The "Whistling wheelbarrow"
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JW411
How bl***y rude... I simply quoted from the Dowty Handbook and was lead to believe it was true. Having studied the Dart as part of my basic training it was also true to believe what was taught... that it had a fully reverseing prop. Which, it DOES! Not that it was enabled on the Argosy.
That's the last effing post that I make. Good manners cost nothing!
I'm sorry old son but you are talking through a hole in your head.
That's the last effing post that I make. Good manners cost nothing!
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... the load was found to be more than double the declared weight!
Chittern. Lighten up.
I've had much worse thrown at me on Prune and I've never considered being 'offended'.
115 Sqn was never at Benson with Argosys. It was based at Cottesmore and was a Signals Command squadron (or whatever they were called at that time).
After Cottesmore they went to Brize Norton and were based on the south side of the airfield, I think in the old 511 Sqn HQ?
I have fond memories of attending Taff John's farewell thrash there around 1975. (I was on 53 Sqn flying Belfasts by then).
What a wonderful chap Taff was. He never said very much but what he did say was well worth listening to. I can remember Taff coming out to Bahrain as OC Ardet. I took him on a "strip trainer" visiting several bundu locations in Oman.
The flight engineer was not my normal one (Eric Yates) and he obviously was quite nervous about "up country" flying. Taff and the rest of us were having a good day out but the F/E was determined to stop the fun.
At one point we got airborne from Ibri (I think) and the said F/E made the comment that not only was the Doppler u/s but the pressurisation system was now suspect (we hadn't been above 3,000 ft for hours).
The Prince of Darkness took his pipe out of his mouth and said, "Mr S****n, as far as I am concerned, Doppler and pressurisation are luxuries".
That shut him up!
We could even start another thread about Taff John stories.
After Cottesmore they went to Brize Norton and were based on the south side of the airfield, I think in the old 511 Sqn HQ?
I have fond memories of attending Taff John's farewell thrash there around 1975. (I was on 53 Sqn flying Belfasts by then).
What a wonderful chap Taff was. He never said very much but what he did say was well worth listening to. I can remember Taff coming out to Bahrain as OC Ardet. I took him on a "strip trainer" visiting several bundu locations in Oman.
The flight engineer was not my normal one (Eric Yates) and he obviously was quite nervous about "up country" flying. Taff and the rest of us were having a good day out but the F/E was determined to stop the fun.
At one point we got airborne from Ibri (I think) and the said F/E made the comment that not only was the Doppler u/s but the pressurisation system was now suspect (we hadn't been above 3,000 ft for hours).
The Prince of Darkness took his pipe out of his mouth and said, "Mr S****n, as far as I am concerned, Doppler and pressurisation are luxuries".
That shut him up!
We could even start another thread about Taff John stories.
TheChitterneFlyer:
09 Feb:
"How bl**dy rude. I simply quoted from the Dowty handbook and believed it was true...........
That's the last effing post that I make. Good manners cost nothing!"
Now, I was going to ignore this riposte of yours but I'm afraid that it is you, my friend, who is lacking in good manners.
08 Feb:
"Actually, all of the Dart series engine/propellor (sic) were equipped with Reverse Thrust. It was only the civil variants which were "reverse disabled".
The same engine (actually a Dart 201 is fitted to the Andover C.1".
So, you are telling me, who actually flew the Argosy C.Mk.1 for 10 years (for six of which I was a training captain) that I don't know what I'm talking about just because you have a set of Dowty Rotol notes.
Don't you think that was pretty rude?
Perhaps you can tell all of us out here just how much flight deck experience that you have on the Argosy? How many times did you reverse an Argosy?
I was always taught a good rule in the RAF "Before opening mouth, engage brain".
Going back to your "same engine" (actually a Dart 201) statement that you made:
The Argosy was fitted with a RR Dart Da8 engine (as per the Viscount etc). The military version was up-rated to give 2,470 shp. This was achieved by fitting a "hot" back-end so that we could operate at higher power settings.
(Those of you with good memories will remember 14,200/730 which could be upped to 14,500/785 or even 15,000/750.)
What we really wanted for the military Argosy was the proposed Dart Da10 which would have given us 3,000 shp (and a reversing propeller). I can well remember the articles in the national press at the time that Rolls Royce were asking the government for a £10 million grant so that they could get on with the research and development exercise.
The government of the day refused. However, the Japanese had to come to the rescue. They had designed their YS-11 airliner around the Da10 so they paid for the R & D.
It was then a very simple exercise to develop the Da10 into the Da12 (which was a very different engine from the Da8) for the Andover C.Mk.1 which produced about 3245 shp (and had reversing propellers).
"That's the last effing posting that I make".
Possibly a wise decision.
09 Feb:
"How bl**dy rude. I simply quoted from the Dowty handbook and believed it was true...........
That's the last effing post that I make. Good manners cost nothing!"
Now, I was going to ignore this riposte of yours but I'm afraid that it is you, my friend, who is lacking in good manners.
08 Feb:
"Actually, all of the Dart series engine/propellor (sic) were equipped with Reverse Thrust. It was only the civil variants which were "reverse disabled".
The same engine (actually a Dart 201 is fitted to the Andover C.1".
So, you are telling me, who actually flew the Argosy C.Mk.1 for 10 years (for six of which I was a training captain) that I don't know what I'm talking about just because you have a set of Dowty Rotol notes.
Don't you think that was pretty rude?
Perhaps you can tell all of us out here just how much flight deck experience that you have on the Argosy? How many times did you reverse an Argosy?
I was always taught a good rule in the RAF "Before opening mouth, engage brain".
Going back to your "same engine" (actually a Dart 201) statement that you made:
The Argosy was fitted with a RR Dart Da8 engine (as per the Viscount etc). The military version was up-rated to give 2,470 shp. This was achieved by fitting a "hot" back-end so that we could operate at higher power settings.
(Those of you with good memories will remember 14,200/730 which could be upped to 14,500/785 or even 15,000/750.)
What we really wanted for the military Argosy was the proposed Dart Da10 which would have given us 3,000 shp (and a reversing propeller). I can well remember the articles in the national press at the time that Rolls Royce were asking the government for a £10 million grant so that they could get on with the research and development exercise.
The government of the day refused. However, the Japanese had to come to the rescue. They had designed their YS-11 airliner around the Da10 so they paid for the R & D.
It was then a very simple exercise to develop the Da10 into the Da12 (which was a very different engine from the Da8) for the Andover C.Mk.1 which produced about 3245 shp (and had reversing propellers).
"That's the last effing posting that I make".
Possibly a wise decision.
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Thanks for all the replies everybody, tho I haven't had a chance to read them yet, but my post has obviously struck a chord, given the no of responses. Anyway, here are the links to my three other photos of Argosies. Firstly, a civil example, G-APRL, in the colours of its last owner, Elan. This aircraft is preserved at the Midlands Air Museum immediately adjacent to Coventry airport:
JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-APRL (CN: 6652) Private Armstrong Whitworth 650 Argosy by Michael Blank
Then another civil aircraft, sister ship to G-APRL, G-APRN, photographed thirty-seven years ago, in March 1974, at Castle Donington, in ABC colours:
ABC Argosy at Castle Donington 16-3-74 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
And finally, another RAF aircraft, XP411/8442M, preserved at Cosford:
ScanImage16 1024 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
The first RAF machine is obviously in ASC colours, but can anyone tell me please what are the rather handsome colours carried by the Cosford example?
JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-APRL (CN: 6652) Private Armstrong Whitworth 650 Argosy by Michael Blank
Then another civil aircraft, sister ship to G-APRL, G-APRN, photographed thirty-seven years ago, in March 1974, at Castle Donington, in ABC colours:
ABC Argosy at Castle Donington 16-3-74 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
And finally, another RAF aircraft, XP411/8442M, preserved at Cosford:
ScanImage16 1024 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
The first RAF machine is obviously in ASC colours, but can anyone tell me please what are the rather handsome colours carried by the Cosford example?
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When I visited Fox Field at Lancaster, California, there was an Argosy preserved there as well.
Doubtless there may also be examples downunda.
What happened to the two OTRAG aircraft? I remember seeing one at East Midlands about 30 years ago.
Doubtless there may also be examples downunda.
What happened to the two OTRAG aircraft? I remember seeing one at East Midlands about 30 years ago.
ETPS:
I'm sorry JJ, are you trying to tell me something?
The last boss of No.105 was Eddie Rigg (who I still visit pretty frequently). Eddie was an ETPS instructor for many years and taught, among others, John Farley of Harrier fame how to be a test pilot.
When 34 Sqn (Beverleys) in Bahrain were axed in the Defence Cuts, they told the Army that they would never be supplied in the field by the Argosy.
And so it was that Eddie and I started off with looking at Bait al Falaj.
Now, as you know, Bait was a fairly interesting airfield to get into with an Argosy.
I spent a lot of my time taking crews around the TOS area and Oman and training at Bait was always a pretty interesting exercise for the Benson crews.
One of my undying memories was checking out the late Archie Coutts who described Bait as a "cheeky little strip, possessed of a certain boldness"!
I'm sorry JJ, are you trying to tell me something?
The last boss of No.105 was Eddie Rigg (who I still visit pretty frequently). Eddie was an ETPS instructor for many years and taught, among others, John Farley of Harrier fame how to be a test pilot.
When 34 Sqn (Beverleys) in Bahrain were axed in the Defence Cuts, they told the Army that they would never be supplied in the field by the Argosy.
And so it was that Eddie and I started off with looking at Bait al Falaj.
Now, as you know, Bait was a fairly interesting airfield to get into with an Argosy.
I spent a lot of my time taking crews around the TOS area and Oman and training at Bait was always a pretty interesting exercise for the Benson crews.
One of my undying memories was checking out the late Archie Coutts who described Bait as a "cheeky little strip, possessed of a certain boldness"!
Last edited by JW411; 9th Feb 2011 at 19:01.
I was answering Propliner's question about the origin of the Cosford Argosy colour scheme, Jock. Eddie Rigg arrived on 105 shortly before I was tourex. I regret never meeting his famous sister, Diana.
Which neatly gets me to my first take-off at MOS standards:
The year was 1965 and Flt Lt Ian Smith and his goverment in Rhodesia had declared UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence).
Our Labour Government of the day didn't like this very much but the best they could do was to hit everybody in sight with a wet kipper.
The boss man in Tanzania (Kaunda?) demanded that the British government defend him from the heathens in Rhodesia.
The British Government responded by sending 29 Squadron, which was equipped with Javelin all-weather fighters, from Akrotiri (Cyprus) to Lusaka.
I was at home in my pit at Benson when I was rudely awakened and told to get into a Land Rover and was then taken to Lyneham. I got in a Comet 2 (I remember the MALM was a big jolly lady called Andy Devine) and so we got spewed out on to the tarmac at Akrotiri.
After a couple of hours kip, in the middle of the night, we took over XP443, a Benson Argosy, and set off for Bahrain via Tehran. My log book tells me that it was Novemeber 20th 1965.
The aeroplane was full of "radar cabins". In fact, it was part of a mobile fighter control system (I think there were three other aircraft involved).
Anyway, this was our first real go at MOS (Military Operating Standards). We got airborne in the dark from Akrotiri and set off northwards towards Turkey to go round the old CENTO route to Tehran.
We could not get above 7,000 feet at MOS weights. However, we had a brilliant navigator who was able to use his single Doppler to its best advantage and so it was that, in the best interests of the service, that we went round the CENTO route at night and the highest that we ever got was 11,000 ft between Van and Tatvan.
After refuelling at Tehran, we set sail for Bahrain (via Sharjah).
It was not possible in those days to file a flight plan to Bahrain from Tehran.
The Iranians still claimed ownership of Bahrain. So our designater of OBBI on the flight plan was immediately rejected (I thik they called it OIII - but I can't remember) so we had to file for OMSJ (Sharjah) and then divert to Bahrain as soon as we crossed the FIR.
Anyway, we duly arrived in Bahrain with the air defence radar and a 105 Squadron crew from Aden took over the aircraft and took this vital piece of Labour Government policy down to Zambia.
I have always felt grateful to Harold Wilson and his government ever since for introducing me to the world of useless politics. The act of sending a squadron of Javelins and a mobile defence radar to Zambia achieved the square root of FA.
What made it even more interesting was that my co-pliot's father was the deputy boss of the Rhodesian Air Force. The whole exercise was a nonsense.
Just to finish off this particular rant; a year or so later and I am now a training captain with 105 Sqn in Aden and I was night flying with two or three co-pilots who had to do so many training exercise every month.
Night flying in Aden in an Argosy was purgatory. We couldn't pressurise when we were in the circuit (we might have to get out quickly) so it was a very wet and sticky business (temperature at night was an average of 100 with a relative humidity of 98%).
This particular night, I had Pash Broughton as my navigator. Suddenly, there was a "Mayday" call from a 29 Sqn Javelin (we obviously didn't know that at the time).
He was coming up from Africa at night and all he had (apart from his navigator) was a single ADF which was broken. He was desperately short of fuel and had already shut down one engine. He could see in the dark the east coast of the Red Sea but he didn't know which way to turn when he got there.
I wasn't really sure how I could contribute to this drama but Pash in the back came up trumps.
There was a single particularly active thunderstorm up country somewhere near Dhala. Pash had it plotted. "Ask him if he can see the thunderstorm" said Pash. "If it is on his left, then he needs to turn left, if it is on his right, then he needs to turn right".
This is what is called professionalism. The Javelin landed on Runway 08 at Khormaksar (after ATC had persuaded him that the lights of Mallah Strait was not the runway) with about 18 gallons of fuel left.
I always reckoned that Pash should have got some sort of recognition for his help. He is now, by the way, one of the big brains in the Royal Institute of Navigation).
I just wish I had read the Dowty Rotol manual.
The year was 1965 and Flt Lt Ian Smith and his goverment in Rhodesia had declared UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence).
Our Labour Government of the day didn't like this very much but the best they could do was to hit everybody in sight with a wet kipper.
The boss man in Tanzania (Kaunda?) demanded that the British government defend him from the heathens in Rhodesia.
The British Government responded by sending 29 Squadron, which was equipped with Javelin all-weather fighters, from Akrotiri (Cyprus) to Lusaka.
I was at home in my pit at Benson when I was rudely awakened and told to get into a Land Rover and was then taken to Lyneham. I got in a Comet 2 (I remember the MALM was a big jolly lady called Andy Devine) and so we got spewed out on to the tarmac at Akrotiri.
After a couple of hours kip, in the middle of the night, we took over XP443, a Benson Argosy, and set off for Bahrain via Tehran. My log book tells me that it was Novemeber 20th 1965.
The aeroplane was full of "radar cabins". In fact, it was part of a mobile fighter control system (I think there were three other aircraft involved).
Anyway, this was our first real go at MOS (Military Operating Standards). We got airborne in the dark from Akrotiri and set off northwards towards Turkey to go round the old CENTO route to Tehran.
We could not get above 7,000 feet at MOS weights. However, we had a brilliant navigator who was able to use his single Doppler to its best advantage and so it was that, in the best interests of the service, that we went round the CENTO route at night and the highest that we ever got was 11,000 ft between Van and Tatvan.
After refuelling at Tehran, we set sail for Bahrain (via Sharjah).
It was not possible in those days to file a flight plan to Bahrain from Tehran.
The Iranians still claimed ownership of Bahrain. So our designater of OBBI on the flight plan was immediately rejected (I thik they called it OIII - but I can't remember) so we had to file for OMSJ (Sharjah) and then divert to Bahrain as soon as we crossed the FIR.
Anyway, we duly arrived in Bahrain with the air defence radar and a 105 Squadron crew from Aden took over the aircraft and took this vital piece of Labour Government policy down to Zambia.
I have always felt grateful to Harold Wilson and his government ever since for introducing me to the world of useless politics. The act of sending a squadron of Javelins and a mobile defence radar to Zambia achieved the square root of FA.
What made it even more interesting was that my co-pliot's father was the deputy boss of the Rhodesian Air Force. The whole exercise was a nonsense.
Just to finish off this particular rant; a year or so later and I am now a training captain with 105 Sqn in Aden and I was night flying with two or three co-pilots who had to do so many training exercise every month.
Night flying in Aden in an Argosy was purgatory. We couldn't pressurise when we were in the circuit (we might have to get out quickly) so it was a very wet and sticky business (temperature at night was an average of 100 with a relative humidity of 98%).
This particular night, I had Pash Broughton as my navigator. Suddenly, there was a "Mayday" call from a 29 Sqn Javelin (we obviously didn't know that at the time).
He was coming up from Africa at night and all he had (apart from his navigator) was a single ADF which was broken. He was desperately short of fuel and had already shut down one engine. He could see in the dark the east coast of the Red Sea but he didn't know which way to turn when he got there.
I wasn't really sure how I could contribute to this drama but Pash in the back came up trumps.
There was a single particularly active thunderstorm up country somewhere near Dhala. Pash had it plotted. "Ask him if he can see the thunderstorm" said Pash. "If it is on his left, then he needs to turn left, if it is on his right, then he needs to turn right".
This is what is called professionalism. The Javelin landed on Runway 08 at Khormaksar (after ATC had persuaded him that the lights of Mallah Strait was not the runway) with about 18 gallons of fuel left.
I always reckoned that Pash should have got some sort of recognition for his help. He is now, by the way, one of the big brains in the Royal Institute of Navigation).
I just wish I had read the Dowty Rotol manual.
A lot of us got that one wrong then, but I do know that Julie Andrews' brother John Wells was a co-pilot on 84 sqn Beverleys when I was stationed In Bahrain.
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JW411
I don't doubt your previous experience; just don't "screw-me-over" for what I had learned from the www... or any "polite" iterjection from those who "knew better"... NO, I'm not "telling you better"... I accept any information that comes from those who have had (much) previous experience... Jeez!
PPrune at its best!
The "original Dart engine/propellor configuration" was intended to provide for "reverse thrust"... OK, the Argosy wasn't provided-for such a configuration, and, OK, you couldn't "power back" from any given cul-de-sac. Fine. That was the original specification... is that OK with you Mr Training Captain?
So, you are telling me, who actually flew the Argosy C.Mk.1 for 10 years (for six of which I was a training captain) that I don't know what I'm talking about just because you have a set of Dowty Rotol notes.
PPrune at its best!
The "original Dart engine/propellor configuration" was intended to provide for "reverse thrust"... OK, the Argosy wasn't provided-for such a configuration, and, OK, you couldn't "power back" from any given cul-de-sac. Fine. That was the original specification... is that OK with you Mr Training Captain?
JW411
34 Sqn was at Seletar - I expect you meant 30.
These tiffs people are having confirms what many of my pilot mates reply when asked if they use Prune - 'NO way -Too much invective'!
There was a post asking about NVGs, I asked No1 son,ex ETPS Principal Tutor and somewhat of an expert on the subject,to respond and he said ' No,I can't stand the misery on the site'.
These tiffs people are having confirms what many of my pilot mates reply when asked if they use Prune - 'NO way -Too much invective'!
There was a post asking about NVGs, I asked No1 son,ex ETPS Principal Tutor and somewhat of an expert on the subject,to respond and he said ' No,I can't stand the misery on the site'.
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Does that suggest a pounds/kilos cock up?
Just like Mrs BS's 60 kg suitcase.
We always seemed to have a "hangar queen" in Aden. It was usually up on jacks in the corner and robbed for spares. Eventually the time would come to fly it back to UK for heavy maintenance so just about enough bits would be put back on again for the ferry flight.
One such ferry flight showed how resilient the Dart engine was. (I think the captain was Ted D). They got as far as Sharjah on the first day. Now not every station had a stock of Dart engine oil so the flight engineers normally took enough tins of the stuff to get them to the other end.
On arrival at Sharjah, the chiefie said that they might not have any oil but he would have a look. The F/E told him to use some of his stock if it proved necessary. Next morning, the F/E's stock of oil was still intact and the F700 showed that all engines had been topped-up so it was assumed that the ground crew had found some after all.
They then got airborne and headed north across the mountains of Iran. On arrival at Tehran, the F/E went up his ladder to check the engine oil levels. When he took the first oil cap off, a black foaming volcano of oil came gushing out. This phenomenon was repeated three more times.
Further investigation revealed that although his stock of engine oil was still intact, his supply of Racasan (toilet fluid) had been considerably depleted! All four engines now contained Racasan.
The Rolls Royce man in Bahrain (Kenny Rogers - I think) and a team were flown to Tehran. All four engines were purged a couple of times and all filters etc were changed. After an engine run it was decided that absolutely no damage had been caused and the ferry flight to UK was completed without further incident.
One such ferry flight showed how resilient the Dart engine was. (I think the captain was Ted D). They got as far as Sharjah on the first day. Now not every station had a stock of Dart engine oil so the flight engineers normally took enough tins of the stuff to get them to the other end.
On arrival at Sharjah, the chiefie said that they might not have any oil but he would have a look. The F/E told him to use some of his stock if it proved necessary. Next morning, the F/E's stock of oil was still intact and the F700 showed that all engines had been topped-up so it was assumed that the ground crew had found some after all.
They then got airborne and headed north across the mountains of Iran. On arrival at Tehran, the F/E went up his ladder to check the engine oil levels. When he took the first oil cap off, a black foaming volcano of oil came gushing out. This phenomenon was repeated three more times.
Further investigation revealed that although his stock of engine oil was still intact, his supply of Racasan (toilet fluid) had been considerably depleted! All four engines now contained Racasan.
The Rolls Royce man in Bahrain (Kenny Rogers - I think) and a team were flown to Tehran. All four engines were purged a couple of times and all filters etc were changed. After an engine run it was decided that absolutely no damage had been caused and the ferry flight to UK was completed without further incident.
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Ferry flights to UK
JW411,
Seems an odd way to ferry to the UK, we used to go
K'Sar
Wadi Halfa (or sometimes Khartoum or Addis Abbaba if diplomatic stuff for delivery)
El Adem
Luqa
Istres
Benson
& reverse after servicings at least up to the end of 1964 when they were then heavy serviced either at K'Sar or Bahrein.
Also the Dart used to run on OX38 oil, a standard gas turbine oil available everywhere & used by 99% of military RR engines ?, puzzled,
Not trying to be pendantic but just curious how things may have changed over the years of Argosy ops, Regards, PH.
Seems an odd way to ferry to the UK, we used to go
K'Sar
Wadi Halfa (or sometimes Khartoum or Addis Abbaba if diplomatic stuff for delivery)
El Adem
Luqa
Istres
Benson
& reverse after servicings at least up to the end of 1964 when they were then heavy serviced either at K'Sar or Bahrein.
Also the Dart used to run on OX38 oil, a standard gas turbine oil available everywhere & used by 99% of military RR engines ?, puzzled,
Not trying to be pendantic but just curious how things may have changed over the years of Argosy ops, Regards, PH.
The last Aden-UK ferry I did in July 1966, routed via Jeddah, El Adem, Luqa (n/s), Benson. Mrs brakedwell & small son were on board, plus 2 indulgence WRAFs and 4 cars. The WRAFs reckoned the Peugeot 404 had the best sound insulation.