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Dam Buster Training & Raid Routes

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Dam Buster Training & Raid Routes

Old 8th Aug 2016, 06:44
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Dam Buster Training & Raid Routes

Hi, Does anyone have details of the training routes used by 617 Squadron in the low-level pre-raid training in the UK?. I'd like to plot them using Google Earth to make Google "Tours" and also to create Flight Plans for use in Microsoft FS X.

Also if anyone has access to the Appendices in the Operation Order No.B976 which detail the planned inbound and outbound routes of the actual raid... I have already plotted those using the best info I can find - Helmuth Euler's books, but they're certainly not as precise as I'm sure was given to the Navigators, or on the charts they used for map-reading at the time.

Have any of these actual used strip-charts survived in Official Archives or Museums?
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 09:25
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Have you tried "Just Flight's" Dambusters Sim add-on? It includes flyable routes, aircraft, weapons, and incoming flak.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 09:58
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Watched the film yesterday.
Did some reading afterwards - interesting to learn that the effect of the raids only lasted a few months - with Ruhr industrial production almost fully restored by that point.
Which is not in any way to undermine the bravery of the men from 617.
Or Barnes Wallis' extraordinary persistence in the face of sceptics.
Great movie... especially Nigger... oops.
Poor pooch.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 10:05
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https://dambustersblog.com/2011/09/2...n-re-creation/

hth
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 19:17
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'Cept his name wasn't Nigger....it was changed for the film from....errr C..t so I am told
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 19:36
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*ahem* GAZSD

Anyway, an interesting bit of Nav history.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 23:52
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Thanks to all replies so far.I have seen all of the above, but am looking for much more detail on the routings. So far, Euler's books, and the ref above at https://dambustersblog.com/2011/09/2...n-re-creation/ have given most detail. I'm trying to follow up on the latter to get a copy of the actual plan he used. I know pretty well where the turning points were, but the implications of the above link are that there were very specific objects at the TPs. Many are obvious - coastal features, canal junctions, river bends, etc. It looks as though wherever possible they selected water features as showing best in moonlight, whilst trying to avoid known airfields, flak spots etc. Still hoping for more... Flying FS X at night by moonlight on the date and time is challenging. I'm still talking to Forum techies about how to remove all ground lighting - towns, roads etc, as there would have been blackout condits on the ground. Terrain flat most of the way, but after the final turn to the Mo(e)hne it's much tougher trying to terrain-hug with a sluggish a/c and not much vis ahead.
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Old 9th Aug 2016, 23:24
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I was talking to someone recently who actually served at Scampton during the war. They told me they could show me where nigger is actually buried. Apparently there's a memorial thing for tourists. It's not where he actually is though.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 10:56
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The new “The Dambusters” is taking a long time to get airborne as BBC reported way back in 2011
The Dam Busters’ dog will be renamed for a new version of the classic war movie, it has emerged.
Stephen Fry, who is writing the film’s screenplay, said there was “no question in America that you could ever have a dog called the N-word”.
In the remake, the dog will be called “Digger” instead of “Nigger”.
The black Labrador was the mascot for RAF 617 squadron, which during World War II destroyed dams in Germany with Barnes Wallis’s famous bouncing bomb.
Owned by the squadron’s wing commander, Guy Gibson, the animal was run over and killed during the planning of the Dambuster raids, and was buried at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire - from where the operation was launched.
Fry told BBC Radio 5 live: “It’s no good saying that it is the Latin word for black or that it didn’t have the meaning that it does now - you just can’t go back, which is unfortunate.
“You can go to RAF Scampton and see the dog’s grave and there he is with his name, and it’s an important part of the film.
“The name of the dog was a code word to show that the dam had been successfully breached.
“In the film, you’re constantly hearing ‘N-word, N-word, N-word, hurray’ and Barnes Wallis is punching the air. But obviously that’s not going to happen now.
“So Digger seems OK, I reckon.”
Phil Bonner, from Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire, said: “I think for the Second World War generation that word was acceptable.
“But with my daughters growing up in Lincolnshire, they have been taught that the word is unacceptable now.
“The film is not about the dog. My big concern would be if they watered down what the Dam Busters had achieved.”
The 1955 film, which starred Sir Michael Redgrave and Richard Todd, told the story of Barnes Wallis’ struggle to develop the bomb and the subsequent raids on Nazi Germany - codenamed Operation Chastise.
The remake is being produced by Lord of the Rings director Peter Jackson.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 11:34
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New report today...
I know, it's the Daily Mail...

Oscar-winning director Peter Jackson is set to reveal the secret history of the iconic Dambusters raid in a film remake after purchasing the rights to previously declassified information.The new movie will include details that had previously not been featured, as they had been protected by the Official Secrets Act.The original 1955 film, starring Richard Todd and Michael Redgrave, told of the Operation Chastise which set out to destroy three dams deep within Germany's Ruhr valley in order to set back the Nazi's war effort, a task that was thought near impossible.However Mr Jackson has now said the movie was a 'romanticised' portrayal and skipped out on vital details due to the secrecy act that was in place.He has now confirmed his plans for a remake after trying to get the project off the ground for almost ten years.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 19:49
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Originally Posted by kghjfg View Post
I was talking to someone recently who actually served at Scampton during the war. They told me they could show me where nigger is actually buried. Apparently there's a memorial thing for tourists. It's not where he actually is though.
Difficult to believe. I served at/ visited Scampton on and off through the 1970s and 1980s and the grave was there throughout. Not a lot of tourists in those days, and a great deal of security,
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 20:27
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They told me they could show me where nigger is actually buried. Apparently there's a memorial thing for tourists. It's not where he actually is though.


As Trump would say - fake news.

Nigger's grave is outside one of the hangars. It used to be a secondary duty of the most junior officer at Scampton to tend the grave. There are several images available.

An emotive picture:

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Old 29th Nov 2018, 21:58
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Originally Posted by dook View Post
Nigger's grave is outside one of the hangars. It used to be a secondary duty of the most junior officer at Scampton to tend the grave. There are several images available.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 22:07
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For some reason I found it quite emotional to stand outside the railings surrounding it.

There were no tourists then.

The dog was nothing special, but at the same time very special.

Per Ardua…...
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 22:42
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I can only hope that the next film of the raid never gets made. It was what it was and Britain does not need to look back any more. They did great things and they got the praise they deserved. Another film is just a way to make money.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 23:16
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During my time on 617 Sqn it was the duty of the squadron's junior crew to tend Nigger's grave, which was located just in front of the squadron's offices. So, typically, you did it for about a month. It was the accepted wisdom, however, that he was actually buried somewhere behind the airmen's mess.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 23:35
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Originally Posted by PAXboy View Post
I can only hope that the next film of the raid never gets made. It was what it was and Britain does not need to look back any more. They did great things and they got the praise they deserved.
Hmmm.

Another way of looking at it is that it was a daring and ingenious raid about which, we now learn, there are many things that were not in the public domain at the time the original film was made, but now are.

Another film is just a way to make money.
Films only make money if they tell a story that's worth telling.
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 00:25
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My concern is that the film will draw people for the reason of 'good old battling britain blah blah'. If there are new facts - make a documentary.
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 15:18
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Originally Posted by PAXboy View Post
My concern is that the film will draw people for the reason of 'good old battling britain blah blah'. If there are new facts - make a documentary.
An interesting pov. Would there be enough money in a pure documentary to do the subject justice?

They shall not grow only wasn't made as a big feature film but has certainly been well received. The difference between that film and a DB documentary is the lack of sufficient contemporary film.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 04:20
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The late 'Mr Grubby' and I were air traffic assistants together at West Drayton in the early '70s. Before joining NATCS, he had worked as a civilian employee at Scampton as a sort of general factotum and one of his jobs was keeping the area around Nigger's grave in good condition.
If you can find a copy of his autobiography (limited edtion - only about 12 printed at his own expense) he goes into further detail.
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