Argonaut/North Star Memories and Observations
Thread Starter
Being liquid-cooled, and operating from "hot and high" points east, did those Merlins ever get hot?
I seem to recall one Merlin-engined machine (militiary) that had a limited taxi time on the ground.
r
I seem to recall one Merlin-engined machine (militiary) that had a limited taxi time on the ground.
r
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QUOTE from henry crun:
Apparently O.P. didn't bat an eyelid, but turned round and said "strangely quiet, isn't it Mr Smith ?".
UNQUOTE
There was story at Canadair of the test-pilot, Al Lilly, I believe, still happily with us, who was on a test-flight at night in a C-4 over 8/8 cloud. The aircraft suffered a total electrical failure. What to do?
He knew where he was, more or less, in the flight test area, and he recalled the oil refinery, at the Eastern tip of Montreal island, that constantly burned off waste gases. The flames could be seen for miles. By the stars he set off in what he calculated as the right direction, and there indeed found a hole in the cloud caused by the convection current. Down he came through the hole and back visually below the cloud to Cartierville. Comment on the airmanship is superfluous.
I once travelled by road with him, and I swear he did a walk-around and full pre-flight check on the car. That, I suppose, is how one becomes an elderly retired test-pilot.
It was a C-4, as I recall, that brought the Queen back to the UK from South Africa when King George VI died.
Apparently O.P. didn't bat an eyelid, but turned round and said "strangely quiet, isn't it Mr Smith ?".
UNQUOTE
There was story at Canadair of the test-pilot, Al Lilly, I believe, still happily with us, who was on a test-flight at night in a C-4 over 8/8 cloud. The aircraft suffered a total electrical failure. What to do?
He knew where he was, more or less, in the flight test area, and he recalled the oil refinery, at the Eastern tip of Montreal island, that constantly burned off waste gases. The flames could be seen for miles. By the stars he set off in what he calculated as the right direction, and there indeed found a hole in the cloud caused by the convection current. Down he came through the hole and back visually below the cloud to Cartierville. Comment on the airmanship is superfluous.
I once travelled by road with him, and I swear he did a walk-around and full pre-flight check on the car. That, I suppose, is how one becomes an elderly retired test-pilot.
It was a C-4, as I recall, that brought the Queen back to the UK from South Africa when King George VI died.
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Davaar: nearly correct. It was the tour of East Africa. The Argonaut was G-ALHK 'Atalanta' and the date she set foot back on British soil as Queen Elizabeth II was 7th February 1952. Sir Winston Churchill, the Prime Minister, was standing at the foot of the aircraft steps to meet her.
There was a plaque to this effect mounted on the bulkhead of the rear cocktail lounge. I've seen it. You see, I flew on 'HK on the 29th of June 1956, as an unaccompanied minor, to Accra, via Tripoli and Kano. The stewardess took me back to take a look at it. (No jokes about The Golden Rivet please!) It was only a brief visit because the grown-ups were partaking of the alcohol.
They might have been knocking them back a bit more heavily than normal - if that was possible - due to a certain fact of which I was oblivious. Five days earlier, Argonaut G-ALHE had crashed just after takeoff at Kano, into an approaching storm, with considerable loss of life. There were thirty-two fatalities out of forty-five aboard, including three crew members. Other than the fact that I was at boarding school, and the news must have been deliberately kept from me, I'm astonished that I didn't hear about the accident until I reached Accra and my parents told me!
There was a plaque to this effect mounted on the bulkhead of the rear cocktail lounge. I've seen it. You see, I flew on 'HK on the 29th of June 1956, as an unaccompanied minor, to Accra, via Tripoli and Kano. The stewardess took me back to take a look at it. (No jokes about The Golden Rivet please!) It was only a brief visit because the grown-ups were partaking of the alcohol.
They might have been knocking them back a bit more heavily than normal - if that was possible - due to a certain fact of which I was oblivious. Five days earlier, Argonaut G-ALHE had crashed just after takeoff at Kano, into an approaching storm, with considerable loss of life. There were thirty-two fatalities out of forty-five aboard, including three crew members. Other than the fact that I was at boarding school, and the news must have been deliberately kept from me, I'm astonished that I didn't hear about the accident until I reached Accra and my parents told me!
Last edited by Georgeablelovehowindia; 11th Mar 2007 at 18:18.
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The Kano crash was suspected by BOAC ops people as being down to a temperature inversion at low level,- ie it was cool enough to get airbourne but at 200 feet or so it was too hot for it to stay in the air, so was doomed as soon as it met any significant obstacle, or even substantial turbulence.
Thread Starter
There are some excellent Argonaut images here, along with many other types.
http://www.mccrow.org.uk/EastAfrica/...20Airports.htm
r
http://www.mccrow.org.uk/EastAfrica/...20Airports.htm
r
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I posted this in another thread (DC-4), on which Evans suggests it is
relevant to this thread also, so I repeat it:
QUOTE
The Midland Argonauts certainly had a flight engineer. My uncle did relief shifts as one. Plus, one was involved in the loss at Stockport. "Taff" Lloyd RIP.
UNQUOTE
No, to be accurate, Midland, Hotel Golf did not carry a flight engineer.
Mr Lloyd was "an experienced although not certificated ground engineer......He flew in Hotel Golf in order to perform ground engineer's duties when the aircraft was away from its home station. He had no duties to perform in the air, but in order to help out, not as a matter of duty, he filled in instrument readings in the technical log and instrument and fuel logs, and if asked to do so by the Captain or First Officer would move control levers or switches in flight, for example the radiator shutter controls, and the fuel booster pump switches during the approach check".
"Apart from such very limited help in flight as they might request and receive from the ground engineers the Captain and First Officer on Argonaut aircraft in British Midland shared the whole workload of flying, navigation, radio communication, engine handling and system management".
And so on.
The ARB "now require" that "as part of its minimum crew the Argonaut shall carry a third pilot or qualified flight engineer ...."
All of the quotations above in inverted commas are taken from the Board of Trade Report of 7 May, 1968, by Mr Justice Peter Bristow, into the accident to G-ALHG on 4 June, 1967.
relevant to this thread also, so I repeat it:
QUOTE
The Midland Argonauts certainly had a flight engineer. My uncle did relief shifts as one. Plus, one was involved in the loss at Stockport. "Taff" Lloyd RIP.
UNQUOTE
No, to be accurate, Midland, Hotel Golf did not carry a flight engineer.
Mr Lloyd was "an experienced although not certificated ground engineer......He flew in Hotel Golf in order to perform ground engineer's duties when the aircraft was away from its home station. He had no duties to perform in the air, but in order to help out, not as a matter of duty, he filled in instrument readings in the technical log and instrument and fuel logs, and if asked to do so by the Captain or First Officer would move control levers or switches in flight, for example the radiator shutter controls, and the fuel booster pump switches during the approach check".
"Apart from such very limited help in flight as they might request and receive from the ground engineers the Captain and First Officer on Argonaut aircraft in British Midland shared the whole workload of flying, navigation, radio communication, engine handling and system management".
And so on.
The ARB "now require" that "as part of its minimum crew the Argonaut shall carry a third pilot or qualified flight engineer ...."
All of the quotations above in inverted commas are taken from the Board of Trade Report of 7 May, 1968, by Mr Justice Peter Bristow, into the accident to G-ALHG on 4 June, 1967.
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In post # 50 above I mentioned the "black box" from which the flight path of Hotel Golf was reconstructed after the Stockport crash, and in post # 52 "forget" wrote that the Trident was the first commercial aircraft in which such a device was installed.
With respect, as we lawyers say, the Report I mention in the post immediately above narrates at Part IV that Hotel Golf was equipped with a Midas Type CMM Flight Recording system which recorded information simultaneously on two magnetic tapes, one housed in an armoured and fireproof container sited in the tail and designed to survive an accident, the other located on the cock pit floor. Both tapes were recovered. The tape from the protected recorder was undamaged. The other was "virtually undamaged" though the cassette was thrown from the electronics unit by the impact force.
The parameters recorded were indicated airspeed, pressure altitude and heading. Normal acceleration in each direction along the normal axis of the aircraft should also have been recorded, but was not for reasons that could not be determined.
The AIB working group was able to reconstruct what hapened during the last 900 seconds of flight. The rate of descent was a fairly steady 200 f.p.m. until at the very end there was a "sudden loss of height at the rate of 2000 f.p.m."
The Report includes, as I wrote before from memory, plots in azimuth and elevation, energy plot, and combined information plot.
With respect, as we lawyers say, the Report I mention in the post immediately above narrates at Part IV that Hotel Golf was equipped with a Midas Type CMM Flight Recording system which recorded information simultaneously on two magnetic tapes, one housed in an armoured and fireproof container sited in the tail and designed to survive an accident, the other located on the cock pit floor. Both tapes were recovered. The tape from the protected recorder was undamaged. The other was "virtually undamaged" though the cassette was thrown from the electronics unit by the impact force.
The parameters recorded were indicated airspeed, pressure altitude and heading. Normal acceleration in each direction along the normal axis of the aircraft should also have been recorded, but was not for reasons that could not be determined.
The AIB working group was able to reconstruct what hapened during the last 900 seconds of flight. The rate of descent was a fairly steady 200 f.p.m. until at the very end there was a "sudden loss of height at the rate of 2000 f.p.m."
The Report includes, as I wrote before from memory, plots in azimuth and elevation, energy plot, and combined information plot.
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In post # 50 above I mentioned the "black box" from which the flight path of Hotel Golf was reconstructed after the Stockport crash, and in post # 52 "forget" wrote that the Trident was the first commercial aircraft in which such a device was installed.
I think the Trident's contribution to 'black boxes' followed the Staines tragedy. The AAIB (or the then equivalent) called for mandatory CVRs following that accident, as cockpit voice information may have helped ascertain why the droops were retracted, causing the stall and crash.
I think the Trident's contribution to 'black boxes' followed the Staines tragedy. The AAIB (or the then equivalent) called for mandatory CVRs following that accident, as cockpit voice information may have helped ascertain why the droops were retracted, causing the stall and crash.
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After a gap of about 10+ years, I visited the former Home Town last weekend. It reminded me that today is the 40th anniversary of Argonaut G H piling in: http://www.carlscam.com/stockport/airdisaster.htm . Interesting that the Stockport Express faithfully carries on journalism's long tradition of accuracy, reporting long after the events:
http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/images/show/5/5078.html "The tail unit of the crashed DC4 passenger aircraft"
http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/images/show/5/5080.html "The site of the crashed British Midland jet"
Apart from the demolished buildings, the crash site is very much as it was then.
http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/images/show/5/5078.html "The tail unit of the crashed DC4 passenger aircraft"
http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/images/show/5/5080.html "The site of the crashed British Midland jet"
Apart from the demolished buildings, the crash site is very much as it was then.
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Argonauts at Panshanger !
Hi, Your answer to the argonauts at Panshanger question confirms my very old memory of seeing three at least parked on the grass ! early 60's ?often wondered why they were there ? did they fly out ? were they broken up ? please answer this my first ever entry into a "the net" norwich.
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I have a picture of CF-TFM at Panshanger taken in 1964 - must have been one of the 'Overseas' imports that never got used - ended up in a heap in West Africa - Cameroun - crashed whilst gun running on 11 October 1966 according to Larry Milberry's book "The Canadair North Star"
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I have a picture of CF-TFM at Panshanger taken in 1964
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Panshanger relics
.........Apart from the Argonaut/ex TCA DC4M mentioned above, I seem to remember seeing what I thought were a couple or three standard DC4's parked on the grass there at some point around early or mid 60's. It's possible there could have been some confusion if observed from a distance. I had visited to borrow/rent/ferry a light aircraft, and had been surprised to see such large airliners dumped outside what I assumed was just the local flying club. ( no entry found in logbook, so not sure of the date ) For some reason I recall the flaps were fully extended making them look a bit untidy and abandoned. Referring again to the North Star book, I don't see any Argonaut/C4 or DC4M having been scrapped at Panshanger.
More likely Bagington if they could be ferried.
Midland 331 at top of page struck a bell. I just checked, and note that on a sector in May 1965 we had to return to the ramp and shut down ( Damascus - Baghdad ) having been stuck for ages at the runway holding point awaiting a clearance. The Merlin engine temps were the problem. I suppose it's quite poss that coms between DAM and BGW ATC's at that stage relied on that chaotic AM only HF radio. Having no radar, we used to suffer from hail damage to the radiators, and as co-pilot and assistant to the Ground Eng crew member on these occasions, it would have been my job to make sure the rad fins were reasonably straightend out with a flat piece of wood or similar. We seem to have got away later.....
More likely Bagington if they could be ferried.
Midland 331 at top of page struck a bell. I just checked, and note that on a sector in May 1965 we had to return to the ramp and shut down ( Damascus - Baghdad ) having been stuck for ages at the runway holding point awaiting a clearance. The Merlin engine temps were the problem. I suppose it's quite poss that coms between DAM and BGW ATC's at that stage relied on that chaotic AM only HF radio. Having no radar, we used to suffer from hail damage to the radiators, and as co-pilot and assistant to the Ground Eng crew member on these occasions, it would have been my job to make sure the rad fins were reasonably straightend out with a flat piece of wood or similar. We seem to have got away later.....
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Argonauts at LHR
I am sure there are better photos of this scene than mine! However, I do not know of them. So I thought you might be interested to see this impressive line-up on 16 July 1959 at Heathrow.
Last edited by l.garey; 28th Aug 2007 at 15:18.
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C-4 Freighters
Dear All,
C/n 160 G-ALHN was apparently "modified" after BOAC service prior to
delivery to Overseas Aviation by Marshalls at Cambridge to a
freighter config. Photos prove this did not include a freight door,
she flew for some time with Overseas and Flying Enterprise mainly on
IT passenger flights and the occaisional freight run.
What was the nature of the modifications in early March 1960?
C/n 134 CF-TFJ was converted to freighter configuration during
service with Trans Canada Airlines what was the nature of the
conversion, did it include a freight door? She was sold to A.J. Gaul
13/10/61. Did she then fly to Coventry (see c/n 147 below)? If so
did anyone photograph her port side ?
C/n 147 CF-TFU was converted to freighter configuration during
service with Trans Canada Airlines what was the nature of the
conversion, did it include a freight door? Photo evidence exists of
the starboard side showing the windows either blanked out or painted
over. She was sold to A.J. Gaul 13/10/61 and delivered Gatwick -
Coventry on 31/10/61. Did anyone take a photo of the port side
during her stay at Coventry?
Did these two remain pressurised when flown as freighters?
Hope someone can help
Be lucky
Dave Truman
C/n 160 G-ALHN was apparently "modified" after BOAC service prior to
delivery to Overseas Aviation by Marshalls at Cambridge to a
freighter config. Photos prove this did not include a freight door,
she flew for some time with Overseas and Flying Enterprise mainly on
IT passenger flights and the occaisional freight run.
What was the nature of the modifications in early March 1960?
C/n 134 CF-TFJ was converted to freighter configuration during
service with Trans Canada Airlines what was the nature of the
conversion, did it include a freight door? She was sold to A.J. Gaul
13/10/61. Did she then fly to Coventry (see c/n 147 below)? If so
did anyone photograph her port side ?
C/n 147 CF-TFU was converted to freighter configuration during
service with Trans Canada Airlines what was the nature of the
conversion, did it include a freight door? Photo evidence exists of
the starboard side showing the windows either blanked out or painted
over. She was sold to A.J. Gaul 13/10/61 and delivered Gatwick -
Coventry on 31/10/61. Did anyone take a photo of the port side
during her stay at Coventry?
Did these two remain pressurised when flown as freighters?
Hope someone can help
Be lucky
Dave Truman
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East Midlands
I was an ATCA at East Midlands when it opened in April 1965. One Sunday during that summer British Midland sent all 3 of their Argonauts to an event over in Lincolnshire (50 years and 2 strokes have erased the memory of exactly where) to operate pleasure trips.
They all came back together; the duty ATCO, it might have been Harry Pollack, opened the window and said "now you know what a squadron of Spitfires sounded like".
I had previously flown on G-ALHS Luton/Jersey/Luton the previous summer for a jolly; the customs officer letting us take in the full DF allowance although we'd only been out of the country for about 3 hours.
I recall that 'HG and 'HS were 2 of the 3 aircraft but I can't remember which was the 3rd.
They all came back together; the duty ATCO, it might have been Harry Pollack, opened the window and said "now you know what a squadron of Spitfires sounded like".
I had previously flown on G-ALHS Luton/Jersey/Luton the previous summer for a jolly; the customs officer letting us take in the full DF allowance although we'd only been out of the country for about 3 hours.
I recall that 'HG and 'HS were 2 of the 3 aircraft but I can't remember which was the 3rd.
Thread Starter
A super memory. There are photos of Castle Don. in 1965 on the internet somewhere, maybe on a BBC site, posted in conjunction with the 50th anniversary.
'HY was the third of the fleet, I seem to recall.
A certain Captain B., notable maverick and long-serving Midland aviator, beat up the BMA admin block one day in an Argonaut, (according to my sister who worked there), causing several staff to dive under their desks for cover.
'HY was the third of the fleet, I seem to recall.
A certain Captain B., notable maverick and long-serving Midland aviator, beat up the BMA admin block one day in an Argonaut, (according to my sister who worked there), causing several staff to dive under their desks for cover.
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My only flight in the type was as a passenger of Air Links from Germany to Gatwick. It was by far the noisiest airliner I had ever experienced and the landing alarmed the full load of pax. I hope someone reported the very heavy landing(s).
Last edited by Rosevidney1; 24th Sep 2015 at 12:07. Reason: Plural added