Vanguard
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vanguard
Happen to have a great video on the final years of both the Viscount (ParcelForce) and the Vanguard. I wish I was from a slightly earlier time (!) the turbine I fly now is hardly the same thing..... one thing I have noticed in trying to find stuff on the Vanguard is how little there seems to be. I guess it was only in service a relatively short time with few airframes. Anyone here have any stories they might be able to tell about flying those wonderful birds?
I seem to notice that there are hardly any (if any at all) photos of the Vanguard passenger interior. Anybody have some pics they'd like to share or some links to find any?
I seem to notice that there are hardly any (if any at all) photos of the Vanguard passenger interior. Anybody have some pics they'd like to share or some links to find any?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: It wasn't me, I wasn't there, wrong country ;-)
Age: 79
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guardsvan in BEA
You may want to try British Airways Museum Collection No interiors, but if you send them a wizzer they may point you in the right direction
A Runyonesque Character
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The South of France ... Not
Age: 74
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
My pals among the BEA General Apprentices in the late 1960s had a song about a 'dirty old Vanguard'. Anybody remember it?
Vanguard memories
I can remember flying on a Vanguard a few times in the late 60s.
Pa worked for BEA and was elligible for cheap flights, so on two occasions we headed off to Malta for the Summer hols. This was 1967 and 1968, so just before the massive increase in 'bucket-n-spade' flights to the Costas.
In those days BEA had 4 flights a day to Malta, all operated non-stop by Vanguards. We were on the night flight, leaving Heathrow at about midnight, for a 4-hour flight to the Med on a Vanguard.
I remember that we travelled as a family, so we were allocated seats together ... and it was a block of seats around a table ... three seats facing forward, and three seats facing backwards. I've never seen such a seat arrangement on another aircraft (but I never flew in Viscounts, did they have them like this?).
Some memories from the flights ...
looking out of the window at the red wings.
my brother looking green and unwell throughout the flight ... as soon as the food tray was placed in front of him he immediately threw-up all over it!
the Pilot announcing over the PA as we flew past Mont Blanc, visible in the moonlight below us.
stepping out of the aircraft at 4am in Malta and feeling liked I'd been smacked in the face by a steaming towel.
The return flight was also at night. But the refuellers in Malta were on strike, so after dis-embarking the inbound passengers the aircraft flew off to Tripole for refuel, then back to Malta to pick-up passengers, then back to London. I was scared because I thought we wouldn't have enough fuel!
Pa worked for BEA and was elligible for cheap flights, so on two occasions we headed off to Malta for the Summer hols. This was 1967 and 1968, so just before the massive increase in 'bucket-n-spade' flights to the Costas.
In those days BEA had 4 flights a day to Malta, all operated non-stop by Vanguards. We were on the night flight, leaving Heathrow at about midnight, for a 4-hour flight to the Med on a Vanguard.
I remember that we travelled as a family, so we were allocated seats together ... and it was a block of seats around a table ... three seats facing forward, and three seats facing backwards. I've never seen such a seat arrangement on another aircraft (but I never flew in Viscounts, did they have them like this?).
Some memories from the flights ...
looking out of the window at the red wings.
my brother looking green and unwell throughout the flight ... as soon as the food tray was placed in front of him he immediately threw-up all over it!
the Pilot announcing over the PA as we flew past Mont Blanc, visible in the moonlight below us.
stepping out of the aircraft at 4am in Malta and feeling liked I'd been smacked in the face by a steaming towel.
The return flight was also at night. But the refuellers in Malta were on strike, so after dis-embarking the inbound passengers the aircraft flew off to Tripole for refuel, then back to Malta to pick-up passengers, then back to London. I was scared because I thought we wouldn't have enough fuel!
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bucks, UK
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's one at Brooklands
My first airline flight as a boy on a school exchange was BEA London to Paris by Comet, returning by Vanguard. Must have been early-mid 60s.
Nice a/c to fly in - loved those big windows.
My first airline flight as a boy on a school exchange was BEA London to Paris by Comet, returning by Vanguard. Must have been early-mid 60s.
Nice a/c to fly in - loved those big windows.
The Vanguard was a surprisingly noisy aircraft in the cruise. On London to Scotland they were audible overhead the Midlands cruising along at about 20,000 feet.
It was an aircraft that was immediately outclassed. BEA using them to the Continent were swept aside by all the European carriers who introduced Caravelles at the same time. In the end they had to use them just on domestics, or colonial routes like Gibraltar or Malta where there was no competition. Air Canada meanwhile were only able to run them on because they had a regulated monopoly on most of their routes.
The Tyne engine didn't have much commercial sccess compared to the Dart on the Viscount, and must have been difficult to maintain downroute.
However you can't really blame Vickers and the Government too much for not forecasting the arrival of short-haul jets, Lockheed ran into the same issue with the Electra.
It was an aircraft that was immediately outclassed. BEA using them to the Continent were swept aside by all the European carriers who introduced Caravelles at the same time. In the end they had to use them just on domestics, or colonial routes like Gibraltar or Malta where there was no competition. Air Canada meanwhile were only able to run them on because they had a regulated monopoly on most of their routes.
The Tyne engine didn't have much commercial sccess compared to the Dart on the Viscount, and must have been difficult to maintain downroute.
However you can't really blame Vickers and the Government too much for not forecasting the arrival of short-haul jets, Lockheed ran into the same issue with the Electra.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In the library
Age: 85
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vanguard interior
PropSyncOff said;-
I seem to notice that there are hardly any (if any at all) photos of the Vanguard passenger interior. Anybody have some pics they'd like to share or some links to find any?
We have a couple which we will be putting up on G-APEP at Brooklands soon & when we next update our web site www.vickersvanguardmerchantman.com I will put them on there.
merlinxx was quite correct that the B.A. museum has got some pictures, these are the one`s that we have got.
tristar500
I seem to notice that there are hardly any (if any at all) photos of the Vanguard passenger interior. Anybody have some pics they'd like to share or some links to find any?
We have a couple which we will be putting up on G-APEP at Brooklands soon & when we next update our web site www.vickersvanguardmerchantman.com I will put them on there.
merlinxx was quite correct that the B.A. museum has got some pictures, these are the one`s that we have got.
tristar500
I remember flying with BEA to Dublin as a child in several of their Vanguards, again at night and seemingly always getting caught in a lot of turbulence over the Irish Sea, it seemed to go on forever...Were they unable to climb above the weather, limited by the powerplants ? I seem to recall flying in a Merepati Nusarantha (sp ?) Vanguard in the 70's from Heathrow. Am I hallucinating ?
As an aside is that a Vanguard to be heard in the background of the Beatle's song "Back in the USSR" ? I always held it to be such, but then again maybe it was a Viscount
Regards
SHJ
As an aside is that a Vanguard to be heard in the background of the Beatle's song "Back in the USSR" ? I always held it to be such, but then again maybe it was a Viscount
Regards
SHJ
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also known to ATC as the Guard's Van.. Have a few grey hairs left from those days as they were verrrryyy slow to roll.
I flew to Malta in 1967 in a Vanguard and spent a while up-front. The flight deck was approximately the size of a football pitch with visibility to match.
I flew to Malta in 1967 in a Vanguard and spent a while up-front. The flight deck was approximately the size of a football pitch with visibility to match.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: west of the Tamar
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately I never got to fly in a Vanguard (flew in several Viscounts though) but I have memories of watching them from the observation deck on top of the Queen's Building at LHR in the 1960's. In those days, before nose-in parking, the BEA Vanguard fleet would be coming and going all day, mostly on UK domestics and certain other short European routes such as Amsterdam and Paris, until these routes went over to Trident operation. In fact the reverberating noise of the RR Tynes was a virtual constant background racket at LHR in the period 1961 to 1967.
I always much preferred the Lockheed Electra. Better-looking and wonderful engine music from those Allisons. Quieter on climb and in the cruise as well.
I always much preferred the Lockheed Electra. Better-looking and wonderful engine music from those Allisons. Quieter on climb and in the cruise as well.
Merpati Vanguard
You probably weren't hallucinating, I seem to recall that BEA sold at least one to MNA, and that it spent a few days parked at Birmingham (why I can't recall) with it's UK registration and in full Merpati scheme. I can't confirm exactly when, but around 1970 I would think.
Another poster will probably be able to confirm which airframe, and whether it actually flew for BEA in MNA colours.
Another poster will probably be able to confirm which airframe, and whether it actually flew for BEA in MNA colours.
First commercial flight in a Vanguard (VC9) GAPEB from Manchester to Heathrow Lstg5 student standby return !!! Flew back on one of the new BAC-111s - GAVMJ if I am not mistaken . 1969 or so . Those were the days. Why is aviation and flying so complicated and off-putting nowadays? Even I take the ferry from Europe to The Island instead of flying now ... sad. Vanguards ... marvellous beasts and the noise of those Tynes ... heavy metal.
Was it the engines or the props that we so noisy on the Vanguard ? The engines are twice the power of the Darts on the Viscount, the props had much more power to handle.
Well, BEA Vanguards never served Moscow, although a Merchantman freigher converion made it later when Chi-Chi the London Zoo panda was taken to the USSR for a naughty weekend with An-An, the Moscow zoo panda 
. Moscow was Comets from its inception until the time of the song. A real geek at the studios would have got a recording of an Ilyushin 18.
Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack
As an aside is that a Vanguard to be heard in the background of the Beatle's song "Back in the USSR" ? I always held it to be such, but then again maybe it was a Viscount
. Moscow was Comets from its inception until the time of the song. A real geek at the studios would have got a recording of an Ilyushin 18.
A real geek at the studios would have got a recording of an Ilyushin 18.
YouTube - The Beatles - Back In The USSR
Any takers for the crown of audio aviatory champion 2009 ?
Regards
SHJ
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Berkshire UK
Age: 92
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Merpati Vanguard
In 1972 I took G-APEF repainted as PK-MVJ as the first BEA Vanguard to Jakarta for Merpati.
In the end they had 4 ex BEA and 4 ex Air Canada
My ferry flight lasted 7days with and extra 3weeks Route Training.
Quite a trip.
In the end they had 4 ex BEA and 4 ex Air Canada
My ferry flight lasted 7days with and extra 3weeks Route Training.
Quite a trip.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<In those days, before nose-in parking, the BEA Vanguard fleet would be coming and going all day,>>
And most of the night too.. They didn't have curfews in those days.
And most of the night too.. They didn't have curfews in those days.
One of the old hands at Air Bridge Carriers told me that the floor support structure was lowered by a couple of inches when Vanguards were converted to Merchantmen. Anyone know the full story?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: west of the Tamar
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heathrow Director:
Yes, unlike today's schedules of multiple daily departures at more or less regular intervals, in the 1960's, many routes ex-LHR (or LAP in those days) to continental European destinations would have one or two daytime departures and a night flight departing at some unearthly hour such as 2300, midnight, or even 0100 or 0200! I guess the night flights were scheduled to tap into the "low-fare market" of the day by offering special night tourist prices.
Living close to the BPK VOR in those days,we would get the domestic BEA Vanguards noisily climbing away from 10L or 10R departures, sometimes 3 or 4 in quick succession, and KLM Electras departing on 28L or 28R departures. Best sound of all were probably made by the various Eastern European IL-18's. Most exotic was an Areoflot TU-114 climbing away at very low altitude off 28L or 28R, must have been around 1965. A very rare bird.
Yes, unlike today's schedules of multiple daily departures at more or less regular intervals, in the 1960's, many routes ex-LHR (or LAP in those days) to continental European destinations would have one or two daytime departures and a night flight departing at some unearthly hour such as 2300, midnight, or even 0100 or 0200! I guess the night flights were scheduled to tap into the "low-fare market" of the day by offering special night tourist prices.
Living close to the BPK VOR in those days,we would get the domestic BEA Vanguards noisily climbing away from 10L or 10R departures, sometimes 3 or 4 in quick succession, and KLM Electras departing on 28L or 28R departures. Best sound of all were probably made by the various Eastern European IL-18's. Most exotic was an Areoflot TU-114 climbing away at very low altitude off 28L or 28R, must have been around 1965. A very rare bird.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEA used Vanguards for freight work during the 70s so they flew just about all night long.
I was there for the first TU-114 flight on 8 Feb 1963... amazing aeroplane.
I was there for the first TU-114 flight on 8 Feb 1963... amazing aeroplane.