Threat to the Shuttleworth Collection
Jig Peter:
In my book, airfields are military aerodromes, airports are aerodromes from whence people tubes ply their commercial air transport business.
And 'twas only when I started learning aviation law for my ATPL that I learned the difference between an aeroplane and an aircraft!
Back to Shuttleworth; I would hate to think that any suspicion would be raised against anyone in particular without clear evidence and assume that any recent 'falling out' is simply a mere coincidence.
In my book, airfields are military aerodromes, airports are aerodromes from whence people tubes ply their commercial air transport business.
And 'twas only when I started learning aviation law for my ATPL that I learned the difference between an aeroplane and an aircraft!
Back to Shuttleworth; I would hate to think that any suspicion would be raised against anyone in particular without clear evidence and assume that any recent 'falling out' is simply a mere coincidence.
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@ BEagle ...
Thanks, as always, for clearing up my pit-nicker's query ...
Anent the "Aircraft/Aeroplane" difference, I must have lmissed that bit when I "did" AvLaw for my (unused) ATPL.
Looking forward to reading more of your constant contributions to Pruners' forums
Regards and respect ...
JP
(Edited for undotted "i" ... JP)
Anent the "Aircraft/Aeroplane" difference, I must have lmissed that bit when I "did" AvLaw for my (unused) ATPL.
Looking forward to reading more of your constant contributions to Pruners' forums
Regards and respect ...
JP
(Edited for undotted "i" ... JP)
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Just to nit pic a bit more. In the days of the old cat board for the light blue ATC the words "Airfield" and " Aerodrome" seemed to change with each new C.O. I well remember that one year it was definately airfield and next year it could well be aerodrome. Sorry to be be it off topic.
Still thinking fondly of Shuttleworth. Hoping all comes out well
Still thinking fondly of Shuttleworth. Hoping all comes out well
Well, I hope the police are taking this very seriously. I had my hangar burned down in 1970 by a nutter who just had to have a fire on the anniversary of the day when his wife had bogged off and left him.
He actually had absolutely nothing to do with the club or any of the members or even aviation in general.
We lost all of our aircraft and eight years of hard graft that night. Luckily we were properly insured but it hurt like hell and no amount of money was ever able to put back what we lost.
He actually had absolutely nothing to do with the club or any of the members or even aviation in general.
We lost all of our aircraft and eight years of hard graft that night. Luckily we were properly insured but it hurt like hell and no amount of money was ever able to put back what we lost.
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To oxenos,
Very sorry to have upset you, but I think you misunderstand. I have no objection to having insurance, or being asked to prove it. I would be more than happy to get it if that is the official policy of Shuttleworth. However, the chap who was stopping people flying on that day was NOT a Shuttleworth official, and could not show any ID whatsoever, which is why I say it was disturbing.
I have not been able to get an answer from Shuttleworth on whether it is their policy that all flyers at their model flying days must be BMFA insured (I have asked them), and would still like to get an authoritive answer on this, if only to find out who this guy was.
My boy, who is 7 years old, loves to build simple balsa rubber powered kits no bigger than 16 inches span, most are smaller, and it is a series of these that he was flying on that day. He enjoys building them, flying them, and fixing them when they are broken.
However, as you have requested oxenos, and as a result of that most hostile character on that day, we will not return to Old Warden to fly model aeroplanes at any time in the future.
Very sorry to have upset you, but I think you misunderstand. I have no objection to having insurance, or being asked to prove it. I would be more than happy to get it if that is the official policy of Shuttleworth. However, the chap who was stopping people flying on that day was NOT a Shuttleworth official, and could not show any ID whatsoever, which is why I say it was disturbing.
I have not been able to get an answer from Shuttleworth on whether it is their policy that all flyers at their model flying days must be BMFA insured (I have asked them), and would still like to get an authoritive answer on this, if only to find out who this guy was.
My boy, who is 7 years old, loves to build simple balsa rubber powered kits no bigger than 16 inches span, most are smaller, and it is a series of these that he was flying on that day. He enjoys building them, flying them, and fixing them when they are broken.
However, as you have requested oxenos, and as a result of that most hostile character on that day, we will not return to Old Warden to fly model aeroplanes at any time in the future.
If I was at a model meet at Old Warden, or anywhere else, and a "jobsworth" started asking to see people's BMFA insurance, while refusing to identify himself, I would tell him in no uncertain terms, to go forth and multiply!
How did this man stop people flying?
Its also occured to me that this person could well be the same one who Shuttleworth are looking for......Unless the man concerned is prepared to step forward and identify himself, and his connection with Old Warden!(or the BMFA!)
How did this man stop people flying?
Its also occured to me that this person could well be the same one who Shuttleworth are looking for......Unless the man concerned is prepared to step forward and identify himself, and his connection with Old Warden!(or the BMFA!)
Model Aircraft Insurance
For the record, it is, or certainly was, possible to be covered with third party insurance for model aircraft without being a BMFA member.
The Model Aviators Association offered cover, as do/did many insurers as part of house insurance policies. I even phoned one insurance company, when insured with them, to clarify what limitaions there might be on weight/size etc. as the policy documentsdescribed the cover given but didn't specify limits. Their response was 'anything which you don't fly in yourself''
, which gave a fair bit of latitude, like "where can I get a Global Hawk?'
I should add, this is not to knock the BMFA insurance, and for the record, 'A' & 'B' certificates only apply to radio controlled models. They're totally irrelevant for the free-flight models that doppleganger flies.
Why let some jumped up t*ss*r with no authority put you off flying at Old Warden?
Anyone who has flown free-flight models will know that tree landings and landing damage are par for the course, I presume Oxenos did not twig that it was free-flight models that doppelganger and his son were flying.
BTW Did anyone else fly an Ebenezer on Christmas Day? It's bit of a tradition down here!
The Model Aviators Association offered cover, as do/did many insurers as part of house insurance policies. I even phoned one insurance company, when insured with them, to clarify what limitaions there might be on weight/size etc. as the policy documentsdescribed the cover given but didn't specify limits. Their response was 'anything which you don't fly in yourself''
, which gave a fair bit of latitude, like "where can I get a Global Hawk?'I should add, this is not to knock the BMFA insurance, and for the record, 'A' & 'B' certificates only apply to radio controlled models. They're totally irrelevant for the free-flight models that doppleganger flies.
However, the chap who was stopping people flying on that day was NOT a Shuttleworth official, and could not show any ID whatsoever, which is why I say it was disturbing.
Anyone who has flown free-flight models will know that tree landings and landing damage are par for the course, I presume Oxenos did not twig that it was free-flight models that doppelganger and his son were flying.
BTW Did anyone else fly an Ebenezer on Christmas Day? It's bit of a tradition down here!
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It appears that I have stumbled into a political arena that I have not experienced before, nor had anticipated - that is for some model flyers, the assumption that power flying/RC is the only real form of model flying.
It is true that I did not explain that my son flies small free-flights. The first flight of his first ever electric model (a tiny model of a powered-glider, just 8-inch span powered by a 30-second condenser) was lost on that day when it was picked up by a thermal. To a 7-year-old this is pure magic (but the material loss was more on the mind of his dad). Other rubber powered models suffered damaged landing gear etc. as is inevitable given the amount of flying we did, and that free-flights have to go through a precarious "trimming" stage.
But for this Oxenus has told us to "grow-up" and that "Old Warden does not need people like us". And bluesilk has told us to "improve building/flying skills or stay away".
All the other free-flighters that we met were extremely friendly and patient to explain to my son how their wonderful machines worked, and were captured by his enthusiasm for the sport (the timed tailplane-pop-up devices were his particular intrigue).
But as in any walk of life, it takes only one bully to shatter an experience.
At no time have I said that I have an opposition to purchasing insurance, but only that if it is Shuttleworth policy, that this should be made clear in their literature.
Neither was I aware that the Old Warden model flying days were really only for the seasoned and experienced modellers. Regardless of the one guy telling people they could not fly on the day, as relative newcomers to the sport, Oxenos and bluesilk have each made it quite clear we are not welcome at Old Warden.
For you two, and the author of the letters which are the subject of this thread, we will indeed stay away from future Old Warden's model flying days. However, I doubt you will be as successful in erasing my lads enthusiasm for small free-flights, even for your belief that it is kid's-stuff.
It is true that I did not explain that my son flies small free-flights. The first flight of his first ever electric model (a tiny model of a powered-glider, just 8-inch span powered by a 30-second condenser) was lost on that day when it was picked up by a thermal. To a 7-year-old this is pure magic (but the material loss was more on the mind of his dad). Other rubber powered models suffered damaged landing gear etc. as is inevitable given the amount of flying we did, and that free-flights have to go through a precarious "trimming" stage.
But for this Oxenus has told us to "grow-up" and that "Old Warden does not need people like us". And bluesilk has told us to "improve building/flying skills or stay away".
All the other free-flighters that we met were extremely friendly and patient to explain to my son how their wonderful machines worked, and were captured by his enthusiasm for the sport (the timed tailplane-pop-up devices were his particular intrigue).
But as in any walk of life, it takes only one bully to shatter an experience.
At no time have I said that I have an opposition to purchasing insurance, but only that if it is Shuttleworth policy, that this should be made clear in their literature.
Neither was I aware that the Old Warden model flying days were really only for the seasoned and experienced modellers. Regardless of the one guy telling people they could not fly on the day, as relative newcomers to the sport, Oxenos and bluesilk have each made it quite clear we are not welcome at Old Warden.
For you two, and the author of the letters which are the subject of this thread, we will indeed stay away from future Old Warden's model flying days. However, I doubt you will be as successful in erasing my lads enthusiasm for small free-flights, even for your belief that it is kid's-stuff.
Doppleganger,
A misunderstanding. It was not apparent that you were attending a free-flight day, and I had visions of some idiot driving a 1/4 scale Lancaster into the crowd and thinking it was great fun.
Unfortunately the hobby has a lunatic fringe who have no regard for safety, insurance or anything ( or anyone ) else. They can hardly be rated as modellers - they just buy big boy-toys, and buy another when they wreck the first. Clearly you are not one of them and I apologize for lumping you in with them
I cannot think that the person checking BMFA membership could be the threatening letter writer. He would hardly have approved of the BMFA. I am surprised that you have not heard from the Trust - be interesting to know if they do check up on insurance or if it was an over officious BMFA member.
Good model flying,
O Xenos
A misunderstanding. It was not apparent that you were attending a free-flight day, and I had visions of some idiot driving a 1/4 scale Lancaster into the crowd and thinking it was great fun.
Unfortunately the hobby has a lunatic fringe who have no regard for safety, insurance or anything ( or anyone ) else. They can hardly be rated as modellers - they just buy big boy-toys, and buy another when they wreck the first. Clearly you are not one of them and I apologize for lumping you in with them
I cannot think that the person checking BMFA membership could be the threatening letter writer. He would hardly have approved of the BMFA. I am surprised that you have not heard from the Trust - be interesting to know if they do check up on insurance or if it was an over officious BMFA member.
Good model flying,
O Xenos
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This threat is indeed disturbing; a thought has just struck me; while we aviation enthusiasts are rightly concerned about the unique & fragile nature of the full-size collection, this idiot's beef seems restricted to model flying.
I know modern R/C transmitters are a lot more handy, frequency wise, than earlier types, but I wonder if this berk might try, with a bit of experimentation with his own controller to interfere with a model in flight ?
Should be possible to spot such a character, probably not standing around but in a car tailgate / van etc...
In the wrong circumstances this might lead to a lot worse than a pranged model, which the idiot would presumably count as a 'result'.
I know modern R/C transmitters are a lot more handy, frequency wise, than earlier types, but I wonder if this berk might try, with a bit of experimentation with his own controller to interfere with a model in flight ?
Should be possible to spot such a character, probably not standing around but in a car tailgate / van etc...
In the wrong circumstances this might lead to a lot worse than a pranged model, which the idiot would presumably count as a 'result'.
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Friends of mine live close to a model aircraft field - about 300 yards from the runway. The noise which punctuates our Sunday lunch is nothing more than a background buzz and can hardly be described as an incredible racket and far less irritating than the local kids on their 50cc mopeds with sawn off silencers.
We rather enjoy seeing the little aircraft and often walk over to the field to chat to the flyers, who are a friendly lot, if somewhat 'geeky' in some ways, and we are invariably asked to share a drink with them, or we take over a thermos of tea for them on a cold day, which is always appreciated.
I do feel that they should be insured against third party damage though, one of those craft coming down and hitting a car, or worse, a child, could cause damage and injury. Not to mention the risk of a collision between two models - ouch!
Good luck to the Shuttleworth flyers, I hope the person who is behind this is outed and ..... I know someone who is quite handy with a cricket bat ...!
We rather enjoy seeing the little aircraft and often walk over to the field to chat to the flyers, who are a friendly lot, if somewhat 'geeky' in some ways, and we are invariably asked to share a drink with them, or we take over a thermos of tea for them on a cold day, which is always appreciated.
I do feel that they should be insured against third party damage though, one of those craft coming down and hitting a car, or worse, a child, could cause damage and injury. Not to mention the risk of a collision between two models - ouch!
Good luck to the Shuttleworth flyers, I hope the person who is behind this is outed and ..... I know someone who is quite handy with a cricket bat ...!
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Insurance is a must. It costs little and should be compulsory. The ONLY way it can be confirmed or vetted is for the BMFA to issue an ID card that MUST be worn as a badge (NOT around the neck for obvious reasons) when, in effect, all members vet each other. All model flying sites are usually run under the auspices of a local club and they would, I am sure, be happy to monitor it.
A life or an injury to person or property can be VERY expensive and way outside one's normal bank balance, so it is essential. Particularly in this case.
Whether THT would arrange for it I rather have my doubts - quite a few in fact. Still, it is up to him to state OW position.
A life or an injury to person or property can be VERY expensive and way outside one's normal bank balance, so it is essential. Particularly in this case.
Whether THT would arrange for it I rather have my doubts - quite a few in fact. Still, it is up to him to state OW position.
I agree with you PP!
Both on the need for insurance - any out of control model can cause a problem - and on the likelihood of OW's position being clearly stated.
As for Haig-Thomas, after reading his distasteful remarks in the last edition of the magazine, my opinion of him has certainly changed.......
Both on the need for insurance - any out of control model can cause a problem - and on the likelihood of OW's position being clearly stated.
As for Haig-Thomas, after reading his distasteful remarks in the last edition of the magazine, my opinion of him has certainly changed.......
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I agree wholeheartedly with insurance - I for one don't fancy my film-star ( Marty Feldman ) type looks being re-arranged by a hit from a churning prop', and model helicopters have awful throat-slitting potential...
BTW the term ' aerodrome ' is by no means as archaic as one might first think ( though the fact the Shuttleworth Collection is by nature old may have led the local nut to think in those terms; another clue as to his knowledge )?
I grew up and later worked at Dunsfold Aerodrome West Sussex, built ( by the Canadians ) in 1942.
Though among ourselves it may have been casually referred to as ' the 'field ' etc, it was to 2000 and to my mind still is most definitely Dunsfold Aerodrome.
I suspect RAF stations gradually became ' airfields ' as it sounds more trendy and each staish or above has to be seen to make a change...
If and when there is an outcome to this, I am sure I speak for others when I say I'd love to read about it here !
May be a tad embarassing in the short term I suspect.
Meanwhile, just in case, I trust suitable precautions are being taken around the real aeroplanes - if it was nearer I'd volunteer for the odd night watch; 'nuff said.
BTW the term ' aerodrome ' is by no means as archaic as one might first think ( though the fact the Shuttleworth Collection is by nature old may have led the local nut to think in those terms; another clue as to his knowledge )?
I grew up and later worked at Dunsfold Aerodrome West Sussex, built ( by the Canadians ) in 1942.
Though among ourselves it may have been casually referred to as ' the 'field ' etc, it was to 2000 and to my mind still is most definitely Dunsfold Aerodrome.
I suspect RAF stations gradually became ' airfields ' as it sounds more trendy and each staish or above has to be seen to make a change...
If and when there is an outcome to this, I am sure I speak for others when I say I'd love to read about it here !
May be a tad embarassing in the short term I suspect.
Meanwhile, just in case, I trust suitable precautions are being taken around the real aeroplanes - if it was nearer I'd volunteer for the odd night watch; 'nuff said.
An 'aerodrome' is of course a flying machine. As stated here by F.W. Lanchester in Flight, Volume 1 issue 1.
biplane | 1909 | 0011 | Flight Archive
Although I'm prepared to go along with the viewpoint that an 'airfield' is the open part of an aerodrome, but will probably only ever use the term 'airfield'. On the other hand, an 'airport', to me, must have regular scheduled flights to other locations to qualify as such.
biplane | 1909 | 0011 | Flight Archive
WHAT IS AN AERODROME?
SIR,—I regret to see that the misuse of the word "aerodrome"
is receiving your support in your columns.
This word was invented by Langley and applied by him as
meaning a flying machine of the " aeroplane " type ; it is in this
signification quite regular in its definition, and at the present time
constitutes a part of the English language (see recent editions of
Webster's and other dictionaries).
I suppose because a hippodrome is a big open space (or horses,
you think that an aerodrome should be a big open space for flying
machines (or rather, I should say for air), but as this is not the
signification, the idea is not well founded......
.....Excuse my bluntness, but do not let us have a dozen meanings to
one word, one meaning is enough if that is the right one.
Yours faithfully,
F. W". LANCHESTER
SIR,—I regret to see that the misuse of the word "aerodrome"
is receiving your support in your columns.
This word was invented by Langley and applied by him as
meaning a flying machine of the " aeroplane " type ; it is in this
signification quite regular in its definition, and at the present time
constitutes a part of the English language (see recent editions of
Webster's and other dictionaries).
I suppose because a hippodrome is a big open space (or horses,
you think that an aerodrome should be a big open space for flying
machines (or rather, I should say for air), but as this is not the
signification, the idea is not well founded......
.....Excuse my bluntness, but do not let us have a dozen meanings to
one word, one meaning is enough if that is the right one.
Yours faithfully,
F. W". LANCHESTER
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If you find the Modelair 2009 statement (they appear to organise the model flying days at OW) they state that all model "operators" must have BMFA insurance.
Back to the initial topic, is there any news on the threat to OW?
