Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ah yes, he of the incredibly short stature. Paired up with Wally George, Wally on the seat looking out, John on the floor working the pedals.
I believe he also flew at some incredible height over Darwin on an attack. Considerably higher than the oxygen system could cope with. Then I heard he went crop spraying.
I believe he also flew at some incredible height over Darwin on an attack. Considerably higher than the oxygen system could cope with. Then I heard he went crop spraying.
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Practice Bombs
My crew dropped a Yellow Sun practice bomb on the range at West Freugh(?)
from a Victor 1A. The score was about 600 yds(this was in the days before metres had been invented), which, has it been the real thing, would have been quite adequate. The lurch upward after release was there but not as dramatic as anticipated. Happy days !
from a Victor 1A. The score was about 600 yds(this was in the days before metres had been invented), which, has it been the real thing, would have been quite adequate. The lurch upward after release was there but not as dramatic as anticipated. Happy days !
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
msjtbrown,
Yes, West Freugh indeed. Good score too. Was it a 2H attack, release in the climb?
Can you remember the pop-up distance and climb angle?
BTW, the range control was Stranraer 2501 ext 76. The number of times this little old dear would go "Stranraaaar 2 5 oh too" then when asked "76" would say "Yes" followed by a whole string of callsign, IP time, target number, attack track etc etc. After a pause "This is Stranraer 2 5 oh Two"
Thanks GPO but I lost count how many times I had to say sorry.
Yes, West Freugh indeed. Good score too. Was it a 2H attack, release in the climb?
Can you remember the pop-up distance and climb angle?
BTW, the range control was Stranraer 2501 ext 76. The number of times this little old dear would go "Stranraaaar 2 5 oh too" then when asked "76" would say "Yes" followed by a whole string of callsign, IP time, target number, attack track etc etc. After a pause "This is Stranraer 2 5 oh Two"
Thanks GPO but I lost count how many times I had to say sorry.
More bang for your buck
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mstjbrown wasn't up there but I did the analysis of the drop from the kine films of both the Victor and the Tin Triangle drops of yellow sun mind you twas a long time ago now 
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YS Drop-West Freugh
It was a high level drop from about f/l 430. I guess it was in the days before the pop-up attack concept when we still planned to go in at high level. It was in the pre TFR era. A bit Stonehenge really.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ok, however the whole force was low level about 3 years before TFR started to come in.
TFR was not the magic bullet. It had a non-steerable antenna +/- 3.5 deg. Any drift over that meant you could happily TFR into a hill or side of a valley. The H2S was essential as a backup.
At least on war sorties there were not many hills or valleys and the higher speed meant smaller drift angles.
TFR was not the magic bullet. It had a non-steerable antenna +/- 3.5 deg. Any drift over that meant you could happily TFR into a hill or side of a valley. The H2S was essential as a backup.
At least on war sorties there were not many hills or valleys and the higher speed meant smaller drift angles.
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Victor1A Low Level
I take your point re low level coming in before TFR arrived. I remember it well as I started on Victor 1s when they were just coming into service and we used to nip to to Radlett in the station Anson to collect the new aeroplanes which were never ready. We had to freight down our Mae Wests and chutes which cluttered up the cloth bomber a treat. We had to take the crystals to tee up the VHF to Bomber Command frequencies too.
The early low level sorties were interesting - many a climb-out from the route in deteriorating wx. and the nav rad working like a maniac on the H2S during the low level.
We also did the early in-flight refuelling training - from Valiants. But enough of this for the moment.
Thanks for your response
The early low level sorties were interesting - many a climb-out from the route in deteriorating wx. and the nav rad working like a maniac on the H2S during the low level.
We also did the early in-flight refuelling training - from Valiants. But enough of this for the moment.
Thanks for your response
Mick Hibberd
PN
Mick never got to be an old man, sadly. He died of a heart attack (I believe in India) when flying for a freight company in the late '70s.
The Ancient Mariner
Mick never got to be an old man, sadly. He died of a heart attack (I believe in India) when flying for a freight company in the late '70s.
The Ancient Mariner
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Very sad about Mick, great bloke as most of them at Waddo were in those days. FV will remember him too although different sqn.
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Squiffy (Bloody 24hr CCR!!)
When I arrived on the Goose, 2nd Jan 1971, Squiffy met me and looked after me. I had the room next door!! I remember buying some outragaeous trousers at the Hudson Bay Co. Think you had a Mini. But I know you had the first ever 8 track I saw and a CCR tape that played continually so much so I used to trip your room power switch.
I also got half of the flying schol. gave it back as a previous recipient was also awarded half to do his night rating... not very fair I thought.
Goose was great, I renewed my friendship with my old friend Nora last year electronically, but it went the way of the original. Nice to know she had survived and was OK.
Carnival was superb, the Bulldog was outstanding, skiing, sailing, snowmobiling. I remember Tony Bastable from Magpie coming out. Sqiff, Barry, Reg, Rod, Keith Squiffs eventual replacement Dave. We had a good time.
Tony Davis was OC Ops during my time, David Leith was the Unit OC later went on to Command the Tornado Conversion Unit at Cottesmore I believe. Can't remember the Eng Off but he was a bit of a Richard Cranium!
Got my PPL, joined the Rhodesian Air Force (44 Squadron connections!) spent most of my time in Africa after 2 years in Saudi, lost a few wives along the way but now still deal with MoD on a daily basis.
I remember those days with fondness, what are you up to now Squiffy!!
I also got half of the flying schol. gave it back as a previous recipient was also awarded half to do his night rating... not very fair I thought.
Goose was great, I renewed my friendship with my old friend Nora last year electronically, but it went the way of the original. Nice to know she had survived and was OK.
Carnival was superb, the Bulldog was outstanding, skiing, sailing, snowmobiling. I remember Tony Bastable from Magpie coming out. Sqiff, Barry, Reg, Rod, Keith Squiffs eventual replacement Dave. We had a good time.
Tony Davis was OC Ops during my time, David Leith was the Unit OC later went on to Command the Tornado Conversion Unit at Cottesmore I believe. Can't remember the Eng Off but he was a bit of a Richard Cranium!
Got my PPL, joined the Rhodesian Air Force (44 Squadron connections!) spent most of my time in Africa after 2 years in Saudi, lost a few wives along the way but now still deal with MoD on a daily basis.
I remember those days with fondness, what are you up to now Squiffy!!
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David Leith was the Unit OC
see other thread on Bud Holland). He wa stold he would have a really hard time as his predecessor used to work 6-days per week and Sundays too. His desk was always burieed under at least 3 stacks of pink files each a foot deep.
Not me said David, Mon-Fri and on Thursdays I will be flying. He was and he did.!
That your man?
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The latest issue of Air International has an item on the Vulcan in which the author says “Avro aircraft were built by ‘simple folk for even simpler folk to fly.’” Now before either Beags or PN become apoplectic he was referring to the bicycle chain operated speedbrakes. The question I ask, was this a reputation Avro designed/built aircraft had, and in particular, was the Vulcan regarded as simple when compared to its contemporaries in terms of ease of maintenance, systems and ability to fly/operate? Many thanks.
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I seem to remember that that doctrine was that of Sir Frederick and not Avro.
HP reckoned to be able to build the Victor with a largely semi-skilled labour force. Allegedly a wing former would have 4 accurate master holes drilled by skilled labour the the hired help would then add the rest.
When BAe prepared new wing mods for the Victor K2 they used one aircraft as a template and produced 21 sets of kit that would fit only one aircraft.
Mind you I understood the Nimrod was no example of identically machined parts either.
The Vulcan had an offset doppler bay. A doppler aerial alignment required knowledge of the aircraft's fore and aft axis which was determined using the compass swing rods and a Watt's Datum Compass. A line normal to the fore-aft axis was then determined by spotting the Watt's datum on this axis, under the aircraft, and swinging the Watt's Datum head through 90 deg.
A point was then measured along the normal at a precise distance of 15 foot 4 and a quarter inches (IIRC) plus or minus a bit. The plus or minus was the known variation from the standard for a particular airframe. Clearly manufacture in those days was more measure with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an axe.
When we changed from Green Satin to the solid state DD72M it was a fit and align once and forget.
Any errors in this are due to anno dominii as it was over 40 years ago.
HP reckoned to be able to build the Victor with a largely semi-skilled labour force. Allegedly a wing former would have 4 accurate master holes drilled by skilled labour the the hired help would then add the rest.
When BAe prepared new wing mods for the Victor K2 they used one aircraft as a template and produced 21 sets of kit that would fit only one aircraft.
Mind you I understood the Nimrod was no example of identically machined parts either.
The Vulcan had an offset doppler bay. A doppler aerial alignment required knowledge of the aircraft's fore and aft axis which was determined using the compass swing rods and a Watt's Datum Compass. A line normal to the fore-aft axis was then determined by spotting the Watt's datum on this axis, under the aircraft, and swinging the Watt's Datum head through 90 deg.
A point was then measured along the normal at a precise distance of 15 foot 4 and a quarter inches (IIRC) plus or minus a bit. The plus or minus was the known variation from the standard for a particular airframe. Clearly manufacture in those days was more measure with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an axe.
When we changed from Green Satin to the solid state DD72M it was a fit and align once and forget.
Any errors in this are due to anno dominii as it was over 40 years ago.
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David Leith
The ex boss of the Goose was a Nav, is this the same guy.
Anyone know what happened to Boots Griffiths ex-CO Waddo 1967 certainly until '69, think he was promoted to Air Comm and went to FEAF or NEAF with a Staff job? I am sure that he did the air test on the Lanc (then KM-B) in '67. I remember watching that, no mid-upper turret in the early days that was WIP 5 shed Waddo needing adaption as I believe that it was not an original Lanc turret?
Anyone remember the twin Derwent snow-blo turning over near 5 shed must have been '67.
Anyone know what happened to Boots Griffiths ex-CO Waddo 1967 certainly until '69, think he was promoted to Air Comm and went to FEAF or NEAF with a Staff job? I am sure that he did the air test on the Lanc (then KM-B) in '67. I remember watching that, no mid-upper turret in the early days that was WIP 5 shed Waddo needing adaption as I believe that it was not an original Lanc turret?
Anyone remember the twin Derwent snow-blo turning over near 5 shed must have been '67.
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Tantalite,
Boots rose to at least Air Marshal and, I believe Commandant of the RAF Regiment. With a nickname of Boots, who says that the Air Sec had no sense of humour.
Flew with Boots several times. He could operate the 4 unsynchronised throttles in one hand.
Boots rose to at least Air Marshal and, I believe Commandant of the RAF Regiment. With a nickname of Boots, who says that the Air Sec had no sense of humour.
Flew with Boots several times. He could operate the 4 unsynchronised throttles in one hand.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
the author says “Avro aircraft were built by ‘simple folk for even simpler folk to fly.’” Now before either Beags or PN become apoplectic he was referring to the bicycle chain operated speedbrakes. The question I ask, was this a reputation Avro designed/built aircraft had, and in particular, was the Vulcan regarded as simple when compared to its contemporaries in terms of ease of maintenance, systems and ability to fly/operate? Many thanks.
Many of the early aircrew were ex-wartime aircrew. Many of the new intake had the requisit 5 O-levels; no grades in those days and no A-levels required for direct entrants.
The aircrew course was quite long with the early NBS course, pre-OCU, lasting a year. Later these were shortened to just 4 months but no significant change in the syllabus!
As for ease of maintenance and ability to operate it was probably designed with that in mind but it had its moments. Dozens of zeus fasteners to be undone every trip to access air charging points when a later mod simply moved the access point the other side of the bulkhead. The doppler aerial door could be opened and shut with the aircraft either fuelled or unfuelled but not opened before fuelling and closed afterwards. There were many little tricks and I am sure the engineers knew many more. No engineer was without his little note book of facts, figures and tips.
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Aircraft Design
The first V aircraft I was on was the Mk1 Victor which was, for its time, quite sophisticated with a very elaborate ac electrical system. I think that this aeroplane was in many ways over-engineered. An example of that was the extendable nose flaps which had coefficient of lift detectors that extended the nose flaps automatically in adverse circumstances but which were a nuisance. Eventually Handley Page riveted them to a permanently out position.
The Mk 2 Vulcan was much more robust but by then lessons had been learned from earlier models.
I served at Honington which had Valiants and we claimed that they were built by Vickers using the same materials and staff that they used for submarines, when demand for subs was slack.
Interestingly the Lockheed Neptune which we were using at the beginning of the 50's had immeasurably better electronics equipment than the RAF was using. The later Shackletons didn't really match up to the P2V5 in many respects. I believe that these Neptunes eventually found there to the Argentinian Air Force/Navy and were on the go at the time of the Falklands war but can't state that as definite.
The Mk 2 Vulcan was much more robust but by then lessons had been learned from earlier models.
I served at Honington which had Valiants and we claimed that they were built by Vickers using the same materials and staff that they used for submarines, when demand for subs was slack.
Interestingly the Lockheed Neptune which we were using at the beginning of the 50's had immeasurably better electronics equipment than the RAF was using. The later Shackletons didn't really match up to the P2V5 in many respects. I believe that these Neptunes eventually found there to the Argentinian Air Force/Navy and were on the go at the time of the Falklands war but can't state that as definite.
Most of the Vulcan was relatively easy to maintain, with two exceptions I had particular interest in maintaining.
Some of the components in the hydraulic panel area aft of the NWB were a nightmare to get at and change. Wirelocking them back was even harder, quite a lot of them claimed my hand and lower arm skin.
The other area that caused me probelms was a fuel coupling which was situated aft of the upper air brakes. We had to take the panels out and I was fed upside down and backwards with the c clamp spanner to tighten them tied round my neck to perevent losing it if I dropped it. Once got into a bit of a panic and it took my fellow workmates nearly 2 hours to extract me from the hole. That's the problem of being young and thin, sadly, not the case now!
Some of the components in the hydraulic panel area aft of the NWB were a nightmare to get at and change. Wirelocking them back was even harder, quite a lot of them claimed my hand and lower arm skin.
The other area that caused me probelms was a fuel coupling which was situated aft of the upper air brakes. We had to take the panels out and I was fed upside down and backwards with the c clamp spanner to tighten them tied round my neck to perevent losing it if I dropped it. Once got into a bit of a panic and it took my fellow workmates nearly 2 hours to extract me from the hole. That's the problem of being young and thin, sadly, not the case now!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
probelms was a fuel coupling which was situated aft of the upper air brakes. We had to take the panels out and I was fed upside down and backwards with the c clamp spanner to tighten them tied round my neck to perevent losing it if I dropped it. Once got into a bit of a panic and it took my fellow workmates nearly 2 hours to extract me from the hole. That's the problem of being young and thin, sadly, not the case now!