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-   -   Government Loan to Virgin Australia (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/631164-government-loan-virgin-australia.html)

Section28- BE 15th Apr 2020 10:33

kris-

Probably should NOT Do this, but- think Revenue Derived/or Delivered/able and/or Potential/ along with Hull-Values at 'this' time (ref: 9/11 as an example...) underpinning the Balance Sheet- Right NOW, with Nil 'Meaningful Revenue Contribution' let alone 'what' an airframe maybe/maybe NOT 'worth' right Now.

'The' BURN does not stop, by grounding the Show.....


"ASIC have a guide for directors which gives the penalties for trading whilst insolvent and also lists warning signs of insolvency."
- and Yes they sure DO, 'reckon' like times gone by 'that' shall be where the rubber meets the road.... with 'the' said Directors.

All the BEST to you 'all' and truly Do mean THAT- the media on shareholders concern/front-up..... 'in' my 'view' is telling!!!!

Rgds and Best Wishes TO 'All' at this time.
Stay Safe and Well.
S28- BE
(may 'pull' this sucker..... FYI)

Quote ex (kris's) AFR link:


Shareholders walk away


However, Street Talk has reported that shareholders Singapore Airlines, Etihad Airways, HNA Group and Nanshan – collectively holding 80 per cent of Virgin's equity – have decided not to pump more cash into Virgin.

The four are all dealing with their own virus-related issues. Yet a fifth shareholder, Richard Branson's Virgin Group, had not decided either way to inject more capital into the business of which it owns 10 per cent.

Mr Branson is currently seeking a £500 million ($988 million) bailout from the UK government for his Virgin Atlantic airline, in which he retains a majority stake......


wondrousbitofrough 15th Apr 2020 10:41


Originally Posted by Icarus2001 (Post 10750582)
They could be running a limited network now. Just read that there are 1500 cruise pax stuck in WA due no flights. Money for jam.

If you were the boss, wanting to save every cent possible, what would you do? Throw a few flights at them or wait for the government to offer some financial incentive to repatriate them?

After having a few close calls, they're starting to earn the nickname 'The Tenacious V'



B772 15th Apr 2020 11:04

VA buying back 35% of Velocity last October for about $700M using borrowed money has come back to haunt them. In conjunction with this loan 750 employees were retrenched to pay the interest on the loan each year.

Blueskymine 15th Apr 2020 11:09


Originally Posted by B772 (Post 10750698)
VA buying back 35% of Velocity last October for about $700M using borrowed money has come back to haunt them. In conjunction with this loan 750 employees were retrenched to pay the interest on the loan each year.


Wouldn’t the buck stop with the guy who sold it? I mean the QF FF program is a licence to print money.

non_state_actor 15th Apr 2020 11:19


VA buying back 35% of Velocity last October for about $700M using borrowed money has come back to haunt them. In conjunction with this loan 750 employees were retrenched to pay the interest on the loan each year.
I would agree that is going to look in hindsight a very poor decision. I wondered at the time how such programs can be valued at what they are given it is just a parasite on an airline and has no real independent value of it's own apart from an airline. How can it be valued at 2 Billion dollars one year and 6 months later be worth zero? How is that value accurate of a business that doesn't actually generate anything independently? I am sure it is all 100% correct from an accounting point of view but it just seemed at the time a case of the Emperor has no clothes.

Then of course there is the $9 000 000 bonus to the Velocity CEO for essentially turning up each morning. That alone is going to look pretty stark if the whole thing sinks in a couple of months.

Berealgetreal 15th Apr 2020 11:25

Hindsight bumghetti would have stayed at QF or gone to ruin some other company.

ozbiggles 15th Apr 2020 11:47

Valid points all over here. Maybe another way to look at is not how they got to where they are but what it will look like when and if they go under when it seems 1.4 Billion might be enough to get to the other side. Keeping in mind, Qantas will have their hand out too shortly.
if Virgin cease to exist we lose a large force multiplier for the economy when the wheels start to turn. Half empty terminals, in excess of 10,000 people who used to be highly taxed now on the dole, Swissport and Aerocare gone, half the income for ASA gone and a monopoly player who can set fees at what ever level they choose for pax and freight for the foreseeable future. It will be a foreign entity if a 2nd player comes in and it won’t be for a long time...one of the few sure things we can predict I think and why would they bother anyway to come up against a Government backed monopoly mostly l Australian owned entity. This is why I bought Qantas shares at 2.10 because even though I don’t want to see it, I’ve put my money on it.

I’d like to see the current shareholders take a hair cut, the board get removed for years of poor oversight and an Australian entity step in with a near clean sheet but I haven’t seen many Unicorns recently.

yigy2 15th Apr 2020 12:39

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....47992f13b.jpeg
QF received a government loan back in 1993
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....f970bf1ff.jpeg
They are 35.78% foreign owned and three times the size of Virgin Australia

Denied Justice 15th Apr 2020 12:49

If this does end up as a monopoly, the government needs to re-regulate to prevent QF from financially raping the consumer, until a genuine competitor enters the market.

longjohn 15th Apr 2020 12:49

So when Bumghetti was Father Christmas, signing off EA’s for more $$, was anyone here knocking him back?

Or Brett Godfrey before him, who pretty much gave the Engineers everything they asked for and then went for the door?

I seem to remember only a few short years ago hearing about the incredible success of ‘Il Duce’.

Maybe some of the unions could take some responsibility here...... I wonder how the AFAP feel after their fight with TT only a short time ago..... I wonder how ridiculous they feel now? Or not......

Just saying

B772 15th Apr 2020 13:03

Now we know why Tiger was let go. VA were paying approx. $2M per year for the use of the Tiger name. Unconfirmed report is that VA are paying Richard Branson north of $60M per year for the Virgin name.

junior.VH-LFA 15th Apr 2020 13:35

If QF does end up a monopoly I wouldn't imagine it will be one for long; I've been confused to be honest where the idea comes from that VA leaving the scene will mean Qantas is unchallenged forever, after all, VA is only here after Ansett fell by the wayside.

Sure, it might take a while, but it would be nice to see Alliance or another Australian owned operator take the mantle if required.

Alfie.floor 15th Apr 2020 13:35


Originally Posted by longjohn (Post 10750787)
So when Bumghetti was Father Christmas, signing off EA’s for more $$, was anyone here knocking him back?

Or Brett Godfrey before him, who pretty much gave the Engineers everything they asked for and then went for the door?

I seem to remember only a few short years ago hearing about the incredible success of ‘Il Duce’.

Maybe some of the unions could take some responsibility here...... I wonder how the AFAP feel after their fight with TT only a short time ago..... I wonder how ridiculous they feel now? Or not......

Just saying

That’s a pretty insensitive comment to make at this point in time. None of the TT pilots have been paid for the redundancy yet! So it’s not just VA pilots that are in this mess!

Toruk Macto 15th Apr 2020 13:56

Sure, it might take a while, but it would be nice to see Alliance or another Australian owned operator take the mantle if required.

Australia won’t have awhile once the green is given to get back to work . Governments will be stimulating their economies , mines will be ramped up and lots of pent up holiday makers probably looking at flying domestically .
The government won’t be happy to wait awhile for a new RPT company to find its feet , purchase aircraft and train crew . Should VA fail , probably ? Would the economy be $1.4B better off if virgin where around next year ? More than likely .

morno 15th Apr 2020 14:16


Originally Posted by yigy2 (Post 10750776)
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....47992f13b.jpeg
QF received a government loan back in 1993
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....f970bf1ff.jpeg
They are 35.78% foreign owned and three times the size of Virgin Australia

Wasn’t QF owned by the government at this time anyway? Hardly any similarities between it and what VA want now if that’s the case

Transition Layer 15th Apr 2020 14:41

Good to see we finally agree on something morno :D ;)

No Idea Either 15th Apr 2020 14:41

Showing your age Junior......

junior.VH-LFA 15th Apr 2020 15:06


Originally Posted by No Idea Either (Post 10750885)
Showing your age Junior......

No doubt, very happy to be told I'm wrong and shown why. I don't run airlines, never even worked for one.

Progress Wanchai 15th Apr 2020 15:19


Originally Posted by Toruk Macto (Post 10750840)
Sure, it might take a while, but it would be nice to see Alliance or another Australian owned operator take the mantle if required.

Australia won’t have awhile once the green is given to get back to work . Governments will be stimulating their economies , mines will be ramped up and lots of pent up holiday makers probably looking at flying domestically .
The government won’t be happy to wait awhile for a new RPT company to find its feet , purchase aircraft and train crew . Should VA fail , probably ? Would the economy be $1.4B better off if virgin where around next year ? More than likely .

The domestic travel industry generates no more income for the economy than the gambling industry or the sex industry. It simply transfers money from one region to another with no net gain. In fact because of fuel, aircraft leases, insurance, internationally owned hotel chains, car hire companies, etc there’s a net loss for the nation.
International tourism is different. But it’s debatable whether we’re a net importer or exporter of international tourist dollars.

This goes to the very heart of what’s happening in Australia. 30 years of uninterrupted debt generated growth has rewired us. We’ve reset to relatively high income service careers and virtually abandoned manufacturing and producing occupations that actually generate wealth for the nation. Apart from primary industries and mining our major net importer of income is the education sector, along with the immigration sector. The last two will be in hiatus for quite awhile along with the cheap credit that has fueled our misconception that we’ve generated wealth.

We’ll all get through the other side of this in good shape regardless of what happens to our respective airlines, it’ll just be a different shape. We’ll all have less disposable income which will swing the pendulum away from service industries back to production and manufacturing. It’s probably a reset that was overdue and would have happened anyway.

dontgive2FACs 15th Apr 2020 17:17


Originally Posted by Progress Wanchai (Post 10750930)
The domestic travel industry generates no more income for the economy than the gambling industry or the sex industry.

Gives me an idea for an airline... Leather-bound crew with stilettos and on board poker machines!

Talk about force multiplier! :hmm:


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