Important British Aircraft

[Noyade]

Hi Joy Ride.

omits important British aircraft

Yes, I'm interested in this. What's missing in say, publications, that particularly irks you? I'm looking at British and American coffee table "Great/Famous" style books and yes, the lists differ greatly depending on which side of the Atlantic you're on, but as you said, that's to be expected.

For example, here's an American "Great" aircraft content page. What's missing, that really hurts your pride?...

[treadigraph]

Noyade, if I'm not mistaken that's the contents list from an American book written by the very British James Gilbert while he was an editor at Flying!

[joy ride]

Noyade, I am not sure how old that list is, but feel that it is not current. I feel that there is a progressive "forgetting" over the generations and it seems to be to be a growing trend. your list does not list Comet. Also it lists the B17 but not the Lancaster which a far greater bomb carrier in the European theatre in WW2.

As examples, in America I have frequently encountered the "fact" that only Germany had jets in WW2 and that they invented jets, and more of them seem to know of von Ohain than Whittle. The 707 is frequently described as the first jet airliner, Linderberg was the first to cross the North Atlantic non-stop (omitting the "solo"!) and have little or no knowledge of Alcok and Brown's flight nearly a decade earlier.

I honestly believe that when I read a British magazine, e.g. Aeroplane I learn about planes from all around the world. There is a weighting towards British planes, but I have seen plenty of features and Databases on a very wide range of American military and civilian aircraft. I have read various equivalents in USA, mostly Smithsonian Air and Space, but I have to say that in the great deal I have read and watched over there there is a large amount of American and Enemy coverage but vastly less about British planes than we learn about theirs.

This is partly because USA is a large wealthy country with lots of extremely talented people and an ENORMOUS contribution to aviation, and only a fool would try to deny this, Britain's contribution, for all sorts of reasons, is considerably less, and over there our efforts seem to be regarded as "local interest only".

Finally, just to illustrate what I am starting notice, I have been Christmas shopping a few times and have various children to buy presents for. Toy shops seem to be chock-full of toy/model American planes, trucks, trains, buses, cars etc.. This year I have seen stacks of F16s, and stealth planes, P51s, Peterbilt and International Trucks, Boeing airliners, you name it!

I really don't want to sound anti-American, and I understand that they have so much aviation to choose a "Top" list from, but when it comes to a "World" list it is rare to see much or any mention of British examples, but I do hope to be convinced otherwise!

[seafire6b]

Noyade

I reckon the list's missing the Lanc (being another design-platform that continued for decades) and the Mosquito, a true MRCA. Indeed as a bomber, the Mozzie compared very favourably with (or, contentiously, better than?) the B-17 in terms of payload and range.

[Discorde]

Does the Miles M52 qualify? It would have been the world's first supersonic aircraft but the government (typically) cancelled the project. To compound their crime they then gave the US the data that Miles had accumulated during the project, which turned out to be very useful to Bell, who were having trouble with their own supersonic project.

The Vanguard in its passenger configuration was loved by the dental profession. If you had fillings at the beginning of a flight, they'd rattled and vibrated out by the end.

A flavour of what the Vanguard was like to fly (in its freighter version) can be found in the novel 'The Damocles Plot'.

[joy ride]

Scotbill: your mention of the Trident/727 non-reciprocal visit:

I first heard of this from an American airline Captain but was not sure if it was really true. it seems plausible to me, but is this actually a verified fact or an aviation "urban myth"? Another case of British "Fair Play" going too far?!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The dH 121 debacle is a sad tale as has been recounted. What's not yet been mentioned is the ludicrous downsizing demanded by BEA (and agreed to by dH) meant that RR ceased development of the Medway engine that would have powered it.

Anyone know if the Medway would have found a market beyond the 121 had RR continued with it (other than the Trident 3, of course, which it would have suited well!)?

[seafire6b]

A pal of mine working for BEA had to conduct a profitability analysis on the Merchantman. At the end of some months with calculator and paperwork, he then had the unhappy task of advising his bosses it required an average payload of 109% before the red ink could be put aside!

I think that figure actually reflected BEA's very high operating costs at the time. Subsequent Vanguard/Merchantman operators, with undoubtedly lower cost overheads, seemed able make money with the such freighters for years afterwards.

[joy ride]

Somewhat off topic, but I had never heard of the RR Medway! In fact, having grown up in Kent I always wondered why our river's name had been ignored by RR!

Now I live in London and wonder if there ever was or will be an RR Thames or Deptford Creek!

[seafire6b]

scotbill

I too had heard the stories about the 121 visit not being returned. Although the supposition does align with the then very "British" way of doing business, passing on plans and ideas to the competition - how many times have we seen that? Perhaps someone with connections from around Hatfield could throw some light on it?

So meanwhile, regarding your theory:

So, arguably, the DH121 was the most influential British aeroplane of all time!

Yep, I'll go along with that!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

So, arguably, the DH121 was the most influential British aeroplane of all time!

I think the fact that it was never built disqualifies it.

---------------------------------------------------

RR Medway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Medway

[astir 8]

There's been no mention of the aircraft which probably introduced more Brits alive today, including many of you lot to the joys of piloting:-

The Slingsby T31 Cadet Mk III and the T21 Sedbergh

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Yep, for me it was the glorious summer of 1976, Nympsfield, and a T21 (and a Bocian, but The Barge was my very first!).

[scotbill]

SS driver

I think the fact that it was never built disqualifies it.

From your sniping at the Trident can I assume you are an un-reconstructed ex-BOAC man?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Scotbill - You know what they say about 'Assume' on all the cheap management courses. I'm afraid you are guilty.

Sniping? No, I tell it as I find it. The Trident was an awful customer-led emasculation of what could have been a very good aeroplane (dH 121). I have no affiliation to any airline never having worked in the industry.

Do you disagree with my analysis of the Trident?

Trident 1; as above, stupidly small, and a 'gripper'.

Trident 2; about as good as the Trident got. But still too small for the market by far.

Trident 3; the right size at last, but too late and an abortion of an aeroplane underpowered with Speys so supplemented by a hopelessly unreliable boost engine.

Not really a proud record, is it?

[Haraka]

SSD wrote

Yep, for me it was the glorious summer of 1976, Nympsfield, and a T21 (and a Bocian, but The Barge was my very first!).

Sailplanes. So that might possibly explain your confusion regarding my use of jet engine terminology in my posting.

Why do you think the Trident was called the Trident?
( Clue . It wasn't because it had three jet engines as power plants)
Or later four for that matter.

In aviation engine terminology this differentiates the use of an engine from that of an Auxiliary Power Unit ( APU), which by coincidence was what my father was responsible for on Trident whilst with Bristol Siddeley Engines in around 1965.

[WHBM]

I think the Boeing visit to DeH prior to the 727 is fairly widely known. However, you wouldn't get anything significant out of one visit. Furthermore, with Rolls deciding not to go ahead with the right engine, and DeH downsizing the airframe, what is left that they could have taken ? Likewise, the Trident was generally known as the "Gripper" due to its ground-gripping take-off performance. This was certainly not true of the 727, with its novel high-lift wing devices that got it in/out of short fields previously non-jet (the BEA Trident generally operated to European major airports which had adequate runways).

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Haraka. Confusion? Get real!

What have you got against pilots who first flew gliders? I started in '76 on gliders then went to powered aircraft 2 years later (I won't say 'progressed', as I learned an awful lot in unpowered flight). Many good stick & rudder pilots began on gliders.

Don't knock it unless you've tried it (I'm guessing you haven't?).

PS - I agree with WHBM; I don't think the 727 owes anything to the Trident. It's what the Trident should have been and wasn't. It seems the world's airline procurement folk thought so to.

.

[Haraka]

SSD
I read with amusement your attempted engagement with Alan Lupton whose informed opinion you chose to decry. I will ignore your Glider Pilots comment apart from to state that I do include a Silver "C" somewhere away among my flying qualifications.
Alan finally got exasperated with you and quipped:

Code:

I shall stop soon as there seems no point in my writing the same thing again.

I'll follow his good example on this one.

Haraka Out.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by seafire6b

I reckon the list's missing the Lanc (being another design-platform that continued for decades) and the Mosquito, a true MRCA. Indeed as a bomber, the Mozzie compared very favourably with (or, contentiously, better than?) the B-17 in terms of payload and range.

The four-engine bombers, Avro Lancaster and Handley Page Halifax (I'm adding that in, in part, due to Mr WHBM Senior being WW2 Halifax aircrew ), seemingly very good examples of contemporary design, were unfortunately NOT followed by worthwhile civilian success derivates. The HP Hermes that was, essentially, a Halifax with a new fuselage, was a real crock, 20 for BOAC that they got rid off as soon as they could, that flew with a ludicrous tail-low inefficient attitude which points to an absolute Design 1.01 blunder at Radlett (the prototype crashed two minutes into its maiden flight, killing the senior HP test crew, due to a major control surface mis-design), while the Avro Tudor, again a Lanc with a new civvy fuselage, was a worse fiasco that never really got any airline acceptance, despite many versions and a huge number being built, part-built, or more sensibly cancelled before delivery. Oh dear.

The Mozzie was indeed brilliant. Two big Merlins strapped to a grand piano