Important British Aircraft
As a schoolboy, I remember the Fairey Delta 2 winning the World Speed Recordin 1956, raising it to 1,132 mph.
Other British aircraft meriting a mention would be
The Whispering Giant - Bristol Britannia.
Blackburn Beverley - Giant heavy transport.
Other British aircraft meriting a mention would be
The Whispering Giant - Bristol Britannia.
Blackburn Beverley - Giant heavy transport.
Trident 3 wing cracks...
The big boss was once asked about cross wing landing techniques...which one did he recommend of the two....reply was fly it into the runway ...the undercarriage is strong enough....what was christened "Charlie's tent peg landing technique"...IMHO...there lies the problem
Autothrottle....BEA had this strange idea that the flying pilot shouldn't operate his own throttles and that Auto-throttle must be used when available (except eng out)....after I left and some "notable aviators" had retired the procedure was changed.
There is one gentleman who has operated the Vanguard, VC10 and concorde as well as doing a few circuits in a T1...he told me that the crew were amazed that he could handle his own throttles.
Concorde...BOAC had to get exemption from the CAA to operate out of JFK as the procedure called for a turn below 500ft which was forbidden. The rule was apparently introduced by Dai Davies who didn't cope very well with a departure procedure with an early turn on the Trident sim.
The Super VC 10 was a beautiful aircraft...go to Duxford and have a look into the cockpit (there is a Trident and a Concorde there to)...gigantic and with our own loo although it wasn't always available as on one trip someone bought a large cane swinging chair in Bangkok as Sylvia Crystal played in in the first Emmanuelle Film...happy memories (for the youngsters amongst you the first soft porn film in 1976).
I was lucky enough to fly both the Trident two and the Super VC 10...Both were great aircraft but it was the operation of the former that let it down...but one has to remember that the RAF was killing 100s of aircrew at that time and it took a brave man or a fool to open his mouth to say things were wrong in the 70s...sadly we stalled three gas turbine powered airliners..
The big boss was once asked about cross wing landing techniques...which one did he recommend of the two....reply was fly it into the runway ...the undercarriage is strong enough....what was christened "Charlie's tent peg landing technique"...IMHO...there lies the problem
Autothrottle....BEA had this strange idea that the flying pilot shouldn't operate his own throttles and that Auto-throttle must be used when available (except eng out)....after I left and some "notable aviators" had retired the procedure was changed.
There is one gentleman who has operated the Vanguard, VC10 and concorde as well as doing a few circuits in a T1...he told me that the crew were amazed that he could handle his own throttles.
Concorde...BOAC had to get exemption from the CAA to operate out of JFK as the procedure called for a turn below 500ft which was forbidden. The rule was apparently introduced by Dai Davies who didn't cope very well with a departure procedure with an early turn on the Trident sim.
The Super VC 10 was a beautiful aircraft...go to Duxford and have a look into the cockpit (there is a Trident and a Concorde there to)...gigantic and with our own loo although it wasn't always available as on one trip someone bought a large cane swinging chair in Bangkok as Sylvia Crystal played in in the first Emmanuelle Film...happy memories (for the youngsters amongst you the first soft porn film in 1976).
I was lucky enough to fly both the Trident two and the Super VC 10...Both were great aircraft but it was the operation of the former that let it down...but one has to remember that the RAF was killing 100s of aircrew at that time and it took a brave man or a fool to open his mouth to say things were wrong in the 70s...sadly we stalled three gas turbine powered airliners..
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The Super VC 10 was a beautiful aircraft...go to Duxford and have a look into the cockpit (there is a Trident and a Concorde there to)...
Also a BAC 1-11 (G-ASYD), a Viscount (G-APIM), a Vanguard/Merchantman (G-APEP), and a Concorde (G-BBDG). Plus a lot more toys for big and small boys and girls!
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I was really impressed when I entered the Vanguard flight deck at Brooklands. The centre console sprouts no less than twelve big levers! I was a tad disappointed to learn from the ex-guardsvan driver who was acting as guide that 4 are power levers for the P1, 4 are power levers for the P2, and the middle 4 are fuel cocks!
blind pew
I think you will find that the recommendation re turns after take-off had more to do with spiral stability than D P Davies' ability to fly an aircraft. I flew with him several times and, whereas navigation was not always his strong point, his aircraft handling was superb.
I think you will find that the recommendation re turns after take-off had more to do with spiral stability than D P Davies' ability to fly an aircraft. I flew with him several times and, whereas navigation was not always his strong point, his aircraft handling was superb.
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Surely all aeroplanes except free-flight models are spirally unstable? It's no bar to an immediate turn as soon as the wheels are off the ground, though.
However I have heard that the original 707s could either climb or turn, but not both at the same time. But that was down to marginal thrust over drag.
However I have heard that the original 707s could either climb or turn, but not both at the same time. But that was down to marginal thrust over drag.
SSD
Certainly most aircraft of that era were just on the positive side of neutral spiral stability. The problem DPD was concerned about was when taking off before neutral rudder trim was fully established, in which case the aircraft could be spirally stable in one direction and spirally unstable in the other. No problem, provided the pilots monitored the attitude and flight path carefully (as they should) but which could lead to an unwanted deviation if attention was distracted elsewhere.
Perhaps John Farley might like to comment.
Certainly most aircraft of that era were just on the positive side of neutral spiral stability. The problem DPD was concerned about was when taking off before neutral rudder trim was fully established, in which case the aircraft could be spirally stable in one direction and spirally unstable in the other. No problem, provided the pilots monitored the attitude and flight path carefully (as they should) but which could lead to an unwanted deviation if attention was distracted elsewhere.
Perhaps John Farley might like to comment.
Bergerie the quote about Dai Davis came recently from one of your management mates...you probably can guess whom..."whilst he was an excellent test pilot...he had troubles coping with the BEA departure procedures."
The only other snippet I have to add is that we operated the Trident contrary to his bible and I wish I had read his testimony at the Lane inquiry when I had access to it....but since he was "mates" with some of the other "witnesses" I doubt he would have said "I agree with Cat's Eyes Cunningham...the fools thought they knew better and they didn't otherwise there wouldn't have been a Trident parked in the field at Staines"...The rest is history until you and your mates took over and by then I was long gone.
The only other snippet I have to add is that we operated the Trident contrary to his bible and I wish I had read his testimony at the Lane inquiry when I had access to it....but since he was "mates" with some of the other "witnesses" I doubt he would have said "I agree with Cat's Eyes Cunningham...the fools thought they knew better and they didn't otherwise there wouldn't have been a Trident parked in the field at Staines"...The rest is history until you and your mates took over and by then I was long gone.
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I'm not convinced that crossing the Atlantic in 3 hours is very important to business these days. The sun (clock) still takes 5 hours to cross the Atlantic and another hour to reach Chicago.
Suppose that you have to allow an hour at each end for private car to / from the airport. 5 hours transportation.
In many fields, such as computer performance, reducing the time taken for one operation - if the rest of the operations still take their full time, is a case of diminishing returns, One discovers that making that one operation extremely fast doesn't result in much performance improvement. This "law" is variously attributed to some Big Name Person.
Works fine for Brits coming to visit their subsidiary in North America. You essentially keep up with the sun. But not on the return to the UK.
What about the other direction? Leave the US headquarters at 9 am ... arrive at the British head office 10 "clock hours" later- 19:00 after the business day ends. A whole day shot. The main attraction would be to sleep in a real bed. But the super-fancy first class accommodation on some airlines is clearly an attempt to substitute for the night at the fancy hotel.
Where have I gone wrong?
Suppose that you have to allow an hour at each end for private car to / from the airport. 5 hours transportation.
In many fields, such as computer performance, reducing the time taken for one operation - if the rest of the operations still take their full time, is a case of diminishing returns, One discovers that making that one operation extremely fast doesn't result in much performance improvement. This "law" is variously attributed to some Big Name Person.
Works fine for Brits coming to visit their subsidiary in North America. You essentially keep up with the sun. But not on the return to the UK.
What about the other direction? Leave the US headquarters at 9 am ... arrive at the British head office 10 "clock hours" later- 19:00 after the business day ends. A whole day shot. The main attraction would be to sleep in a real bed. But the super-fancy first class accommodation on some airlines is clearly an attempt to substitute for the night at the fancy hotel.
Where have I gone wrong?
blind pew
I am not surprised DPD had difficulty with your old firm's departure techniques, the peculiarities of which you have described well elsewhere!
I have checked out what he had to say re spiral stability on both VC10s and 707s and believe his advice to be correct.
I am not surprised DPD had difficulty with your old firm's departure techniques, the peculiarities of which you have described well elsewhere!
I have checked out what he had to say re spiral stability on both VC10s and 707s and believe his advice to be correct.
Last edited by Bergerie1; 19th Dec 2014 at 19:05.
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Seacue
As Lord Saatchi said "this aeroplane allowed me to be in two places at the same time. I could be in London at 10:00am and in New York at 10:00am the same day. Without it I couldn't have placed a British flag on Madison Avenue".
Leave London at 10:00am, arrive New York 09:00am, hold your meetings, home on Concorde by late evening or overnight first class on a 747.
No hotels required, 1 day's work in New York takes 1 day.
As Lord Saatchi said "this aeroplane allowed me to be in two places at the same time. I could be in London at 10:00am and in New York at 10:00am the same day. Without it I couldn't have placed a British flag on Madison Avenue".
Leave London at 10:00am, arrive New York 09:00am, hold your meetings, home on Concorde by late evening or overnight first class on a 747.
No hotels required, 1 day's work in New York takes 1 day.
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Cont. Concorde @Shaggy'
I do talk about the AF4590, and I read between the lines that You know that quite well but prefer to tell the fact of the very last flight of the Concorde in as many replies it have to fill instead of pinpointing this flight from start!
Travel-time: You wont be able to convince Me about the future of supersonic commercial flights as I stand by the statement of the web having taken over the task of closing deals, where signatures in ink was the norm until (about) the new millenium :-|
A freind of mine moved across ' the pond' in '96 and ran into unsuspected problems of moving his economy with him as that couldn't be done on phone or Email but needed his signature in ink! In his case there was no need of buying a tricket to the Concorde as he could survive the time it took the US Postal to transport his signature. Today every one of us would have opened a new account and transferred all savings through net/web -banking, and so works the business economy too.
There isn't any practical need of supersonic transportation between any of the continents today :-|
Travel-time: You wont be able to convince Me about the future of supersonic commercial flights as I stand by the statement of the web having taken over the task of closing deals, where signatures in ink was the norm until (about) the new millenium :-|
A freind of mine moved across ' the pond' in '96 and ran into unsuspected problems of moving his economy with him as that couldn't be done on phone or Email but needed his signature in ink! In his case there was no need of buying a tricket to the Concorde as he could survive the time it took the US Postal to transport his signature. Today every one of us would have opened a new account and transferred all savings through net/web -banking, and so works the business economy too.
There isn't any practical need of supersonic transportation between any of the continents today :-|
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Cont. Concorde @Shaggy'
I do talk about the AF4590, and I read between the lines that You know that quite well but prefer to tell the fact of the very last flight of the Concorde in as many replies it have to fill instead of pinpointing this flight from start!
Travel-time: You wont be able to convince Me about the future of supersonic commercial flights as I stand by the statement of the web having taken over the task of closing deals, where signatures in ink was the norm until (about) the new millenium :-|
A freind of mine moved across ' the pond' in '96 and ran into unsuspected problems of moving his economy with him as that couldn't be done on phone or Email but needed his signature in ink! In his case there was no need of buying a tricket to the Concorde as he could survive the time it took the US Postal to transport his signature. Today every one of us would have opened a new account and transferred all savings through net/web -banking, and so works the business economy too.
There isn't any practical need of supersonic transportation between any of the continents today :-|
Travel-time: You wont be able to convince Me about the future of supersonic commercial flights as I stand by the statement of the web having taken over the task of closing deals, where signatures in ink was the norm until (about) the new millenium :-|
A freind of mine moved across ' the pond' in '96 and ran into unsuspected problems of moving his economy with him as that couldn't be done on phone or Email but needed his signature in ink! In his case there was no need of buying a tricket to the Concorde as he could survive the time it took the US Postal to transport his signature. Today every one of us would have opened a new account and transferred all savings through net/web -banking, and so works the business economy too.
There isn't any practical need of supersonic transportation between any of the continents today :-|
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There isn't any practical need of supersonic transportation between any of the continents today
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Originally Posted by flybiker
I do talk about the AF4590, and I read between the lines that You know that quite well but prefer to tell the fact of the very last flight of the Concorde in as many replies it have to fill instead of pinpointing this flight from start!
He quotes the pax makeup of the Paris Accident flight saying it's the last flight, and says this shows Concorde was just a tourist aeroplane by the last flight. And that somehow I knew this to be true! (It's false).
Two things flybiker:
1) I already pointed out you were confusing the Paris accident flight with the last flight, even though 3 years separate them. Yet you say it's my fault you did this! How in christ's name is it my fault?
2) The Paris accident flight was NOT a typical Concorde pax make-up. It was a tourist flight going to meet a cruise liner; that's one reason it was heavily overweight which contributed in no small manner to the accident. I say again Concorde pax make up was on average overwhelmingly business users - 85% in fact. Throughout its 27 years of service. There is not one jot of evidence that it became a 'tourist plane' in its latter years!
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Whilst there may not be much need, there is certainly a market for supersonic travel. Every time I do the mind numbing 12 hour flight between ZA and UK/EU, regardless of the level of comfort, I think how wonderful it would be to do it in less than half the time. The problem is whether the average passenger would pay the price that would have to be charged.
G'day Shaggy!
Probably not. Go back to his post No.53 - he does seem to be referring to the Paris episode as the "last" flight?
But I think the guts of his argument though, is that he believes Concorde was designed for very important businessmen who had to cross the Atlantic in the morning for meetings, sign on dotted lines, seal deals, lotsa handshakes, and then head home for a nice cuppa with the family and kids in the evening.
And now the internet has destroyed this need (but not the cuppa and family).
I could be wrong. Gotta go - as I shouldn't be seen talking to a flagellator.
Can anyone else help here?
But I think the guts of his argument though, is that he believes Concorde was designed for very important businessmen who had to cross the Atlantic in the morning for meetings, sign on dotted lines, seal deals, lotsa handshakes, and then head home for a nice cuppa with the family and kids in the evening.
And now the internet has destroyed this need (but not the cuppa and family).
I could be wrong. Gotta go - as I shouldn't be seen talking to a flagellator.
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Ta Noyade. That's what i thought.
Anyone who thinks you win big business 'over the internet' while your competition makes the journey and talks to the customer in person, looks them in the eye, and maybe takes them to lunch doesn't know much about signing mega deals!
Anyone who thinks you win big business 'over the internet' while your competition makes the journey and talks to the customer in person, looks them in the eye, and maybe takes them to lunch doesn't know much about signing mega deals!
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I think that Concorde IS a significant plane because it was the result of an international dream to go faster. Seacue's points about the time advantages being lost in airport time , and traveling to and from the airport are good ones, and I think that the next generations of SSTs will probably be smaller.
However, Phil Collins, one of the greatest drummers in the world (and being a drummer I KNOW how skilled he is!), played a huge charity gig (Live Aid) in the afternoon in London, then another at the same time in New York, and this was watched by the biggest ever worldwide TV audience! This was a defining moment in world history, a huge chunk of the world'spopulation uniting to relieve a crisis in Africa, and for a major star to be able to do two sets at the same time in London and NY was a cultural and humanitarian event of monumental significance and precedence. Concorde did its part, and we all knew it. Has any other plane in history had such a large "virtual" audience, or played a part in such a huge rallying of humanity to a common cause?
The pros and cons of supersonic airliners, and the costs/efficiency/need are debatable. What is not debatable is that it was perhaps the first major International collaboration, effectively the start of Airbus which is now a major manufacturer, in fact I believe Airbus is now "bigger" than Boeing, and that too is hugely significant. When Concorde was being planned who in the world would ever have thought that Boeing would have a major challenger?!
Concorde introduced huge new technological steps, a "giant leap for mankind" if you like! When they were finally retired, it was reckoned that the air-frames STILL had 20 years to give, and despite the extreme demands of supersonic flight I find that truly staggering.
The last point that demonstrates to me that Concorde is of world-class important concerns an article I read about 10 years ago in Smithsonian Air and Space magazine. Once USA were given retired Concordes, teams of US engineers and technicians were studying them in exacting detail, and this A&S article was all about their investigation and how they were planning to use their findings. Once mankind has made a technological leap, that knowledge is there for all time.
Bums on cheap seats drives the airline business more than ever, internet reduces the need for supersonic flights to meetings, but time is still money and humanity has been driven for centuries to reduce travel time and Concorde is the defining monument of that quest.
However, Phil Collins, one of the greatest drummers in the world (and being a drummer I KNOW how skilled he is!), played a huge charity gig (Live Aid) in the afternoon in London, then another at the same time in New York, and this was watched by the biggest ever worldwide TV audience! This was a defining moment in world history, a huge chunk of the world'spopulation uniting to relieve a crisis in Africa, and for a major star to be able to do two sets at the same time in London and NY was a cultural and humanitarian event of monumental significance and precedence. Concorde did its part, and we all knew it. Has any other plane in history had such a large "virtual" audience, or played a part in such a huge rallying of humanity to a common cause?
The pros and cons of supersonic airliners, and the costs/efficiency/need are debatable. What is not debatable is that it was perhaps the first major International collaboration, effectively the start of Airbus which is now a major manufacturer, in fact I believe Airbus is now "bigger" than Boeing, and that too is hugely significant. When Concorde was being planned who in the world would ever have thought that Boeing would have a major challenger?!
Concorde introduced huge new technological steps, a "giant leap for mankind" if you like! When they were finally retired, it was reckoned that the air-frames STILL had 20 years to give, and despite the extreme demands of supersonic flight I find that truly staggering.
The last point that demonstrates to me that Concorde is of world-class important concerns an article I read about 10 years ago in Smithsonian Air and Space magazine. Once USA were given retired Concordes, teams of US engineers and technicians were studying them in exacting detail, and this A&S article was all about their investigation and how they were planning to use their findings. Once mankind has made a technological leap, that knowledge is there for all time.
Bums on cheap seats drives the airline business more than ever, internet reduces the need for supersonic flights to meetings, but time is still money and humanity has been driven for centuries to reduce travel time and Concorde is the defining monument of that quest.
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joy ride - the internet and virtual conferencing may have helped the wheels of international business to turn and for millions of remote little deals to be done, but no-one ever signed a major deal without usually quite a few face to face look-them-in-the-eye meetings. That means very senior people have to go places and meet up.
And anyone faced with a 12 hour or more long haul flight wouldn't mind that journey time being a quarter of that length.
The need for fast air travel hasn't gone away. It's that in these accountant-driven days, and at current costs of achieving it, we know it can't be afforded!
And anyone faced with a 12 hour or more long haul flight wouldn't mind that journey time being a quarter of that length.
The need for fast air travel hasn't gone away. It's that in these accountant-driven days, and at current costs of achieving it, we know it can't be afforded!