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-   -   Government Loan to Virgin Australia (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/631164-government-loan-virgin-australia.html)

Berealgetreal 6th Apr 2020 04:25

Amazing how many people on here using “tax payer dollars” instead of self interest and career progression as their reasons for which their tiny competitor should be deprived of help to continue trading.

Better off saying “can’t wait for them to collapse I’ll have a good chance of fast tracking my command that was stolen by those pesky JQ pilots”.

Just wait and see the low ball conditions that come in after Virgin and good luck seeing another payrise after that! Alan will get his barrel out for you then! Project Sunrise? More like project Sunset!

Children of Alan indeed, hating him one minute loving him the next.

34R 6th Apr 2020 04:55


Originally Posted by Berealgetreal (Post 10740882)
Amazing how many people on here using “tax payer dollars” instead of self interest and career progression as their reasons for which their tiny competitor should be deprived of help to continue trading.

Better off saying “can’t wait for them to collapse I’ll have a good chance of fast tracking my command that was stolen by those pesky JQ pilots”.

Just wait and see the low ball conditions that come in after Virgin and good luck seeing another payrise after that! All will get his barrel out for you then! Project Sunrise? More like project Sunset!

Children of Alan indeed, hating him one minute loving him the next.

If believing that is helping you get through this, and I really hope you guys do, then each to his own.

Nobody I work with, (not that I’m working anymore) has suggested anything that could even be remotely construed as pleasure or some sort of perverse satisfaction in what VA are currently enduring. Personally I think we will be there before too long as well.

I have a lot of dear friends across a lot of departments at VA and I call them every day to see how they are. They call me and offer the same support.
It’s horrible this whole thing has been turned into a VA vs QF thing. Personally I think it’s unnecessarily been portrayed that way, but with time and emotion has now become some sort of self sustaining force that has gotten out of control.

Anyhow, not that you seem prepared to listen to anybody from the evil galactic empire, but I extend to you and ALL of your colleagues nothing but positive thoughts and a desire to see all of us back at work

ruprecht 6th Apr 2020 04:57


Originally Posted by Berealgetreal (Post 10740882)
Amazing how many people on here using “tax payer dollars” instead of self interest and career progression as their reasons for which their tiny competitor should be deprived of help to continue trading.

Better off saying “can’t wait for them to collapse I’ll have a good chance of fast tracking my command that was stolen by those pesky JQ pilots”.

Just wait and see the low ball conditions that come in after Virgin and good luck seeing another payrise after that! All will get his barrel out for you then! Project Sunrise? More like project Sunset!

Children of Alan indeed, hating him one minute loving him the next.

What crap....

Im with QF. No-one, and I repeat, no-one that I know in QF wants Virgin to fail; we all have mates in Virgin. Everyone I know is just trying to get by and make sense of this stand-down situation. To suggest that some of us are seeing this whole situation as an opportunity for “fast tracking command” is ludicrous.

Paragraph377 6th Apr 2020 05:19


Originally Posted by ruprecht (Post 10740897)
What crap....

Im with QF. No-one, and I repeat, no-one that I know in QF wants Virgin to fail; we all have mates in Virgin. Everyone I know is just trying to get by and make sense of this stand-down situation. To suggest that some of us are seeing this whole situation as an opportunity for “fast tracking command” is ludicrous.

Agreed. Doesn’t make sense as there will be no Commands for fast tracking. We are entering a Depression. Just think about it for a minute - Delta is losing $60m per day, United $100m per day. The Orange Man has agreed to a $25b bailout yet United said it will still go to the wall. Bringing it back to Australia, a paltry $719m is on offer. Peanuts, and not enough. VA is gone. If this situation were to go on for another 6 months QF will be in the same position. Businesses, travellers, holiday makers, tourism and market confidence will not return the day that the announcement ‘COVID free’ is made. Nobody will have any money. We are in for years of pain....







ruprecht 6th Apr 2020 05:31

..and, just like that, the Prophet of Doom arrives.

TBM-Legend 6th Apr 2020 11:11

BRITISH TURN ON RICHARD BRANSON OVER FAILURE TO HELP STAFF

written by Dylan Nicholson March 20, 2020Sir Richard Branson is facing a mounting backlash in his home country over his decision to order Virgin Atlantic staff to take eight weeks of unpaid leave and then ask for a government bailout.

MPs and the press have attacked the British Virgin Group founder, estimated to be worth £11.2 billion, for not spending his personal fortune to help employees.

​​​​​​“Eight weeks at the £94 statutory sick pay would cost £754 per employee. There are 8,571 employees in Virgin Airlines. If all of them took eight weeks unpaid leave that would be a cost of £6.4 million."

Paragraph377 6th Apr 2020 11:17


Originally Posted by TBM-Legend (Post 10741155)

BRITISH TURN ON RICHARD BRANSON OVER FAILURE TO HELP STAFF

written by Dylan Nicholson March 20, 2020Sir Richard Branson is facing a mounting backlash in his home country over his decision to order Virgin Atlantic staff to take eight weeks of unpaid leave and then ask for a government bailout.

MPs and the press have attacked the British Virgin Group founder, estimated to be worth £11.2 billion, for not spending his personal fortune to help employees.

​​​​​​“Eight weeks at the £94 statutory sick pay would cost £754 per employee. There are 8,571 employees in Virgin Airlines. If all of them took eight weeks unpaid leave that would be a cost of £6.4 million."

Its amazing isn’t it, the Pied Piper has finally been recognised for the parasite that he is. About time the Branson acolytes woke up to the fact that he is in it for himself and couldn’t give a rats arse about the employees.

Paragraph377 6th Apr 2020 11:20


Originally Posted by ruprecht (Post 10740909)
..and, just like that, the Prophet of Doom arrives.

That comment shows just how ignorant you are Cinderella. It’s ok, you go to bed tonight and dream about nice things, old Para is being pessimistic again. Come talk to me in 2 years time mate! See you then. Cheers

ruprecht 6th Apr 2020 11:34


Originally Posted by Paragraph377 (Post 10741168)
That comment shows just how ignorant you are Cinderella. It’s ok, you go to bed tonight and dream about nice things, old Para is being pessimistic again. Come talk to me in 2 years time mate! See you then. Cheers

Cinderella...? :confused:

SydAusSLF 6th Apr 2020 11:40

It's sad but it looks like VAs days are numbered, with new beginnings comes new opportunities and ways of looking st things. As a regular passenger (and one time pilot) I'd actually love to see this downtime in the industry to fast track the removal of restrictions on AU/NZ borders, allowing seamless transition between countries from domestic terminals. This allows both ANZ and QF to compete truly and fairly across both countries, and may just allow both carriers to survive domestically in the new post-Covid world.

Alfie.floor 6th Apr 2020 12:10


Originally Posted by Paragraph377 (Post 10741162)
Its amazing isn’t it, the Pied Piper has finally been recognised for the parasite that he is. About time the Branson acolytes woke up to the fact that he is in it for himself and couldn’t give a rats arse about the employees.

Agreed!
He was once famous for saying “look after your employees and they will look after your business”
If there was ever a time to live by your words this would be it.

longjohn 6th Apr 2020 15:03


Originally Posted by Berealgetreal (Post 10740882)

Just wait and see the low ball conditions that come in after Virgin and good luck seeing another payrise after that! Alan will get his barrel out for you then! Project Sunrise? More like project Sunset!

Children of Alan indeed, hating him one minute loving him the next.

I have a lot of good mates in VAH, many ex AN who really don’t deserve this twice....

But.. I’ll call a spade a spade. It was DJ that, along with Impulse started the pilot race to the bottom in this country. Bit rich to suggest they are now the buttress against low pay...

AerialPerspective 6th Apr 2020 16:54


Originally Posted by TBM-Legend (Post 10739781)
Propping up failing businesses is a road to nowhere. Please look at the Australian car manufacturing industry and the outcome of hundreds of millions spent on them. VA losses are gigantic by any measure. They can not keep using a credit card to survive. Sooner or later you reach the limit and then in their case demand another card...

There will be another airline in Australia. Upgrade Alliances AOC and put some B737's on it and voila..[QF sells their bit in this case]

The car industry was a little different. It provided a manufacturing base and the ENTIRE world subsidises it's car companies, the US by about 10 times what we did, Germany 3-4 times what we did. The government just made a conscious decision to stop subsidising, put them on an uneven playing field and let it collapse essentially. Being subsidiaries, they just pulled out and closed up shop. Hold and Ford building cars that no one wanted was a failure of management but in some ways, an excuse, as thousands of Ford Territories were sold and lots of Commodores and associated models.

We kind of have the reverse here now because with the airlines, we don't subsidise them (except for some regional routes that wouldn't be offered by anyone otherwise) but every other damn country that has harangued successive Australian Governments into liberalising aviation has RETAINED ownership control of its airlines so they were full of crap and before anyone declares open skies and letting SQ in, yeh, of course SQ pushes that barrow because they come from an Island the size of a postage stamp and have no domestic network to use as a base so they want to go around and cannibalise everyone else's market and cry 'free trade'. It would be a different song if they were on a large land mass with a big domestic network.

AerialPerspective 6th Apr 2020 17:14


Originally Posted by PoppaJo (Post 10739955)
The guys in Singapore, Vietnam or Japan won’t have choice. No Union No Choice.

Jetstar Asia will probably slash Pilot Remuneration considerably. Expect 10 or 20% cuts. Tiger Singapore did this about a decade ago, didn’t go down well, but the industry didn’t crash, just high fuel prices. As the market was relatively stable and big twin jobs were available, they lost half the captains almost instantly.

Back then, you cut pilot wages and everyone walked and went to Qatar or Emirates. Management will be well aware that there isn’t many jobs for those to escape to now, so the wider group will just have to suck it up.

I have been talking to many who say they hope their company will ask for Voluntary Redundancies, as they are 2-3 years away from retiring, but it’s going to be a slow and miserable last few years of the career, so take the cash and run.

Obviously they can’t chop and change current agreements here as such, but I imagine it would be more culling, than attempting to change conditions. Eg. Jetstar entire 787 fleet parked, sold and pilots made redundant. The long haul leisure market is the pain point, Air Asia X is probably finished. They could barely pay their leases last month according to some reports. Scoot will be the long term survivor, although I might be nervous if I was on the 787 there.

I think it's more likely the JQ 787s will go to QF, who will offload the A330-200s. If the downturn is that severe, they may be able to get rid of all the A330s and with the 747s gone it will be a mainline A380, 787, 737 fleet, with perhaps the A350 coming in to do Sunrise if it goes ahead and replacing the A380 sooner rather than later if the one-stops are as profitable as PER-LHR.

Of course, the problem will be who will want to buy the A330s and A380s. This could offer the opportunity for a post-Covid write-down of their value and some tax breaks.

AerialPerspective 6th Apr 2020 17:37


Originally Posted by normanton (Post 10740042)
Advertising when there is no flying, and they are short of money. Disaster. They need some administrators in there to save what they can of it.

I was thinking the same thing. If this new bloke is so brilliant then he might want to demonstrate more professional communication standards... in the last week we have seen the following:
- Complaining to the ACCC for statements made by Qantas suggesting they don't have enough cash and insisting that they have $1Bn available and can weather the storm;
- If that's true then why, within days of basically saying everything's hunky-dory why would it be necessary, without warning, to make Tiger's entire pilot group redundant?;
- Not even a week after the initial complaint about Qantas' comments, insists they need $1.4Bn from the Government to keep afloat - so, in other words, Qantas was correct? (the defence for any alleged damage via words is truth);
- Now, so desperately short of cash and dying in a ditch without $1.4Bn from the government, they run FULL PAGE COLOUR Ads in major newspapers??? Not a good look when you're crying poor.

Putting the debate about whether or not to save it (VA) aside, at the very least, they score a 2/10 for professionalism in the mixed messages and contradictions of the last week alone.

AerialPerspective 6th Apr 2020 17:38


Originally Posted by altocu (Post 10740024)
"Danielle Keighery, Virgin Australia’s chief experience officer"...

There's part of the problem right there and not just at VA either.

Yes, weasel word titles and too many 'specialists' and 'advisers' that are neither in practice and contribute little other than ensuring the standard weasel words are worked into every meeting.

AerialPerspective 6th Apr 2020 17:43


Originally Posted by Paragraph377 (Post 10740087)
Almost as stupid as the title ‘specialist’. Safety specialist, Training specialist, Market, Brand and Research specialist, Alliance specialist and so the nauseating list went on.......
What a load of fluffy wank and one of the reason they were in the shit financially - too many overrated, unnecessary or excess positions that did SFA. The Viallge Idiots and executive tossers fostered this stupid culture where mates were rewarded with ‘specialist’ roles and titles and paid to do jobs that were not necessary for the organisation. Far too many layers at VA.

Almost as silly as some titles like Guest Services Operator... what are the operating... conjures imagery of someone behind a check in or service desk pulling levers, turning dials and watching the row of coloured lights come on and go off while bursts of steam emanate from around them and out pops a boarding pass into a slot.

AerialPerspective 6th Apr 2020 17:49


Originally Posted by Lapon (Post 10740124)
They have demonstrated an interest three times in as many decades, and each failed. They are smart enough to say nothing, do nothing and leave it that. They have just been bailed out again are making redundancies. Any desire for a fourth attempt will be tempered by the means to do so.

I would rather see VA continue and return as a simpler version of itself, which is where I think they were trying to head under thier new leadership.

Technically that's not true, they haven't been bailed out. They've been provided with capital/loan by the government. They were profitable before this and would have continued to be. As good a fit as NZ would be I doubt it'll happen because I don't see a Kiwi government saying "Hold on, we just extended you a loan and you want to have another crack at the AU market again..."

QFcrew 6th Apr 2020 18:14

Interesting comments about Branson .... he is the smallest shareholder in Virgin Atlantic, Delta and KLM-Air France own 80%. He is also the smallest shareholder in Virgin Australia. He is very good at selling his brand, but not a major player in aviation anymore.

DanV2 6th Apr 2020 22:05


Originally Posted by QFcrew (Post 10741665)
Interesting comments about Branson .... he is the smallest shareholder in Virgin Atlantic, Delta and KLM-Air France own 80%. He is also the smallest shareholder in Virgin Australia. He is very good at selling his brand, but not a major player in aviation anymore.

That KLM/AF deal fell through in late 2019. Branson is still 51% shareholder of VS.

Source: https://www.ft.com/content/0a67e5f4-...3-6303645ac406


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