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Originally Posted by *Lancer*
(Post 10156180)
Tankengine, QSL defined benefit super is based on a pilot’s final average salary. Lower final average salary = less super. So if pilots are working the minimum, rather than the maximum number of hours = less super. Not sure about the senior 744 F/Os who may displace to 380 on low divisors. Different kettle of fish. |
My theory is that the 747 will be around until “project sunrise” is about to arrive giving a few more options. In any case it will be a ****fight. Of course if fuel prices spike then it will go on time or earlier. |
Originally Posted by Tankengine
(Post 10156321)
My theory is that the 747 will be around until “project sunrise” is about to arrive giving a few more options. |
For those interested. Memo: 152 new hires planned next financial year 18-19. Already taken over 200. |
Redundancy for the 744 won't happen. Displacing from the A380 would be cheaper than the cost of replacing everyone from below due to the cascading upwards effect. Probably 2 courses run to displace, 5 or 6 to replace after a redundancy. If someone want to stir the pot, they'd be better off retiring.
And in truth, I'd much rather they offer redundancy, but I'm almost positive they won't. |
Originally Posted by SandyPalms
(Post 10159417)
Redundancy for the 744 won't happen. Displacing from the A380 would be cheaper than the cost of replacing everyone from below due to the cascading upwards effect. Probably 2 courses run to displace, 5 or 6 to replace after a redundancy. If someone want to stir the pot, they'd be better off retiring.
And in truth, I'd much rather they offer redundancy, but I'm almost positive they won't. Under the Qantas long haul EBA, are they able to displace of a fleet (A380) in order to adjust the manning on another fleet (744) ? |
Originally Posted by JPJP
(Post 10159438)
I’m curious Sandy. Generally (at various airlines) a displacement bid entitles the ‘displaced’ to a host of expensive options - The right to take any seat that they can hold in seniority, moving allowances et. The domino effect below them (the people that they displace) is the same. Generally causing an expensive waterfall effect. As you said. Under the Qantas long haul EBA, are they able to displace of a fleet (A380) in order to adjust the manning on another fleet (744) ? In this case, the 744/Capt will displace an A380/Capt. That A380/Capt will most likely bid for 787 (as the next 787 bid will most likely include a Sydney Base) which is a training course that must be done irrespective of the 744 RIN. So there you go, 2 courses and the RIN (in this one case) is finished. The domino effect you speak of in this case, doesn't happen. The same can be said for the A330 as training is going at pace on that aircraft also, however there would be an extra course in that scenario, but thats only 3. With a redundancy, that 787 course will be filled by an A330/Capt, which will be filled by a 737/Capt which will be filled by an A330/FO which will be filled by a 737/FO which will be....................... and so on. In my opinion, this RIN will save them money. The way I see it, they won't offer redundancy. |
Originally Posted by SandyPalms
(Post 10159455)
Generally speaking you are correct. In QF there are some complexities as the displacing pilots must be "NAMED" in the Reduction in Numbers process, which is just as it sounds, their name must appear on the Flight Standing Order.
In this case, the 744/Capt will displace an A380/Capt. That A380/Capt will most likely bid for 787 (as the next 787 bid will most likely include a Sydney Base) which is a training course that must be done irrespective of the 744 RIN. So there you go, 2 courses and the RIN (in this one case) is finished. The domino effect you speak of in this case, doesn't happen. The same can be said for the A330 as training is going at pace on that aircraft also, however there would be an extra course in that scenario, but thats only 3. With a redundancy, that 787 course will be filled by an A330/Capt, which will be filled by a 737/Capt which will be filled by an A330/FO which will be filled by a 737/FO which will be....................... and so on. In my opinion, this RIN will save them money. The way I see it, they won't offer redundancy. |
It would appear that the forebears that negotiated this element of the contract, did so with a clear understanding of how fickle airline management can be.
Anything that adds cost and complexity to a furlough process is by design a worthy thing. hiring pilots and 'down training' will make for an interesting optic! Can Qantas management circumvent it? |
I dunno
But it does seem like qf has had the knack of hiring some variations of ages etc, given the supply pool. unless you happen to work for a subsidiary that is, of course |
It depends a little too on whether there is more than one RIN. If there is only one RIN then the most senior 744 pilot named displaces the most junior A380 Captain. Then the next most senior displaces the next most junior. There comes a ‘cut over’ point at which the 744 Captain will still have Pilots junior to them on the A380 but those A380 pilots have already been displaced. Therefore the 744 pilot can’t displace to the A380. I agree with Tankengine. There is a cutover point also on the return of service from the 744 driver displacing. If Qantas only gets 12-18 months out of them before having to re-train for their position once they retire they may decide to throw a couple of hundred K at them to get them to go. Certainly a few of 744 Captains I’ve spoken to reckon they don’t intend to stick around too long if they’re not offered cash to go. Essentially they’ll ‘earn’ what they should have received via VR and then go. Double training will occur anyway. eg if the RIN were done today, no one on the 744 below about seniority 130 would get to the A380. |
A senior flight ops manager is on the record as saying that he doesn't believe that a RIN is going to happen. Add to that the last base ops update which stated that most 747 pilots will have "promotional opportunities" on to other fleets including the 737, with a few for whom "other options" will have to be found.
I find this to be very presumptuous and possibly a not so subtle attempt by Flight Ops to avoid the RIN procedure very clearly delineated in the CA. It presumes that many FO's and SO's who have hitherto avoided the "promotional opportunities" of the 737 and even the A330 till now are going to bid for them. None of the Captains on the type will consider the 787 a "promotional opportunity" either. So with few or no slots on an already over-subscribed A380 in each rank, no vertical promotion on to either the 787 or the A380 permitted (at this time), one wonders where these promotional slots are? If no-one bids off the type a RIN is inevitable. Be advised accordingly |
Originally Posted by Tankengine
(Post 10159484)
Except for the retraining once the Rinned 747 Captain retires six months after checking out on the 380 due to the f$&@ you attitude most of us have about management now! |
Originally Posted by H-Dog
(Post 10159605)
Have heard this mentioned a few times, that guys are going to stick it to management by taking a slot and then leaving half way through training or shortly after finishing. If you think management will lose any sleep over this you are delusional. The only people that you will be sticking it to are your fellow pilots below you in seniority who otherwise would have had that spot. Please don’t do this. |
Originally Posted by Tuner 2
(Post 10159648)
Hear hear. You are also sticking it to your colleagues who now have to fly more hours and be assigned more work because you didn't show up
Remember, they are going to get rid of the Jumbo, no option to stay on it for a planned year or two longer so if timing means doing a course and then retiring then that is what some will do. The only effect on junior pilots is that of waiting for a slot based on seniority, ops normal. On the other hand if VR caused anyone to leave early then junior pilots would benefit! |
Originally Posted by H-Dog
(Post 10159605)
Have heard this mentioned a few times, that guys are going to stick it to management by taking a slot and then leaving half way through training or shortly after finishing. If you think management will lose any sleep over this you are delusional. The only people that you will be sticking it to are your fellow pilots below you in seniority who otherwise would have had that spot. Please don’t do this. |
If you want to fly a 380 , move to Emirates ! |
If you want to fly a 380 , move to Emirates ! However to protect their current income they’ll have to move to the 380 as the 787 will be an overall pay reduction. |
Don't wanna fly a bus?
Diddums |
I have never seen anyone worried about senior pilots leaving early before! https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif |
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