basel was convenient for Lakes & Mountains, plus to connect with his European Coach Tours start point.
As it was so popular, more Air France Caravelles from London Airport to Corsica and Nice were also chartered by the Travel Club Upminster.
Harry Chandler had seen that AF had available aircraft at Weekends (which were generally quiet days for AF back then) and thus managed to obtain rock bottom seat prices for the weekly or fortnightly charter series.
I believe the aircraft were sitting at LAP anyway.

This beat the Comet (and the 1-11) by many years in flying UK package holiday makers abroad by charter Jet, although BEA Comets were flying scheduled flights to some sun spots, it was the BEA Vanguard that tended to do most of those runs, both scheduled and charter.

British United 1965, and British Eagle in 1966, were first with the BAC 1-11 on IT charters, and then Dan Air with their first 2 Comets from 1966.



1960's advert