Important British Aircraft
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Some great candidates folks!
The real thing which bothers me is that so much information these days (books, magazines, films, TV) originates in USA and I have lived and worked there for chunks of my life and love it!
However, I have found surprising numbers of Americans have little knowledge or interest in British aviation. For example, many I have met think that only Germany had jets in WW2 and that the B707 was the first trans-Atlantic jet.
I really, REALLY DON'T want to sound like a "Yank Basher" and I don't want to sound like an over-patriotic jingoist, but sometimes they are so keen on American planes and the Enemy planes they encountered, that they overlook British planes and achievements.
These British planes and achievements then get omitted from history, other writers and producers then reference this "incomplete" history and pass it on down the generations. Sometimes I have seen US Aviation programmes broadcast here in UK which are factually wrong, and completely omit pioneering British aircraft.
So what I feel we have to do here is to select a few British planes which were so technically brilliant, or so influential or superior that we can persuade our American friends to take note of them and give them back their rightful place in History.
Can it really be that no British plane is included in a list of the world's most precedent-setting aircraft? I honestly believe that several of the planes in my opening list would most certainly have been included if they had been American, but we don't need to convince ourselves, we need to convince our American friends and colleagues!
The real thing which bothers me is that so much information these days (books, magazines, films, TV) originates in USA and I have lived and worked there for chunks of my life and love it!
However, I have found surprising numbers of Americans have little knowledge or interest in British aviation. For example, many I have met think that only Germany had jets in WW2 and that the B707 was the first trans-Atlantic jet.
I really, REALLY DON'T want to sound like a "Yank Basher" and I don't want to sound like an over-patriotic jingoist, but sometimes they are so keen on American planes and the Enemy planes they encountered, that they overlook British planes and achievements.
These British planes and achievements then get omitted from history, other writers and producers then reference this "incomplete" history and pass it on down the generations. Sometimes I have seen US Aviation programmes broadcast here in UK which are factually wrong, and completely omit pioneering British aircraft.
So what I feel we have to do here is to select a few British planes which were so technically brilliant, or so influential or superior that we can persuade our American friends to take note of them and give them back their rightful place in History.
Can it really be that no British plane is included in a list of the world's most precedent-setting aircraft? I honestly believe that several of the planes in my opening list would most certainly have been included if they had been American, but we don't need to convince ourselves, we need to convince our American friends and colleagues!
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The Trident? First full autoland aircraft.
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Indeed, the Trident perhaps encapsulates in one aeroplane more than any other exactly what was wrong with the British civil airliner business.
First autoland could have been implemented in any airliner, so I don't think the Trident gains any kudos from that.
Wasn't the 146 / RJ the 'most produced' UK airliner? Bit of a niche machine, and no game changer for that.
First autoland could have been implemented in any airliner, so I don't think the Trident gains any kudos from that.
Wasn't the 146 / RJ the 'most produced' UK airliner? Bit of a niche machine, and no game changer for that.
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387 146/RJs completed; Vickers built 445 Viscounts.
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Britten-Norman Islander, 1,280 produced and still going, not sure how many may have been produced in Romania though, but, kinda knocks spots off 387 or 445 production designs 
I think the Comet has to be on any list of precedent setters as it was the first jet airliner, but our transatlantic cousins,usually non aerospace admittedly, tend to think it was the 707. In the same way they think Lindbergh was the first person to fly the Atlantic .
Concorde also ahas to be there as the only real SST but of course it is half French so not really a 'British ' aircraft.
The Lovely VC 10 doesn't really have any claim sadly, looking nice and making a lot of noise not really counting for anything, although the Trident with its Autoland which I think was designed in from the outset, actually does-and I liked tridents anyway.
Didn't we build the first real carrier borne aircraft and carrier borne jet too.
Also the worlds first stealth bomber the TSR2 which vanished on completion of its test programme.
Joking aside I think for all its many faults , most especially complete lack of marketing savvy and fatal government interference , UK aerospace industry has made some pretty big contributions and has a decent number of firsts which seem to have been overlooked .
PB
Concorde also ahas to be there as the only real SST but of course it is half French so not really a 'British ' aircraft.
The Lovely VC 10 doesn't really have any claim sadly, looking nice and making a lot of noise not really counting for anything, although the Trident with its Autoland which I think was designed in from the outset, actually does-and I liked tridents anyway.
Didn't we build the first real carrier borne aircraft and carrier borne jet too.
Also the worlds first stealth bomber the TSR2 which vanished on completion of its test programme.
Joking aside I think for all its many faults , most especially complete lack of marketing savvy and fatal government interference , UK aerospace industry has made some pretty big contributions and has a decent number of firsts which seem to have been overlooked .
PB
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From Ghengis
Britain has had many unique 'firsts' but for whatever reason, very little seems to have evolved, from some excellent designs
ie 707 to 747
but an evolutionary dead-end,
ie 707 to 747
SSD
First autoland could have been implemented in any airliner, so I don't think the Trident gains any kudos from that.
Sorry, but no. The Trident was designed with the necessary system integrity from the outset. With the electro-mechanical computing systems of the day only fully triplex systems could achieve a provable level of reliability for fully automatic landing.
GtE
Mosquito: a fantastic aeroplane, but an evolutionary dead-end, unless you count the plywood fuselage of the Vampire.
We haven't agreed that evolutionary dead-ends can't be Important!
Let's perhaps agree that it was an imaginative use of available resources and that it set aerodynamic standards which served the company and its successors well into the "jet age" - the much-praised Airbus wing team has its origins in the fluid motion section of the Hatfield Aerodynamics department.
Not everything we did at Hatfield was world-class, but at least give us credit for that which was.
First autoland could have been implemented in any airliner, so I don't think the Trident gains any kudos from that.
Sorry, but no. The Trident was designed with the necessary system integrity from the outset. With the electro-mechanical computing systems of the day only fully triplex systems could achieve a provable level of reliability for fully automatic landing.
GtE
Mosquito: a fantastic aeroplane, but an evolutionary dead-end, unless you count the plywood fuselage of the Vampire.
We haven't agreed that evolutionary dead-ends can't be Important!
Let's perhaps agree that it was an imaginative use of available resources and that it set aerodynamic standards which served the company and its successors well into the "jet age" - the much-praised Airbus wing team has its origins in the fluid motion section of the Hatfield Aerodynamics department.
Not everything we did at Hatfield was world-class, but at least give us credit for that which was.
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On the balance of historical probability I think that the first 4 major Aviation Precedents were
1) The Mongolfier's ascent in their hot air balloon, setting the first World Precedent (on balance of historical probability) for humans aloft in a craft which resulted from planned research and experimentation.
2) Cayley's glider(s). Based on aeronautical science which he pioneered and which was studied as "first port of call" by subsequent aviators, this set the next major precedent (on balance of h.p.) : carrying a human aloft in a controllable heavier than air machine.
3) Getting a person aloft under power, and there are several candidates, my b. of-h.p. choice would be Clement Ader's Eole.
4) 1st powered, controlled, sustained flight, b. of h.p.: Wright Flyer
I believe these four are the World's First Aviation Precedents after which we get into refinement, improvement, speed, duration etc., and now we have to select the British planes of World-Wide precedent-setting importance. Sadly some superb and much-loved planes might not fit these specific criteria. Those that DEFINITELY DO, in my opinion, are
Vickers Vimy, first non-stop north Atlantic crossing, no breaks, no re-fueling.
Vickers Viscount, first turbine airliner
de Havilland Comet first jet airliner
Without the first 4 precedents, and without these three British planes I think that no list of over 15 planes from around the world is complete!
I would possibly add Concorde. Obviously it was not British but Anglo-French, so perhaps it set the precedent of multi-national airliner manufacturing, now becoming the norm.
If you want to exclude Concorde from the list:
You might argue that Concorde has set no precedent.
I would argue that Concorde has set no precedent.
YET!
1) The Mongolfier's ascent in their hot air balloon, setting the first World Precedent (on balance of historical probability) for humans aloft in a craft which resulted from planned research and experimentation.
2) Cayley's glider(s). Based on aeronautical science which he pioneered and which was studied as "first port of call" by subsequent aviators, this set the next major precedent (on balance of h.p.) : carrying a human aloft in a controllable heavier than air machine.
3) Getting a person aloft under power, and there are several candidates, my b. of-h.p. choice would be Clement Ader's Eole.
4) 1st powered, controlled, sustained flight, b. of h.p.: Wright Flyer
I believe these four are the World's First Aviation Precedents after which we get into refinement, improvement, speed, duration etc., and now we have to select the British planes of World-Wide precedent-setting importance. Sadly some superb and much-loved planes might not fit these specific criteria. Those that DEFINITELY DO, in my opinion, are
Vickers Vimy, first non-stop north Atlantic crossing, no breaks, no re-fueling.
Vickers Viscount, first turbine airliner
de Havilland Comet first jet airliner
Without the first 4 precedents, and without these three British planes I think that no list of over 15 planes from around the world is complete!
I would possibly add Concorde. Obviously it was not British but Anglo-French, so perhaps it set the precedent of multi-national airliner manufacturing, now becoming the norm.
If you want to exclude Concorde from the list:
You might argue that Concorde has set no precedent.
I would argue that Concorde has set no precedent.
YET!
So you're basically saying Alan Lupton that whilst it may have been a structural evolutionary dead-end, aerodynamically it wasn't and created knowledge that fed into the successful post war dH designs?
I have a bit of an issue incidentally with the "importance" of both the Vickers Vimy and the Wright Flyer. Both were firsts - yes. But both took the wrong technology to the limit it could go, but that then progressed no further.
The real inventor of the aeroplane wasn't the Wrights, it was Bleriot, who first designed and flew an aeroplane in what we would regard as a modern configuration. Similarly, Alcock and Brown were brave men, and it was an impressive achievement, but arguably the first real modern - non-stop, vaguelly-modern navigation techniques, enclosed cockpit, land-at-an-airport Atlantic crossing was either Lindberg or Chamberlin in 1927.
G
I have a bit of an issue incidentally with the "importance" of both the Vickers Vimy and the Wright Flyer. Both were firsts - yes. But both took the wrong technology to the limit it could go, but that then progressed no further.
The real inventor of the aeroplane wasn't the Wrights, it was Bleriot, who first designed and flew an aeroplane in what we would regard as a modern configuration. Similarly, Alcock and Brown were brave men, and it was an impressive achievement, but arguably the first real modern - non-stop, vaguelly-modern navigation techniques, enclosed cockpit, land-at-an-airport Atlantic crossing was either Lindberg or Chamberlin in 1927.
G
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While the Mosquito may have been an evolutionary dead end structurally, (at least for military aviation), it did prove that the concept of the unarmed bomber was viable. It was also one of the earliest successful multi role aircraft.
I like threads like this. Gets one thinking. All the moans about the VC10 and the Trident (not being 707 or 727) reminded me that we British did not build a significant podded aircraft ever! The 146 may qualify but with it's shortcomings well known it was never going to sell in huge quantities. There were terrible quality issues too. We failed to go down the accepted best design route. We even tried to re-engine the Comet (sorry, Nimrod). Who on earth thought of that? Having said all that I flew the Vulcan, Canberra and Hunter. All gorgeous aircraft in their own way and true British classics.
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SSD
First autoland could have been implemented in any airliner, so I don't think the Trident gains any kudos from that.
Sorry, but no. The Trident was designed with the necessary system integrity from the outset. With the electro-mechanical computing systems of the day only fully triplex systems could achieve a provable level of reliability for fully automatic landing.
First autoland could have been implemented in any airliner, so I don't think the Trident gains any kudos from that.
Sorry, but no. The Trident was designed with the necessary system integrity from the outset. With the electro-mechanical computing systems of the day only fully triplex systems could achieve a provable level of reliability for fully automatic landing.
SSD
Precedent is often but not always the first to do or be recognised for doing something.
Autoland really would only work in a Trident because it had triplex systems all over it and other airliners of the time didn't. Several didn't have Triplex hydraulics or power generation and you cannot practically add those systems back into an airframe that was not built around them.
So for all its many faults the dear old DH/HS 121 gripper did indeed set the precedent for autolands. Sure many followed but Trident was the first to do it reliably and in full airline service.
Precedent means an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances. So, many later airliners had autoland and they had it because the trident provided a practical and realistic guide on how to land a plane automatically and that's why the Trident is the one that set the precedent
Precedent is often but not always the first to do or be recognised for doing something.
Autoland really would only work in a Trident because it had triplex systems all over it and other airliners of the time didn't. Several didn't have Triplex hydraulics or power generation and you cannot practically add those systems back into an airframe that was not built around them.
So for all its many faults the dear old DH/HS 121 gripper did indeed set the precedent for autolands. Sure many followed but Trident was the first to do it reliably and in full airline service.
Precedent means an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances. So, many later airliners had autoland and they had it because the trident provided a practical and realistic guide on how to land a plane automatically and that's why the Trident is the one that set the precedent
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Yes, the Trident was the first to do autoland, but not because it was a Trident! The 'first' you are claiming a place in history for goes to the triplicated systems and the other autoland gubbins, not to the airframe and engines that constitute a Trident.
That it was fitted later to many and various types shows that to be true.
That it was fitted later to many and various types shows that to be true.
Yes, the Trident was the first to do autoland, but not because it was a Trident!
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Not at all. A Comet is a Comet. A Trident is a Trident. Fit either with triple systems and autoland gubbins and it can do autolands. The ability to do autolands is independant of type.
You might as well say the first aeroplane to be fitted with a radio was a landmark aeroplane.
You might as well say the first aeroplane to be fitted with a radio was a landmark aeroplane.
Er, Why do you think the Trident was called the Trident?
( Clue . It wasn't because it had three jet engines as power plants)
Or later four for that matter.
( Clue . It wasn't because it had three jet engines as power plants)
Or later four for that matter.