Didn't QF try and split the international and domestic in a similar manner to VOZ last year but couldn't due the sales act?
One mans sham is another's treasure.

+1 pba. Fascinating viewing. And will clearly not be lost on the current govt.

The circles BGA is running in are surely getting smaller and smaller...

And if Joyce shores up some financial assistance via his media and political campaign tearing at the heart strings of the patriotic Aussie, where will he use the money? My bet is not on Qantas Redtail side of the business...

It's hard to see the Gov't handing over a debt guarantee or taking an equity stake without some guarantees in return that the money will stay in Australia. I would expect they would seek representation on the board, ie. Gov't appointed/recommended board member.

Something does tell me, the Joyce/Clifford experiment is over, regardless of what happens with the Gov't

Funny Jim, I was just thinking the same thing. I was thinking the money would go straight to Jetstar Botswana or similar.

On the subject of J*, that cool 60 mill that was heading to the Japan venture, has there been any word on if that transaction has happened or will happen? Things have gone very quiet on that front since the latest Al freak show rolled into town. How can you cry the poor victim at home when you can pump that sort of money into overseas ventures?

Has the boy called wolf to many times?

Hope the government are asking the same questions! :hmm:

Sorry SUB, that's another $60,000,000. Not only that, their voting rights remain unchanged for the privilege.

Any Australian taxpayer $$ will be making their way to the pokets of the crony capitalists of Asia, and not be reinvested in the Australian based businesses.

How much money has invested in J*?

How much have they invested in international ops/bases for J*?

They have introduced a business class for J*, what innovations have come to QF mainline?

How much has the bleeding heart of AJ invested in mainline ops?

The truth is out there, if you search in the right places.....

Robbing the red roo piggy banks to play with his little train set.

Yep, it's out there alright..... and I think people are finally catching on, until then
I guess it's on with the show :)

That was truly disturbing

Well, regarding that song, what has been seen, can never be unseen.

Now, regarding AJs search for money. If the government gives him some, I really hope they demand it stays with mainline, and can't go to the ammmaaazzzzzing business. I really hope someone does their home work.

Trying to get my head around this. I'm confused.

First Virgin wasn't even a competitor, then it was "2 aircraft in for every one of theirs" (We've got more money and size, they should back down or go under).

Now its: "....excuse me Australian taxpayer....errrhhmm ....could you cough up some cash we've stuffed this up..WE NEED THE BLOODY CASH NOOOWW!!! arrrghhh...".

1. No one held a gun to anyone's head to hold the 65% position to the detriment of yields.
2. The ownership and structural changes at VA didn't exactly happen yesterday. It's been going for a while you know.
3. If other companies stuff up do they call the Prime Minister asking for cash?
4. If you're going to play poker start out with something smaller. 2 for 1 was gambling. It didn't work, enough.

Enough.

And I'm just waiting for the ASX, or some one similar to ask the same questions, but AJ seems to be able to create crisis after crisis, send millions off shore to insane ventures,and no one asks any questions.

I can't believe he has paid off everybody, so I just assume he has a brilliant PR machine....that in my opinion, just might be about to collapse around his ears.

Is it Karma? Running to Costello's office to stop the government helping Ansett and 14,000 employees? Probably a tad over the top wasn't it?

One might speculate that Virgin then thrived and once JB got the shaft for the 30 years service the sliding doors lined up perfectly.

Must say reading the bit about Costello's office and the Ansett collapse stunned me a little.

Indeed, I believe Senator Xenophon was onto the game over 12 months ago. Senator Xenophon wraps it all up in the second reading speech pdf format (raw APH web format) in Parliament for The Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011. This speech provides a detailed commentary on the history of Qantas International and its woos - self inflicted since the beginning of the Dixon era. This is absolutely required reading to understand the history of this issue.

Transcript of Senate Inquiry hearing 6th Feb 2012 - Senator Xenophon quizzes Alan Joyce on Jetconnect and who pays their fuel bills.

Bonus credit: Senator Xenophon's submissions to ACCC for the Emirates Authorisation: HERE and HERE.

err doesnt bga's bonus have a market share component to it? vaguely remember something about that. may be thats why

Type of government support for Qantas is important
 

Comments by Moody's underscore how the Abbott government's response to Qantas' pleas for financial assistance will be crucial to whether the airline maintains its prized investment-grade credit rating.........

Unless Qantas management adopted measures to counteract the fall in yields, Moody's said, the deteriorating conditions would ''continue to exert downward pressure on the airline's credit metrics''......

Read more: Type of government support for Qantas is important, Moody's says

Qantas want taxpayer funded bailouts whilst sending Aussie jobs offshore???

Exactly. Joyce and co have made their bed. Sadly I'm in that bed too.

Rumor many years ago was James stopped a TV investigation into his wife's connection with a company associated with Qantas . Rumors of over inflated lease payments to Dixon and Co's companies .
Middle management numbers that are out of control , being squeezed for money every 6 months by our northern brothers ( which is a very old triad trick) and senior managers increasing their bonus in good years and bad .
Now it appears they can't offshore jobs quick enough to keep the trough full ? It's been going on for a long time but time may be running out. Good luck

Qantas's own ill health
 

Qantas was once a great company! I have had the pleasure of working for this once respected airline when it was the envy of the world. That was before privatisation. Ask yourself: what company has succeeded in wealth and prosperity since they became a privatised? What company has given better service to its' customers or viewed its' employees as a valuable asset and not a cost cutting exercise once they were floated on the stock exchange? Telstra? Brambles? TNT? Commonwealth Bank?
When Qantas was privatised, it lost its' heart. It was no longer a company, it became a share holders money purse. Since the floating of Qantas it has declined rapidly and become a shell of its' former self. No longer our countries number one icon to the Australian people who were proud of it - one of the worlds most recognised icons and for decade after decade Australia's most respected and trusted icon. Geoff Dixon started the demise of our Aussie Icon and Alan Joyce has continued its' abet in its' decline in dropping a huge 47%. An enormous disappointment to the many, many employees whose dedication, pride and hands-on hard work are the real backbone of the company, the ones that got the company to its' best by being known as the safest airline in the world. The employees are the company's greatest asset... not the shareholders. Their value should never be seen as a limitless purse to delve into by cutting staff every time the CEO's and Managers make poor decisions and judgements that cost another slice of the profit. Qantas Engineering are second to none in their field. Our Pilots are the best in the world. If only the CEO's and Alan Joyce had realised that before they cut the airline off at its knees just for the short term bottom line.
We have nothing but a bunch of CEO's that are more interested in their
bonus over the good of the company!
I joined Qantas Airways in January 1970 at the age of 15. I was the youngest engineering apprentice to be employed by Qantas since Eric Kidd! I was a devoted loyal employee. A young lad that just wanted to work with aircraft. That feeling has never left me. 44 years later it is just the same, I just love working on and being around aircraft. I love my job and the responsibility that such a career requires! Every engineer that works on those magnificent aircraft love their job. Aircraft engineering is more than a job, it's a passion. Our work is our pride, it's who we are. At the end of your shift it's all about putting out the very highest standard of work and being proud of the job you have done.
I left Qantas in 1988 to further my International experience and knowledge of aircraft and company values. My knowledge and understanding of aircraft expanded. I saw first hand how our Engineering practices are so far above our competitors and why our airline was once world renowned for being the safest. That is not a title and an honour that is bestowed upon an airline by luck or chance.
I rejoined Qantas in 1996 after working at Malaysian Airlines, which by the way was set up with the help of Qantas from 1970 till mid 1980's. Qantas Engineers are recognised as leaders in their field and are very much respected internationally. Sadly this is not the case back home with our present managers.
When I rejoined Qantas Airways I felt there was a change in the air, the company was all about profit! Not a bad motivation for a company, but at what cost?
In my opinion we have had one good Managing Director and that was John Menedau. He was passed over because he didn't cut the mustard in regards to
profit. He cared too much for the welfare of the employees and integrity of the company overall.
Since 2000 we have had a run of incompetent CEO's who tell themselves what
they are doing is best for the company and pat themselves on the back justifying their shameful management. Just plain fantasy. Alan Joyce is the
worst yet. Not only has he been the cause of low company moral and conflict within the company, he actually closed Qantas down for a couple of days to prove a point. What point? A point that he was a tough man? A point that passengers, our customers heard loud and clear... Don't purchase tickets from an airline that could leave you stranded. It did not have his desired effect. Just as Sir Peter Ables got tough on his pilots, were is his airline now? Mr. Joyce did not want to negotiate, plain and simple. He wanted to bully his employees. It was an exercise in frenzied media relations. What a fiasco. His entire handling of the situation was a failure and yet he remains in the Managing Directors position. As did Geoff Dixon when his assault on Qantas failed in his attempt to sell Qantas. When will we learn from our mistakes? How can the people of Australia and further afield have faith in our carrier when we all have the feeling that it is a cold hearted company, run only for the bloated ego's of a few cut and shunt, grab the money and run, self-profiting individuals that are at the helm. At present, under his tenure, Alan Joyce has dismissed approx 5,000 highly skilled people. Skills that cost this company a huge amount of money at a time when this company invested in apprentices. They were Qantas' golden years when the Management saw the value of investing in the long term health of the company. Not the quick profit and bottom line for this years shareholders. Now Mr. Joyce is asking for help from the dwindling list of Qantas employees. How dare he! Another sign this man is delusional. How does he expect or even consider that he will get assistance from the employees that are left. They too are at an all-time low waiting for Mr. Joyce to find a way of terminating their employment so he can add their yearly wage to his salary and bonus.
My opinion is; Had Mr. Joyce kept his employees and boosted the company's morale, he would not be on his bended knee, hat in hand asking for our help by signing his partition to the Government!
What he really should be doing is saying "I am failing at this job, may I leave now please? I don't think I am the right person for the up and coming challenges of this next battle".
This is my story, please publish it. I think a large number of people in this industry along with the general public will see through his nonsense. Perhaps your readers will agree with my opinion; we're not doing too well since Mr. Joyce became Managing Director, engineered by the way by an equally morally bankrupt Managing Director Mr. Dixon.
Mr. Joyce has not posted dividends during his tenure.
After all, If you employed a person that didn't pull his weight, or did not produce what you employed him to achieve, what would you do?
Tell him he's no longer required.... or give him his big fat bonus?
To my mind, it's a no brainier.
When Qantas was investing in its Engineering, it's apprentices, it's purchase of aircraft it had long term goals.
These goals were realised when our red tailed Kangaroo Icon was known the world over as a reliable and respected airline. It advanced further when it was given the title of the safest airline in the world.
We are now being told it's a different ball game. It's a cut throat industry. There are fuel costs to consider etc...
Why are we believing this?
It's always been a cut throat industry.
Qantas has always had heavy weight competitors. KLM, British Airways, United, Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways, Air India to name but a few. We have always had to pay for fuel.
We managed to survive when many of the larger competitors failed. How is that?
It's because we had a good product to sell. It's because we earned a good reputation. It's because we invested in a healthy backbone of the company. It's because we invested in advertising.
The only thing I can see that changed is privatising the company and selling off assets without reinvesting in the company... Qantas not Jetstar.
We were not paying such a large slice of the company's funds to CEO's outrageous salary, super, expense accounts, slush funds, bonuses & bonus shares.
I see only a fraction of the advertising we use to see. I see more Jetstar Adverts than QF.
Qantas is self insured. With the aircraft being sent overseas for maintenance, how long will it be before their safety record falls out of the sky? Will it then go the way of TWA etc..
So at long last I have told you all my feelings about QANTAS .

Haylin 75,
You have summed up the feelings of every current and former employees of QANTAS in this very personal first post.
A BIG Thank you.

Not sure were this could be published but I will try. Some slight editing may be required though. If nothing else I will take this fabulous story with me to Canberra next week for the Politicians who are debating the Qantas issue. Send me a PM if you like.

Haylyn,

I respect your service ,dedication and pride.
I can also see how 'every current and past' QF employee agrees with you.
However, sentimental rants will not save QF

Take your blinkers off and get into the real world.

QF never was the envy of the "world".

A picture of a clown on a tail would be just as recognizable as a red rat.

Safety is a function of statistics and we all know those have been massaged.

The "safest airline" was only a line in a movie and you didn't actually believe Dustin Hoffman in RainMan, did you?

QF pilots are not the best in the world although ,they would give the "arrogance stakes" a good run.

QF always was a small ,government backed (read protected) sheltered work shop. In world aviation, small potatoes.

They treated the employees like mushrooms and it looks like the employees believed the bullsh-t.

Meanwhile the others were doing it better with deals, new equipment ,better service ,lower costs and, making much more money.
QF Int is dead in the water because it has not been able to move into the new world order.

TAA,East West,Ansett ,Pan AM,TWA and even Boeing Airlines no longer exist.
Soon , Qantas will probably join them.
Virgin will expand to take up what ever void is left over after the major players feeding frenzy and it will be as if QF was never there.

I do feel for you.

Tad unfair international trader. Australia's tax and depreciation provisions are the source of much of what you say. The American, buy it and fly it then chuck it out after Ten years philosophy was a product of their laws.

Also near in mind exchange rates and interest rates. The Ansett fleet upgrade in the late 70's was financed by the US exam bank after Rupert had lunch with President Carter.

If that was for me, bitter?
No.
No longer working up the front, moved to IT and now investment.
I have made enough to be able to do what I want and in fact QF has helped me achieve security.
I also sold out a significantly higher share price than today's closing.

Thank you, QF

Sunfish,

Life is unfair.


As for how Ansett funded their purchases, I wouldn't know. I was a babe in arms in the 70's.

International trader....

What a bitter and twisted rant....All my friends in Asia are amazed of how we have treated QF, they "always looked up to Qantas" were their words.

Whatever Airline fills the void will suffer the same fate until Australia gets it head out of the "free trade" world...which not one country on the world conforms to. Ask Emirates and Etihad how much their landing fees are and look at the United States, the so called "land of the free", nothing is farther from the truth! NO I do not work for Qantas nor have I wanted to...I own my own aircraft and I think that is the way it will stay as I can afford it. Australian Aviation will disappear up it's own arse until we recognise it's value. Australians are SO good at knocking each other down!:ugh:

Haylyn75's post sums up Qantas perfectly. Fact and tone.

Proverbs 16:18

Qantas under Alan Joyce: crisis state and financial performance | Crikey

Former treasurer Peter Costello was dead right over the weekend when he called on the government to reject any bailout. Back when Ansett collapsed, Costello said: “The first people in my office opposing any bailout for Ansett were Qantas … they were right then. They’re wrong now.”

Toruk macto,
And the Golden Globe goes to .......Toruk macto :ok: Spot on my friend. I can assure you that the 'rumour' you allude to has a measure of 'believable' about it. I think you would be very surprised if you knew how widespread and current that practise is among some airline CEO's, past and present, and who shall not be named. In fact some of the same CEO's have been earning around $10 million plus p/a when all the other gravy drops are included. I recall an Australian airline that has only been around for the past 13 or so years that had very senior people who claimed to earn a meagre salary (looked very lean on paper) yet they had fingers in aircraft leasing companies, uniform supply companies and other airline related service supply companies. Some executive managers may even have links to GHA service suppliers as well! Then there are airline executive management links to external Consultancies, Management training companies, engine leasing companies, GSE suppliers, accountancy firms, manpower agencies and the list goes on and on and on and on.
The uneducated and uninitiated would not believe in a million years the intracacy within the webs of income that feed directly into executives pockets, it is obscene and beyond belief. How do I know? Well you could say that for a while my job PD could have read 'Al Capones book keeper'!(the real one that is, Gangsters and all that sort of stuff). I'm not talking about illegal activities, just very smart and sophisticated ways of ensuring that indeed 'all roads lead to Rome' There is a corporate world of greed, obscene greed with vast amounts of wealth attached that the average, in fact even the above average employee, nupty on the street, investor wouldn't know about :=

My gut instict tells me that if all of QF's employees knew exactly, and I say exactly what the upper echelon actually pull out of the place and put into their pockets there would be rioting in the streets, public executions and complete anarchy.
People are being played for fools.

From Crikey

Perhaps the truth is that Joyce is running Qantas into the ground, and running out of options.

International Trader, you are such a f@cking d!ckhead. ;)

What they actually did was sink Ansett and protect Qantas. (No, I'm no former Ansett employee). Minister Anderson was the man from memory.

Won't happen this time boys.

Boom is over, money was squandered by both side of politics. We have no manufacturing sector whatsoever, Singapore's in town get your kids to speak an Asian language. Air China will own Qantas.

Why should one company have special treatment over the other? How about: you stuff up - you resign. In the meantime get rid of the foreign ownership restrictions.

Qantas does not deserve to be bailed out, but it will be . neither political party will object.

Alan will go as the ceremonial sacrifice once he has negotiated the deal.

I don't disagree SF, but what really gets my goat is this clown and the clowns that put him there, along with the group of incompetent buffoons that have praised each of the last Glorious 5 Year Plans since Jimmy Bow Tie's time have effectively had their outrageous salaries backed by government guarantee when they should have been sacked for gross mismanagement 10 years ago. In my book, anyone who hasn't resigned is guilty and only those who resigned in disgust should be brought back in - probably from their jobs at VA.

What was the last engagement score? 70%? By Qantas's own measure that means 70% think management is doing a great job. I know if Weeman says its black then you can be pretty sure its white with maybe one black pixel, but unless you use Gillard/AWU 'innocence' :):););) as a measure then it's guilt by association IMHO and they deserve nothing short of immediate dismissal.

Crew get demoted and mass sacked, people like Steve P are out trying to keep the show on the road with sensible suggestions and innovative ways to operate. The great bloated and incompetent middle through to senior managers with 2 minutes airline experience publicly run him (and us) into the ground and threaten anyone who speaks out - later get to slap themselves on the back for a job well done in hard times (even the govt recognised how hard we work!) and saunter around like gods gift to aviation. They have ruined MY airline!! Crucifixion's too good for 'em I say!!!

Rant over.

Whatever the "determination" may be with regard to a government bail out.

There is no way BGA should get any form of "job security" as part of that bail out.

Careful V jet, you've got to cut through the spin wrt engagement.
Note every time Joyce or Wirth mention engagement, its said with the clarifying line "the engagement levels of our customer facing staff"
Note doesn't include pilots or engineers, who have a pretty good idea of what's going on in the joint. http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/...essAGM2013.pdf