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-   -   Government Loan to Virgin Australia (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/631164-government-loan-virgin-australia.html)

The Bullwinkle 4th Apr 2020 03:39


Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink (Post 10738975)
Advocate for an industry wide package (akin to the US) to ensure that both airlines can get through this crisis in the interests of the aviation industry, the tourism industry and the economy more broadly.

Precisely.

Dookie on Drums 4th Apr 2020 03:45


Originally Posted by The Bullwinkle (Post 10738977)
Precisely.

I just think you are clutching at straws here. The Government is not going to invest in a dying venture. If QF and VA were on an equal playing field then sure. The fact is VAH are a bad investment. Multiple losses over the years etc. What more do you want?

Toruk Macto 4th Apr 2020 03:48

Aviation in Australia is akin to a blood sport , no doubt AJ is a rabid dog trying desperately to get at VAís throat for the kill .

We not in a fair world , itís more like a war footing where we put aside our normal competitive behaviour and do whatís best for the country .

The way VA has been managed, in normal times it may deserve to be left to fend for itself .
This is not normal times , the government need to do whatís best for the future not whatís right for now .

TACQANAVIAVEC 4th Apr 2020 03:59

Agree. Another point to consider that the longer this goes it's almost assured both airlines would return as smaller versions of them selves meaning lay offs. Like you mentioned if both airlines were on an equal footing then bailing out VA would seem worth while in the interest of saving jobs however why should the bottom layer of QF's employees be laid off at the expense off keeping alive out chronically miss managed Airline owned mainly by three foreign carriers?

I say let its three foreign backers bail VA out and if it fails well there's probably going to be a lot of jobs in QF's and Jetstar and eventually another carrier will replace Virgin just as it replaced Ansett back in the days.

Bug Smasher Smasher 4th Apr 2020 03:59

You guys seem to be missing the point(s).

1) No one (with a heart) at Qantas wants to see VA go under. It could very well be any one of us in that position and I canít imagine any one of us would wish that situation on their worst enemy. As has been said, there are a very small few people on here who may think otherwise but I can guarantee they donít speak for the rest of us.

2) Qantas as a business doesnít want to see VA go under. Better the devil you know than the devil you donít.

das Uber Soldat 4th Apr 2020 04:00


Originally Posted by The Bullwinkle (Post 10738933)
For all you "Angels" out there, Virgin was in the process of rectifying the atrocities of the last decade and were making many changes which were taking the company in the right direction.
Now, a "Black Swan" event comes along which threatens not just Virgin but indeed every airline in the world, your beloved QANTAS included, and all you want to do is kick a man when he's down.
I'm sure the Leprechaun is vey proud of your actions but you're actually quite disgusting!

What are you on about. There is no 'kicking' old mate when he's down, but holding what he says to account. Its terrible whats happening to not just Virgin but the industry, but that doesn't give you licence to just say whatever you want without consequence.

The failure of Virgin, if it occurs, is not the fault of this Government. Far out.

And for all this braying about people on here who want to see Virgin fail, I haven't seen one yet. Care to provide example?

RedClaw 4th Apr 2020 04:00

I love the fact that everyone has a crystal ball. I love the fact that we are in the middle of a health crisis that is causing the biggest economic reset in history, and all you can do is discuss how a company will collapse taking with it 1000s of people.

Yes JB spent a truckload of money, and yes the company has tried every strategy to compete with the competition, and yes itís ok to take sides, you love VA or you love Qantas, Tiger, Jetstar or whoever... I hate the bulldogs,, but I donít want their team to be taken out of the NRL comp because they go bankrupt, they provide for a good competition.

If you all think that Aviation as a whole does not need more cash through this... you are delusional, including Qantas the whole industry will need support now, in 3 months time, in 6 months time and most likely the next 2 years. The Australian economy will need affordable air services to recover. For the love of god, let the industry leaders and government sort this out, it is truly above your pay scale..

Dookie on Drums 4th Apr 2020 04:02


Originally Posted by Bug Smasher Smasher (Post 10738985)
You guys seem to be missing the point(s).

1) No one (with a heart) at Qantas wants to see VA go under. It could very well be any one of us in that position and I canít imagine any one of us would wish that situation on their worst enemy. As has been said, there are a very small few people on here who may think otherwise but I can guarantee they donít speak for the rest of us.

2) Qantas as a business doesnít want to see VA go under. Better the devil you know than the devil you donít.


Absolute rubbish. No one wants to see people lose their jobs. The rest is just business.

The Bullwinkle 4th Apr 2020 04:05


The Government is not going to invest in a dying venture.
It could be argued that due to COVID-19, most airlines around the world are dying ventures and yet most other governments are supporting their nations airlines. Why should Virgin be any different?

This is not normal times , the government need to do what’s best for the future not what’s right for now.
Exactly. Everybody is well aware of how badly managed Virgin was over the previous decade, but that was being turned around and Joyce knows it was.
He is obviously afraid of the transformation at Virgin but taking advantage of a worldwide crisis to try and destroy a competitor, as well as the livelihoods of the employees is abhorrent and despicable, yet not surprising from someone of such limited moral fibre.

crosscutter 4th Apr 2020 04:07

I think the less said the better..and this will be my last post on this thread.

It’s a sh*t spot. I wish everyone in Virgin the best, as I do the industry. Good luck to us all.

Dookie on Drums 4th Apr 2020 04:08


Originally Posted by The Bullwinkle (Post 10738989)
It could be argued that due to COVID-19, most airlines around the world are dying ventures and yet most other governments are supporting their nations airlines. Why should Virgin be any different?.

Their past history. They have lost sh!tloads year after year. We have Qantas so that is supported and that is that.

The Bullwinkle 4th Apr 2020 04:10


Originally Posted by Dookie on Drums (Post 10738991)
Their past history. They have lost sh!tloads year after year. We have Qantas so that is supported and that is that.

Can’t get over the past can you.

Fatguyinalittlecoat 4th Apr 2020 04:13

VA don't deserve saving anymore than any other business. COVID or not. It may not feel it, but it's not personal.
I don't want to see VA fail. That would mean restarting the fight against "crap money, pay for your training" type operators again. That's no fun. We all wish you the best if luck.

Dookie on Drums 4th Apr 2020 04:13


Originally Posted by The Bullwinkle (Post 10738992)
Canít get over the past can you.

I can but I am not blinded by it like you apparently are

The Bullwinkle 4th Apr 2020 04:16


and that is that.
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/4695332...8-bff561be2f0d


TACQANAVIAVEC 4th Apr 2020 04:23

People don't consider Joyce objective is purely in the interest of his business performance and by de-facto those employees that will have to be laid off when flying eventually resumes?. I'm sure most at QF don't wish their colleagues at VA to be out of work but would also side on wanting to keep as many of their lot with a job to return too.

The equation is simple: VA goes down = All of QF's employees very likely come back and many at VA's are employed at QF' and JQ just as it did happen after Ansett's collapse. Again I don't imply Joyce is doing it out of the kindness of his heart but purely as a business leader looking out for the performance of his business under very difficult and unique circumstances.

wheels_down 4th Apr 2020 04:23

They canít cede their 35% Corporate Market share if they go back to 2001, because they will go back to 5%, and are fighting against Jetstar. They did not have a competitor with 60 aircraft back then, because that was them.

The corp revenue is key going forward. Itís also a key driver in Velocity, and itís 200m earnings.

Its just unnecessary overheads that exist that is the issue, the Airbus and itís SH International network. Itís no trade secret that he is aware of this, and itís certainly no secret that in his first year his intentions are clearly on this.

Three crew bases will pull enormous cost out. Kiwi flying will be obviously cut or to a basic point to point. I wouldnít bother with Japan but the partnership could remain. Tiger is clearly done, so more cost gone. ATR program gone. All contracts and leases have just been negotiated. Forget Bali. Forget Pacific Islands. Thatís a large chunk of expenditure gone.

The MAX order is clearly going to be shelved until late this decade.

737 can do Canberra. Inefficient, yes, but still ahead once the ATR overheads removed.

*60-70 737s
*4/5 Triples

Dive into their past results, you can really see the issues lie around International and a Fleet complexity.

Icarus2001 4th Apr 2020 04:38


Tiger is clearly done,
No from what PS has said. The pilots have been made redundant but not the cabin crew. The Tiger airframes will be flown by VA pilots, that is the plan. Not sure about the A320s though. VARA 320 pilots?

Chris2303 4th Apr 2020 04:51

Why are people suggesting cabotage?

All it does is adds extra costs for little revenue, and the problem of getting domestic pax through the international terminal. It also ruins connections at (say) Sydney.

I can't see UA or AA rushing to recommence South Pacific flying either

TACQANAVIAVEC 4th Apr 2020 04:53

I think you'll find most of QF's drivers here are those who likely find them selves at the bottom of the barrel and thus the ones in the firing line when flying eventually resumes at a smaller scale.

People here seem to forget that theres another side of the story with real people, family and commitments at stake who, should VA be spared with tax payers money will literally mean sacrificing those at the bottom of the barrel across QF and their subsidiaries at the expense of saving a badly managed business.

I don't wish my colleagues at VA to be out of work but I also side with those colleagues of mine at QF who are staring at possibly not having a job to come back too. History shows many at VA's would be needed at QF and JQ to fill the void left behind and eventually another airlines would rise from the ashes to provide further employment.


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