Drama of Dresden- History Channel, Friday, Dec 1st
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Drama of Dresden- History Channel, Friday, Dec 1st
Rant mode ON.....
http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/s...ramme_3334.php
I am working that night and will miss this, but will I miss a fair appraisal of the dedication, bravery and skill of the men of Bomber Command? Will it be a fitting epitaph to the 55,000 who died in the command on ops? I don't think so.
To be fair, the programme doesn't set out to do that, but when will somebody get round to broadcasting a programme that does? This stuff really makes my blood boil.
http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/s...ramme_3334.php
I am working that night and will miss this, but will I miss a fair appraisal of the dedication, bravery and skill of the men of Bomber Command? Will it be a fitting epitaph to the 55,000 who died in the command on ops? I don't think so.
To be fair, the programme doesn't set out to do that, but when will somebody get round to broadcasting a programme that does? This stuff really makes my blood boil.
I've met and spoken (in Dresden) to people who were around when that happened, as well as having seen what is left of the damage, and the amount of rebuilding that was needed.
I've met and spoken to RAF crews from that period, and heard a fair bit of their story.
So far as I can tell, they were all decent people, who went through hell because of what other people decided.
Both their stories, I'd argue, need telling. Personally, I've never felt that I was kept in the dark about what the bomber crews went through - but when I heard and saw what my country had done to Dresden I was shocked.
As I don't get Sky or Cable, I'll miss this, but personally I think that they have every good reason to tell the story, with every sympathy to the Germans.
The sacrifice that allied Bomber crews went through deserves marking but is not, I'd argue, any reason to not openly discuss the damage they did, or the reasons why.
G
I've met and spoken to RAF crews from that period, and heard a fair bit of their story.
So far as I can tell, they were all decent people, who went through hell because of what other people decided.
Both their stories, I'd argue, need telling. Personally, I've never felt that I was kept in the dark about what the bomber crews went through - but when I heard and saw what my country had done to Dresden I was shocked.
As I don't get Sky or Cable, I'll miss this, but personally I think that they have every good reason to tell the story, with every sympathy to the Germans.
The sacrifice that allied Bomber crews went through deserves marking but is not, I'd argue, any reason to not openly discuss the damage they did, or the reasons why.
G
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I see your point Genghis; in fact you seem to have a more informed point of view on Dresden than me. And I'm not denying the fact that awful carnage took place thre that night. But if you try to catch any programmes about the bombing campaign over Germany, and this was your only source of information on the subject, you could be forgiven for thinking that the RAF came up with the great idea of doing nothing but bomb defenceless German civilians and bending all its mighty resources to this one inhuman cause. Very little is mentioned of the efforts to bomb factories and infrastructure; much less, the fact that the gloves were off in 1940 when the Germans bombed Rotterdam, Portsmouth, London, Coventry et al. Can you imagine what would have happened to our cities if the Germans had had thousands of Lancasters?
The media situation is currently very unbalanced away from sympathies for the bomber crews, and I really feel it is grossly unfair.
The media situation is currently very unbalanced away from sympathies for the bomber crews, and I really feel it is grossly unfair.
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Genghis,
Were you not shocked when you read of what the Germans did to London and the cities that Kev mentions?
So, have read Norman Longmate, Len Deighton, Max Hastings and so many more who will give you chapter and verse on the subject. Why, who and wherefore.
From my perspective I was 9 years old when the Germans were dropping on us high explosives, incendiaries, aerial mines and butterfly bombs all to one purpose - to kill and maim. It was the docklands areas and the east end of London that was blasted night after night. Each attack designed to corrupt our major supply lines and, inevitably, to kill thousands of civilians. Does anyone think the Germans were sorry? Does anyone think it was the luck of the draw? I recall the fear of being woken up and then taken to our garden shelter night after night. We lived near three major war production factories, none were hit, but houses around us were. The devastation is not easy to describe but the fear on people's faces were evident. For children like me it was 'just' frightening but life went on until you went 'down the shelter' again.
I can also recall, quite easily as it happens, the news broadcasts by household names like Alvar Liddell telling us that the RAF had shot down XXX number of bombers or fighters. All the time, even as a youngster, we willed the government, Churchill in particular, to give as good as we got with a massive bonus thrown in for good measure. Two years of bombing was hard to take but the stoicism of the people, yes, and the kids, kept everyone going. Just so that you were told that the bombers were over Germany and giving them as good as we had had.
So as far as Hamburg, Cologne, Düsseldorf and all the major cities that the RAF bombed, I have no feelings for the targets, they were a consequence of terrible toll bought upon us by the Germans. They should not have expected anything else.
Then there is Dresden. Much has been said about its destruction but I don't mind. I still mind that that Prince Andrew went to Dresden to say sorry though but pray tell me who has come over to London to say sorry?
But why should I mind, and people like me, after the destruction that was wrought on me as one poor child caught up in a war not of our making. It would be inhuman to say that I don't have sympathy for the people who were killed, I do. But I have more for the friends and relations I lost as a result of war and of the thousands who were killed by just being at home!
Then there is the RAF. A brilliant bunch of BoB pilots who saved us from the tyranny of the Nazi's and the bomber crews who died giving back what Hitler did to us. Those crews, 55,000 of them, were killed paying the Germans back. And NOT one medal for any of them for a campaign of unimaginable courage and devotion to duty. Its not too late, but it is still a stain on Churchill's leadership.
IFR
but when I heard and saw what my country had done to Dresden I was shocked.
The sacrifice that allied Bomber crews went through deserves marking but is not, I'd argue, any reason to not openly discuss the damage they did, or the reasons why.
From my perspective I was 9 years old when the Germans were dropping on us high explosives, incendiaries, aerial mines and butterfly bombs all to one purpose - to kill and maim. It was the docklands areas and the east end of London that was blasted night after night. Each attack designed to corrupt our major supply lines and, inevitably, to kill thousands of civilians. Does anyone think the Germans were sorry? Does anyone think it was the luck of the draw? I recall the fear of being woken up and then taken to our garden shelter night after night. We lived near three major war production factories, none were hit, but houses around us were. The devastation is not easy to describe but the fear on people's faces were evident. For children like me it was 'just' frightening but life went on until you went 'down the shelter' again.
I can also recall, quite easily as it happens, the news broadcasts by household names like Alvar Liddell telling us that the RAF had shot down XXX number of bombers or fighters. All the time, even as a youngster, we willed the government, Churchill in particular, to give as good as we got with a massive bonus thrown in for good measure. Two years of bombing was hard to take but the stoicism of the people, yes, and the kids, kept everyone going. Just so that you were told that the bombers were over Germany and giving them as good as we had had.
So as far as Hamburg, Cologne, Düsseldorf and all the major cities that the RAF bombed, I have no feelings for the targets, they were a consequence of terrible toll bought upon us by the Germans. They should not have expected anything else.
Then there is Dresden. Much has been said about its destruction but I don't mind. I still mind that that Prince Andrew went to Dresden to say sorry though but pray tell me who has come over to London to say sorry?
But why should I mind, and people like me, after the destruction that was wrought on me as one poor child caught up in a war not of our making. It would be inhuman to say that I don't have sympathy for the people who were killed, I do. But I have more for the friends and relations I lost as a result of war and of the thousands who were killed by just being at home!
Then there is the RAF. A brilliant bunch of BoB pilots who saved us from the tyranny of the Nazi's and the bomber crews who died giving back what Hitler did to us. Those crews, 55,000 of them, were killed paying the Germans back. And NOT one medal for any of them for a campaign of unimaginable courage and devotion to duty. Its not too late, but it is still a stain on Churchill's leadership.
IFR
The damage done to cities all across the world was appalling, to a large extent understandable within the context of the war, but appalling nonetheless.
What I found particularly shocking however about Dresden was the enormous destruction and loss of life (depending upon estimate anything from 25,000 to about 5 times that - in less than 48 hours), in a largely non-military city, when we were already in Europe and working our way steadily across it. It is very hard to see the military justification compared to e.g. the British bombing of Berlin, or even the German bombing of Coventry which were dreadful events in themselves, but more easily understandable militarily.
Not one medal? The dams raid alone caused 32 medals to be awarded, including a VC to W/C Gibson. For that matter there was a Bomber Command medal.
What I found particularly shocking however about Dresden was the enormous destruction and loss of life (depending upon estimate anything from 25,000 to about 5 times that - in less than 48 hours), in a largely non-military city, when we were already in Europe and working our way steadily across it. It is very hard to see the military justification compared to e.g. the British bombing of Berlin, or even the German bombing of Coventry which were dreadful events in themselves, but more easily understandable militarily.
Not one medal? The dams raid alone caused 32 medals to be awarded, including a VC to W/C Gibson. For that matter there was a Bomber Command medal.
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"What I found particularly shocking however about Dresden was the enormous destruction and loss of life (depending upon estimate anything from 25,000 to about 5 times that - in less than 48 hours), in a largely non-military city, when we were already in Europe and working our way steadily across it. It is very hard to see the military justification compared to e.g. the British bombing of Berlin, or even the German bombing of Coventry which were dreadful events in themselves, but more easily understandable militarily."
The damage and loss of life were indeed appalling, but it is not true to say that Dresden was a non-military target. It was infact the closest railhead to the advancing russian army, through which the German reinforcements and supplies were arriving. The loss of life was vastly increased by the fact that thousands of refugees were also travelling West through Dresden in order to escape the Russians; I suspect shelters were at a premium. The aiming point was, I believe, the marshalling yards. Whilst the loss of life was awful, I find the attack on Dresden to be easier to understand militarily than the attacks on Berlin, which were valuable only in a strategic context. While Dresden was undoubtably a strategic attack, the reasons for its targetting at that particular time involved a degree of tactical thinking.
The damage and loss of life were indeed appalling, but it is not true to say that Dresden was a non-military target. It was infact the closest railhead to the advancing russian army, through which the German reinforcements and supplies were arriving. The loss of life was vastly increased by the fact that thousands of refugees were also travelling West through Dresden in order to escape the Russians; I suspect shelters were at a premium. The aiming point was, I believe, the marshalling yards. Whilst the loss of life was awful, I find the attack on Dresden to be easier to understand militarily than the attacks on Berlin, which were valuable only in a strategic context. While Dresden was undoubtably a strategic attack, the reasons for its targetting at that particular time involved a degree of tactical thinking.
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Fair points made.
Winston Churchill in his speech on VE day made NO mention of Bomber Command! None!!
It is a pity, and will always remain so, that he did not reccommend the striking of a Bomber Command medal covering the period of 1939/1945. The same goes for 'Bomber' Harris.
Individual medals in that context do not count. Although they were well and truly deserved.
PPP
Winston Churchill in his speech on VE day made NO mention of Bomber Command! None!!
It is a pity, and will always remain so, that he did not reccommend the striking of a Bomber Command medal covering the period of 1939/1945. The same goes for 'Bomber' Harris.
Individual medals in that context do not count. Although they were well and truly deserved.
PPP
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It is difficult to discuss this without justifiable emotion colouring ones perspective.
I have enormous respect and admiration for the RAF crews who went out night after night to strike at Germany (and the American daylight crews also, obviously, but I do not wish to broaden this discussion unnecessarily).
I think it is shameful and disgraceful that no campaign medal was awarded to the survivors in Bomber Command.
But it is equally true that much of the destruction in the latter part of the war - which Dresden has come to symbolise - was not necessary, from a military standpoint - and that this WAS known to the Allied commanders at the time.
It was already clear by then that the strategy of de-housing and demoralising the civilian population of Germany had not, and would not, on its own, lead to a collapse of the regime or its industries.
The Allied Bomber Commanders had, in the eyes of the other services, been given their chance and failed.
No blame can or should attach to those who did their duty unflinchingly and willingly, in good faith, and according to the rules of warfare, whatever the consequences.
The consequences should be laid at the door of those in a position to make the decisions.
And here, again, it is hard to blame Arthur Harris alone - he had been given a mandate by the Air Ministry and the British Government to take the war to the enemy in any way possible - when the air offensive was essentially the only offensive action Britain could take against Germany.
Once the weapon of Bomber Command had reached the level of sophistication and effectiveness that it achieved in 1944 and on, it simply had to be used - it had almost a life and purpose of its own. The public demanded it - although by 1945 there was a growing public unease in Britain about the necessity of using such force. The enormous investment of resources that had gone into Bomber Command simply could not be left unused - it would have been unthinkable at the time.
It would appear that the real problem lay in the inability of the highest commander in the RAF - Portal - to actually exercise his authority and impose the will of SHAEF and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which was to subordinate the bomber forces to the requirements of the ground commanders - much as had been done in the preparations for D-Day.
But because Harris had achieved such a high level of public support - like Montgomery - Portal simply didn't have the balls to make such an unpopular decision - sacking or restraining Harris.
Even Churchill, in late 1944 and onwards, seems to have been at pains to dissociate himself from the man - and the mission - he had been exhorting to precisely these efforts just a few years earlier.
In summary, then, should Britain (and America) feel guilty about the bombing of Dresden (and other similar targets in 1945?). On balance, yes (in my opinion). But should blame be apportioned solely to Bomber Command and all those who served in it? Absolutely not.
SD
I have enormous respect and admiration for the RAF crews who went out night after night to strike at Germany (and the American daylight crews also, obviously, but I do not wish to broaden this discussion unnecessarily).
I think it is shameful and disgraceful that no campaign medal was awarded to the survivors in Bomber Command.
But it is equally true that much of the destruction in the latter part of the war - which Dresden has come to symbolise - was not necessary, from a military standpoint - and that this WAS known to the Allied commanders at the time.
It was already clear by then that the strategy of de-housing and demoralising the civilian population of Germany had not, and would not, on its own, lead to a collapse of the regime or its industries.
The Allied Bomber Commanders had, in the eyes of the other services, been given their chance and failed.
No blame can or should attach to those who did their duty unflinchingly and willingly, in good faith, and according to the rules of warfare, whatever the consequences.
The consequences should be laid at the door of those in a position to make the decisions.
And here, again, it is hard to blame Arthur Harris alone - he had been given a mandate by the Air Ministry and the British Government to take the war to the enemy in any way possible - when the air offensive was essentially the only offensive action Britain could take against Germany.
Once the weapon of Bomber Command had reached the level of sophistication and effectiveness that it achieved in 1944 and on, it simply had to be used - it had almost a life and purpose of its own. The public demanded it - although by 1945 there was a growing public unease in Britain about the necessity of using such force. The enormous investment of resources that had gone into Bomber Command simply could not be left unused - it would have been unthinkable at the time.
It would appear that the real problem lay in the inability of the highest commander in the RAF - Portal - to actually exercise his authority and impose the will of SHAEF and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which was to subordinate the bomber forces to the requirements of the ground commanders - much as had been done in the preparations for D-Day.
But because Harris had achieved such a high level of public support - like Montgomery - Portal simply didn't have the balls to make such an unpopular decision - sacking or restraining Harris.
Even Churchill, in late 1944 and onwards, seems to have been at pains to dissociate himself from the man - and the mission - he had been exhorting to precisely these efforts just a few years earlier.
In summary, then, should Britain (and America) feel guilty about the bombing of Dresden (and other similar targets in 1945?). On balance, yes (in my opinion). But should blame be apportioned solely to Bomber Command and all those who served in it? Absolutely not.
SD
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Exactly when do we expect the apology for Coventry? Not so many civilian losses as Dresden of course, but much less strategic or tactical justification too. Merely a careful experiment to prove the new German radio beam bombing system.
Anyone who denies that the bombing campaign had no effect on the industrial production of Germany and the outcome of the war deceives themselves. Dresden was, like any other German city, a valid target for both strategic and tactical reasons. The Russians had particularly requested its destruction to close the railhead. Consider what would have happened had the raid not taken place - Caen was flattened as comprehensively as Dresden while the Germans held on fast to prevent the allied advance towards Paris. How much more tightly would they have held on to Dresden in the face of the Russian advance?
It is interesting that the other major campaign for which no campaign medal was awarded also resulted in the participants suffering enormous casualty rates and great hardship. The Arctic campaign helped the Russians hold the Germans at Stalingrad, saving millions of Russian lives and the European bombing campaign helped bring the war to a swifter close, saving many more German lives than were lost.
In like manner the much criticised destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually prevented any need for an invasion of Japan, saving millions of Japanese lives as well as those of allied troops.
If Bomber Command had been obliged to go to war in Europe in the sixties the loss rate would have been over 90% while scores of cities would have vanished along with their populations. Such a war would not have lasted very long and the loss of civilian life would have far outnumbered military casualties. On the moral front, it is war itself that is unacceptable. Unfortunately, the only defence against attack is to fight back - no holds barred, to ensure the fastest possible end to hostilities. Far better to be prepared and stand fast in the face of threats as we of Bomber Command/2ATAF and the rest of NATO did in the fifities and sixties, than weakly allow hostilities to begin as they did in 1939.
Anyone who denies that the bombing campaign had no effect on the industrial production of Germany and the outcome of the war deceives themselves. Dresden was, like any other German city, a valid target for both strategic and tactical reasons. The Russians had particularly requested its destruction to close the railhead. Consider what would have happened had the raid not taken place - Caen was flattened as comprehensively as Dresden while the Germans held on fast to prevent the allied advance towards Paris. How much more tightly would they have held on to Dresden in the face of the Russian advance?
It is interesting that the other major campaign for which no campaign medal was awarded also resulted in the participants suffering enormous casualty rates and great hardship. The Arctic campaign helped the Russians hold the Germans at Stalingrad, saving millions of Russian lives and the European bombing campaign helped bring the war to a swifter close, saving many more German lives than were lost.
In like manner the much criticised destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually prevented any need for an invasion of Japan, saving millions of Japanese lives as well as those of allied troops.
If Bomber Command had been obliged to go to war in Europe in the sixties the loss rate would have been over 90% while scores of cities would have vanished along with their populations. Such a war would not have lasted very long and the loss of civilian life would have far outnumbered military casualties. On the moral front, it is war itself that is unacceptable. Unfortunately, the only defence against attack is to fight back - no holds barred, to ensure the fastest possible end to hostilities. Far better to be prepared and stand fast in the face of threats as we of Bomber Command/2ATAF and the rest of NATO did in the fifities and sixties, than weakly allow hostilities to begin as they did in 1939.
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I was 9 when the war started and lived in the East End of London throughout the Blitz which meant down into the shelter every night and emerging the following morning to whatever destruction had been wrought during the night. Nobody has ever said sorry to me for seeing my house ruined, my schooling upset, what should have been my youthful activites curtailed and the distress caused to my parents. Can I sympathy with Dresden---tough s8it--you started it.
Gentleman Aviator
I remember discovering while learning German at school (and this was the 60s) that they actually had a verb "coventrieren" meaning to destroy utterly ...... not sure we ever managed "Dresdenise".......
'Twas in my big green German Dictionary - the Collins one I think it was......
'Twas in my big green German Dictionary - the Collins one I think it was......
I was 9 when the war started and lived in the East End of London throughout the Blitz which meant down into the shelter every night and emerging the following morning to whatever destruction had been wrought during the night. Nobody has ever said sorry to me for seeing my house ruined, my schooling upset, what should have been my youthful activites curtailed and the distress caused to my parents. Can I sympathy with Dresden---tough s8it--you started it.
G
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I am sick and tired of hearing about the dastardly RAF Bomber Command and Dresden. Dresden together with Berlin, Chemnitz, and Leipzig was bombed at the specific request of the Soviet Red Army STAVKA (General Staff) and Stalin. The USAAF bombed Dresden the following day causing casualties and Swinemunde in March 1945 causing as many casualties as Dresden, do the Americans have this kind of hand-wringing?, No they do not and the Luftwaffe did not even bomb the Continental USA. Lets have a bit of support for the dwindling band of survivors of RAF Bomber Command who feel that they have to justify their actions fighting one of the most inhuman regimes that the world has ever seen.
Members of RAF Bomber command of-course, have to justify nothing. They were brave men, serving their country to the best of their abilities, and trusting in those who led them.
Any blame (or not) is at the commands and politicians. Much like the current conflicts really.
G
Any blame (or not) is at the commands and politicians. Much like the current conflicts really.
G
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mmmmm.... my view on Dresden is the same as if I had I walked into a pub and picked a fight with someone who proceeded to give me a good hammering. If you dish it out expect to get it back.
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I, like InFinRetirement and Shack, spent more nights in our air raid shelter than I care to remember.
As an ATC cadet I flew across Germany into Berlin a few years after the war when the cities were still just heaps of rubble.
My attitude then was the same as now.
They would have done the same or worse to us if they had the capability, so they have no valid cause to complain about what happened, tough sh!t.
As an ATC cadet I flew across Germany into Berlin a few years after the war when the cities were still just heaps of rubble.
My attitude then was the same as now.
They would have done the same or worse to us if they had the capability, so they have no valid cause to complain about what happened, tough sh!t.
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My mum was buried alive in an Anderson shelter - by a bomb probably aimed at Croydon which fell short - alongside her dead aunt. The mental scars from that night some 65 years ago are still apparent.
Also V1 and V2... rather indiscriminate weapons I have always felt.
I fully support every aspect of the Allied campaigns in WWII, but Dresden, just like the Blitz, should help to remind us why most wars are ultimately pointless. Sadly it is also occasionally inevitable - as is collateral damage.
Also V1 and V2... rather indiscriminate weapons I have always felt.
I fully support every aspect of the Allied campaigns in WWII, but Dresden, just like the Blitz, should help to remind us why most wars are ultimately pointless. Sadly it is also occasionally inevitable - as is collateral damage.
