The "Whistling wheelbarrow"
zetec 2:
Well, the other way that we used to go was via Bahrain then over Kuwait, south of Baghdad, south of Damascus and then over Lebanon to Akrotiri.
I did that route several times but the biggest problem was that of diplomatic clearance. It went something like this; the Iraqi clearance was valid for four days or so but you had to make the entry and exit points plus or minus 2 hours.
The Syrian clearance was for a 48 hour period and the Lebanese clearance was for 24 hours only.
So if you took more than a 2 hour delay from Bahrain, then you couldn't meet the Iraqi requirement and so had to delay for 24 hours which then meant that the Lebanese clearance had expired and had to be applied for again by which time the Syrian clearance had expired and so it went on and on!
I have also gone via Khartoum and round Nasser's Corner to El Adem. I can't remember off the top of my head why we stopped going that way. By the way, Wadi Halfa disappeared under water when the Aswan High Dam came into use.
I suppose that although the CENTO route was a long way round, it was always open and no clearances were required.
I'm sure you are right about OX38 oil but not all stations always had it in stock. A bit like beer really, Salalah ran out of beer one weekend and I had to do an emergency resupply on the Sunday morning from Bahrain. It was of such importance that we even had Saudi overflight clearanc so didn't have to go round Fahud.
We had 4 pallets loaded with Amstel and 4 pallets loaded with Carlsberg. The navigator worked out that if we went down in the Empty Quarter, we would not survive. It went something like this, first day you had to drink 8 beers to meet your fluid requirement. Now it takes a pint of water to process an ounce of alcohol so next day you had to drink 20 beers and so it was that you died on the fourth day with a smile on your face!
Well, the other way that we used to go was via Bahrain then over Kuwait, south of Baghdad, south of Damascus and then over Lebanon to Akrotiri.
I did that route several times but the biggest problem was that of diplomatic clearance. It went something like this; the Iraqi clearance was valid for four days or so but you had to make the entry and exit points plus or minus 2 hours.
The Syrian clearance was for a 48 hour period and the Lebanese clearance was for 24 hours only.
So if you took more than a 2 hour delay from Bahrain, then you couldn't meet the Iraqi requirement and so had to delay for 24 hours which then meant that the Lebanese clearance had expired and had to be applied for again by which time the Syrian clearance had expired and so it went on and on!
I have also gone via Khartoum and round Nasser's Corner to El Adem. I can't remember off the top of my head why we stopped going that way. By the way, Wadi Halfa disappeared under water when the Aswan High Dam came into use.
I suppose that although the CENTO route was a long way round, it was always open and no clearances were required.
I'm sure you are right about OX38 oil but not all stations always had it in stock. A bit like beer really, Salalah ran out of beer one weekend and I had to do an emergency resupply on the Sunday morning from Bahrain. It was of such importance that we even had Saudi overflight clearanc so didn't have to go round Fahud.
We had 4 pallets loaded with Amstel and 4 pallets loaded with Carlsberg. The navigator worked out that if we went down in the Empty Quarter, we would not survive. It went something like this, first day you had to drink 8 beers to meet your fluid requirement. Now it takes a pint of water to process an ounce of alcohol so next day you had to drink 20 beers and so it was that you died on the fourth day with a smile on your face!
Last edited by JW411; 10th Feb 2011 at 16:46.
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Reading all the threads my mind goes back to those heady days [late 60s 70s]parked outside the frieght sheds in Heathrow central removing a big oval panel on top of the wing and clambering inside the wing to change the [if my memory is correct ] voltage control box which in that confind space seemed to weigh a ton and the struggle to get out again, it always seemed to be raining and as we were devoid of wet weather gear getting very wet . .after looking in the mirror I now know I'd never make it. thinks did the RAF ones have landing /taxi lights ?2 landings and our filaments were shaken to bits we had plenty of spares but the RAF?
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The Argosy
JW411.
Thanks for the info re routing, how things change, the comment about Wadi Halfa being underwater causes some amusement, hated the place due to having to lug fuel hoses, use a "donkey engine" to pump fuel, real self help service station, most unsociable place this side of Hades !, come to think of it - it used to be as hot & uncomfortable as Hades.
Avionics Guy:
Landing /taxi lamps , if remember correctly they were on the main undercarriage legs just above the refuelling points & also outboard near the wing tips on the mainplanes.
PH.
Thanks for the info re routing, how things change, the comment about Wadi Halfa being underwater causes some amusement, hated the place due to having to lug fuel hoses, use a "donkey engine" to pump fuel, real self help service station, most unsociable place this side of Hades !, come to think of it - it used to be as hot & uncomfortable as Hades.
Avionics Guy:
Landing /taxi lamps , if remember correctly they were on the main undercarriage legs just above the refuelling points & also outboard near the wing tips on the mainplanes.
PH.
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Civil & Military Argosy
Sorry Aviation Type, got you wrong ! called you "Guy",
Does any one have an answer as to why the civil variant had huge wing fences outboard of the 1 & 4 engines whereas the military variant didn't ?, didn't the civil variant drive have enough aileron control, was that the reason ?.
Rgds, PH.
Does any one have an answer as to why the civil variant had huge wing fences outboard of the 1 & 4 engines whereas the military variant didn't ?, didn't the civil variant drive have enough aileron control, was that the reason ?.
Rgds, PH.
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The act of sending a squadron of Javelins and a mobile defence radar to Zambia achieved the square root of FA.
I used to fly with one of the ex Javelin pilots so I believe this to be a true story.
Most of the aircrew on Khormaksar based squadrons which would have been involved were assembled in a hangar and asked if they were prepared to take action against Ian Smith's illegal regime. The answer was a unanimous no. I seem to remember a number of Canberra crews from Cyprus were also present. 105 Argosies would have been used to drop paras to secure strategic rail and road points, then resupply them. In the event my contribution to the cock-up was to fly two large generators, delivered by Ace Freighters, from Francistown in Bechuanaland to Lusaka to power Harold Wilson's folly- a propoganda radio station that was beamed at Rhodesia.
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The act of sending a squadron of Javelins
Speedbird 48:
Your story about the difficulties you encountered loading a Bristol Hercules on to an Argosy has had me puzzled for several days.
I took a Bristol Centaurus engine from Bahrain to Jeddah on 08 November 1967in XP412 to rescue Dick Barton and crew who had lobbed into Jeddah while ferrying an 84 Squadron Beverley back to UK. Perhaps the loaders in Bahrain were better at it than your lot for the Centaurus was a much bigger engine.
When we got to Jeddah, we were a bit surprised to see that the Beverley was covered in graffiti. The aircraft was "U" - Uniform and this had been modified to "U/K OR BUST". There were several other symbols and messages about the fuselage. The old girl was headed for scrapping at Bicester and was only planned to land at RAF airfields en route so the lads in Khormaksar had gone mad with the paint brush.
It certainly raised a few eyebrows in Jeddah and the Air Attache wanted it out of there pronto.
Your story about the difficulties you encountered loading a Bristol Hercules on to an Argosy has had me puzzled for several days.
I took a Bristol Centaurus engine from Bahrain to Jeddah on 08 November 1967in XP412 to rescue Dick Barton and crew who had lobbed into Jeddah while ferrying an 84 Squadron Beverley back to UK. Perhaps the loaders in Bahrain were better at it than your lot for the Centaurus was a much bigger engine.
When we got to Jeddah, we were a bit surprised to see that the Beverley was covered in graffiti. The aircraft was "U" - Uniform and this had been modified to "U/K OR BUST". There were several other symbols and messages about the fuselage. The old girl was headed for scrapping at Bicester and was only planned to land at RAF airfields en route so the lads in Khormaksar had gone mad with the paint brush.
It certainly raised a few eyebrows in Jeddah and the Air Attache wanted it out of there pronto.
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Yes ZTECH2 those were the darling lamps on the drag stay the only redeeming thing about the blasted things were they could be changed without the use of steps about the only thing that could .A abiding memory was for a rapid turn round the plane was unloaded and loaded at the same time the last pallet was unloaded and the truck driven away at the rear the next cargo pallet was loaded at the front with a mighty heave it shot down the back straight out of the rear the stops were still down [red faces all round,hysterics from engineering]
Of course, that was the daftest thing about the military Argosy (there were others) and I mean the decision to rivet up the opening front of the fuselage. This used to cause real hassle when flying PCF (Passenger cum Freight) flights. The rules were (quite rightly) that freight had to travel in front with the passengers behind.
This meant that the freight had to be loaded and then the passenger seats installed behind the feight. I can remember, for example, arriving in Luqa with an Avon engine for a u/s Canberra. So all the passenger seats had to come out, the Avon extracted, and then the passenger seats re-installed.
There was a company in the USA called Riddle and they bought half a dozen of the first civilian Argosys. They had a US military contract under the Logair scheme which meant that cargo was moved around USAF bases (mainly on the east coast) on a very strict schedule with huge penalties for not being on time.
The way it worked was this; the outbound load of eight pallets was loaded on to a special truck equipped with a hydraulic ram. The Argosy arrived and the front and the back of the fuselage was opened up. Departing load was positioned at the rear. An empty truck was postioned at the front. Pallet locks were undone and rear truck pushed eight pallets in the back and the existing eight pallets exited the front on to the empty truck.
This sort of concept was unheard of in mediaeval Europe at the time. Riddle were achieving 8 minute turnrounds (eat your heart out Michael O'Leary).
So what did our lords and masters do? They promptly riveted up the front of the fuselage!
This meant that the freight had to be loaded and then the passenger seats installed behind the feight. I can remember, for example, arriving in Luqa with an Avon engine for a u/s Canberra. So all the passenger seats had to come out, the Avon extracted, and then the passenger seats re-installed.
There was a company in the USA called Riddle and they bought half a dozen of the first civilian Argosys. They had a US military contract under the Logair scheme which meant that cargo was moved around USAF bases (mainly on the east coast) on a very strict schedule with huge penalties for not being on time.
The way it worked was this; the outbound load of eight pallets was loaded on to a special truck equipped with a hydraulic ram. The Argosy arrived and the front and the back of the fuselage was opened up. Departing load was positioned at the rear. An empty truck was postioned at the front. Pallet locks were undone and rear truck pushed eight pallets in the back and the existing eight pallets exited the front on to the empty truck.
This sort of concept was unheard of in mediaeval Europe at the time. Riddle were achieving 8 minute turnrounds (eat your heart out Michael O'Leary).
So what did our lords and masters do? They promptly riveted up the front of the fuselage!
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Hi JW411,
The engine was on a stand and had cowlings as well. The engine we blew in Guterslow had blown a hole in the original cowls.
But, we tried to load it accessory end first, and the stand hit the roof in the spar area. Then we turned it around and by removing cowlings and part of the ignition harness it would "just" fit under the spar. We had also removed the wheels from the stand.
I know nothing much about the Whistling Tit, but the loadie was makiing a big issue of the CofG. Maybe he was in error?? The rest of the thing was empty so we could have found some sandbags to balance the thing I suppose.
Speedbird48
The engine was on a stand and had cowlings as well. The engine we blew in Guterslow had blown a hole in the original cowls.
But, we tried to load it accessory end first, and the stand hit the roof in the spar area. Then we turned it around and by removing cowlings and part of the ignition harness it would "just" fit under the spar. We had also removed the wheels from the stand.
I know nothing much about the Whistling Tit, but the loadie was makiing a big issue of the CofG. Maybe he was in error?? The rest of the thing was empty so we could have found some sandbags to balance the thing I suppose.
Speedbird48
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Chris, I regret to tell you that you will wait till the cows come home for that book. I ordered a copy months ago, on Treadders' recommendation, and the said Amazon have stopped bothering to apologise for non-delivery! They haven't taken my money, to be fair to them.
This is a pity because the late Ken Fitzroy was instrumental in getting me my first commercial flying job.
I believe the Argosy was known as 'Noddy' in BEA because it had a perceptible flight-deck shimmy in the cruise. It was something to do with that cargo floor, I think.
This is a pity because the late Ken Fitzroy was instrumental in getting me my first commercial flying job.
I believe the Argosy was known as 'Noddy' in BEA because it had a perceptible flight-deck shimmy in the cruise. It was something to do with that cargo floor, I think.
Speedbird 48:
Thanks for that; the loadmaster that day couldn't have been very bright. (Most of them were great guys). I'm sure the problem could have been easily sorted by putting some ballast in the front.
I can remember taking a large triangular jack to Nairobi for a Shackleton which had to have a wheel change. Those of you familiar with the Argosy will remember that we carried two ramps which were attached to the bottom clamshell door for loading and unloading.
The unloading of the jack seemed to be taking an age so I went back to look. To my horror, our man had one leg on each ramp and the third leg supported by a plank of wood hovering in space between the two ramps with each end of the plank on top of an inverted bit of roller-conveyor. The plank was bowing ominously and looked set to snap. The large jack falling between the two ramps would have caused unthinkable damage.
"Why are you doing it this way", said I. "It's the only way to do it" said he "the jack has three legs and we only have two ramps".
"So why don't you turn the jack round a bit and so that two legs can go down one ramp and the third leg goes down the other", said I.
The silence was deafening!
Thanks for that; the loadmaster that day couldn't have been very bright. (Most of them were great guys). I'm sure the problem could have been easily sorted by putting some ballast in the front.
I can remember taking a large triangular jack to Nairobi for a Shackleton which had to have a wheel change. Those of you familiar with the Argosy will remember that we carried two ramps which were attached to the bottom clamshell door for loading and unloading.
The unloading of the jack seemed to be taking an age so I went back to look. To my horror, our man had one leg on each ramp and the third leg supported by a plank of wood hovering in space between the two ramps with each end of the plank on top of an inverted bit of roller-conveyor. The plank was bowing ominously and looked set to snap. The large jack falling between the two ramps would have caused unthinkable damage.
"Why are you doing it this way", said I. "It's the only way to do it" said he "the jack has three legs and we only have two ramps".
"So why don't you turn the jack round a bit and so that two legs can go down one ramp and the third leg goes down the other", said I.
The silence was deafening!
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No Time on the Ground
Thanks Rory, it would appear that the renewed interest has caused the publishers to do a small run, and I've bagged the last one!
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Chaps, very glad you have managed to get a copy! Having originally transcribed some of the chapters for "Fighter Log", I had a hard time on one occasion convincing Ken over the phone that it was anything but dry. One of nature's Gentlemen! And, yes, I think Argosy = Noddy in the book!