|
I wonder how different things would be if all the money that has been spent on stupid overseas Jetstar ventures had been spent at home on mainline?
And if the original promise had been kept that Jetstar would never compete on Qantas routes? Oh, and if Qantas had ordered 777s and given mainline some 787s, instead of flying $100 bogans around in them? |
Vorsicht...
Monopolies? Really? I think you're being a bit harsh with your selective recall.
The domestic business-class monopoly arose from the Ansett collapse when no other airline provided such a service...until Virgin decided to compete in that space. And as for a "Pacific monopoly", you must have forgotten that United & Air Canada pretty much always did it, and Air NZ was allowed to. That excludes the many other one-stop options like Cathay, JAL, Air Pacific, Hawaiian, Air Tahiti, Air NZ, LAN Chile, Aerolinas Argentina etc. let alone the defunct operators like Pan Am. The Pacific route was no doubt profitable, but a monopoly? Puhlease! |
I don't believe nationalised airlines with soveriegn wealth funds and favourable taxation and accounting standards qualify as free markets. The idea of free markets is that the government stays out of them! Saying Singapore Airlines is a nationalised airline is a bit disingenuous. For ease refer to Singapore Airlines - Wikipedia. The airline is a subsidiary of Singapore government investment and holding company Temasek Holdings which holds 54.5% of voting stock. receive() state funding, subsidies or preferential treatment from the government,.. |
@ CI; It doesn't have to receive any funding at all if it makes money.
Wikipedia for a reference is not the best avenue, but when it indicates that over half the shares are owned by Temasek which is the driver for the sovereign wealth fund, then guess who is calling the shots? And if it under-performs then guess who is coming in to turn that around? Are non-Sing citizens/residents allowed to own SQ shares? Just asking. :confused: Far cry from what we see at QF at the moment. Vorsicht has it right. IF however the gum'int choose to nationalise, they will do it by the same way they payout bonds. Print more money. That way all Australians get to pay for it. halas |
How did QF end up in this position?
Lines in the sand. Jetstar franchises opened and closed like a change of underpants. Grounding the Airline. Randomly opening and closing routes all over the shop. Fines. Books have been written on the matter. Suggest getting reading glasses out Hockey stick. I don't want a cent of my tax money spent on this venture. Would a level playing field mean splitting the government contracts 50/50 with Virgin? Or would it just go to the lowest bidder? "We need action NOW", says Joyce. What sort of show is this guy running? Seriously, one minute its the unions, next its John Borghetti to blame for the FLAG CARRIER'S problems. Who will he blame next? Lol. "Al" just doesn't know what to do next to compete with JB. Interesting results in the ALAEA survey! Lol! |
If JB had not been passed over for the top job, I don't think Qantas would be in this mess in the first place. You have a guy with 30 years plus of Qantas experience, with knowledge, literally, from the ground up, displaced for some import with virtually no knowledge of Qantas or the Qantas way of thinking.
The only thing Joyce knew, was Jetstar and cut cut cut. JB knew how Qantas worked, and took that knowledge elsewhere to use it against them.. It was bound to end in tears, the end had started as soon as it had begun... The final acts are about to be played out, the only sad thing is that those that led this sad demise will depart with millions. |
"Al" just doesn't know what to do next to compete with JB. So, hopefully the big boys in Canberra can help little "Al" out to save him from the competitors, the unions, the taxman, the pilots/engineers/cabin crew/ground staff/shareholders/customers, the monkey man, men with white jackets and pesky bottle openers in the Chairmans lounge. But most importantly save "al" from "al"! It also hasn't gone unnoticed how quiet the Chairman has been over the last month or so. :rolleyes: I think QF needs a certain scope of government protection similar or equal to other sovereign state assisted international airlines but I want that price to be that this management and it's boards heads are put on a platter so the staff can feast. Interesting weeks ahead. :hmm: |
It really breaks my heart that the airline I aspired to work for and eventually did is finished. Alan Joyce and his board of clowns have destroyed the place. Now only to blame a government policy because Borgetti and Virgin are kicking his ass.
At the same time I don't think government should have a say on who owns what of the company. Really, would you want them telling you what car you have to buy? If they really need it to be Australian owned then they should own 51%. |
93 years of iconic history?
Come off it or more correctly, get your hand off it. QF has existed by operating under a sheltered work shop system for many,many decades. They always insured that "I'm all right ,Jack cause I work for the Guvment". Government protection made poor management no hindrance and let us not forget that Qantas did play its part in the Dispute and in the demise of Ansett . If VA were in a difficult position, QF would again plunge the sword in, without hesitation. What does QF actually do for Australia that necessitates it to be saved by the government? Does it fly locally made aircraft, maintain aircraft locally and exclusively use Australian fuel? Nope. Yes it employs people but, so would whatever company replaces it. If it makes a profit remember a good deal goes offshore now. It does however ask Australians to fly in generally old and poorly maintained aircraft, put up with second rate service and cr.p food. You are also requested to pay top prices for that. I say that the Australian public have been saving QF, via their hip pocket, for many years. Unfortunately for QF, the vultures are circling and people start talking about iconic history and "national Carrier" or "national pride". Tough, the time has come! Saw this coming when they first started Jet* |
Spot on SOPS, JB not getting the QF job was the best thing that ever happened to Virgin.
Word is the man works 6.5 days a week and hasn't had a day off since he joined just under 4 years ago. He's up at 3am writing back directly to employees. |
Well Said IT. word perfect.
|
Let's not forget Dixon, Singleton and Carnegie who are most likely watching with great interest.
3 guys who would be happy to buy in (again) and provide the people who want Australia own, 3 Australians as major investors. Make that 4, Packer would love to have more flights from Asia into Australia for a visit to Crown Casino's. 2 years ago this week - Dixon was reported as saying: we decided to let it go at this stage FORMER Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon has revealed he and adman John Singleton were among a group of wealthy investors who worked on taking a strategic stake in the airline three months ago, but shelved their plans because of concerns about global instability. For the first time publicly confirming rumours that have swirled for months, Mr Dixon said a group backed by himself, Mr Singleton and investment banker Mark Carnegie and advised by a global investment bank took a "serious look" at Qantas as its share price slumped to an all-time low. "All we did was have a look at it," Mr Dixon told The Weekend Australian. "And we looked at it in a serious way. We had some very top people looking at it and had a lot of people interested. But there are a lot of reasons why we decided to let it go at this stage." The aviation business owned by Mr Dixon, Mr Singleton and Mr Carnegie - Global Aviation Asset Management - and a group of wealthy private investors was looking to seize a strategic stake in the airline as an investment opportunity. |
Do not put D***n on a high pedestal he wanted Qantas gone and pocket millions for himself.
|
Interesting comment by Truss:
Federal Transport Minister Warren Truss said Qantas could not expect the "government to bankroll their ambitions to have a greater market share . . . or for their desire to open new airlines in other parts of the world". Read more: Qantas wants federal debt guarantee |
Originally Posted by empire4
(Post 8177626)
Now only to blame a government policy because Borgetti and Virgin are kicking his ass.
Both airlines are predicted to make a loss this year. Qantas is hurting and so are Virgin but they now have deep pockets to withstand those losses for longer. It's pretty simple...if QF had anyone else in charge we wouldn't be having this discussion. :rolleyes: |
It's alright, apparently the Sales Act has a hidden clause for airspace priority.
You Qantas blokes are dumb as; accepting holding into Brisbane when you could use your priority status. No wonder the company is going bust! Current laws require there be a majority Australian shareholding in Qantas as part of a deal which gives the national carrier privileges including air space priority. |
Seems that finally it has been admitted what many have been suggesting here for a very long time...he is unable to actually run the airline. So what do the Board do now save for change their nappies given the state of the company??
This is not a case of being unable to operate in an unfair environment but a consequence of decisions made over many years and a totally inept Board who must surely be waiting for some sort of enquiry as to why their own MD has called for help. For their sake I hope they do not report a large financial loss or the questions will just keep coming, particularly as some have already pointed out the statements made in the past. JB must be really enjoying this being 10-0 down and now having the upper hand because of his skill in steering the team forward. |
Yeah but if you talk to one of the 38 chief pilots Alan's created, the net promoter score and on time performance has never been better.
Happy days! |
Alan Joyce has sent Qantas broke. I can't work out why he hasn't resigned yet.
|
Putting aside the folly that is J* Asia, simply put Joyce abjectly failed to identify the changing business conditions and emerging threat of Virgin under the stewardship of JB.
He alone is responsible for the over capacity in the market. It is a direct result of his inflexible 65% line in the sand. Virgin was organically increasing market share by improving its product (ably assisted by Joyce and Clifford's industrial relations strategy)and as a result Joyce had to put 2 planes in the air for every one that Borghetti added, so he could claim to be maintaining his 65%, whether demand was there or not. The reality of a duopoly that provides a similar product is that most likely the market share will fluctuate and eventually stabilise around the 50% level, as was the case in Oz prior to deregulation. If Joyce had been willing to accept that as being a reasonable outcome of having a genuine competitor back in the market ( rather than trying win a war of attrition) and adjusted capacity accordingly, yields would have held up and he would not find himself in the position he is now in. Blindly assuming that because he was the 800lb gorilla he could dictate to the market what his share should be shows the type of hubris that has ruined many a good company. I don't want to see Qantas fail, but any rescue package has to come with Joyce and Clifford resignation attached. |
Now AJ wants a G tee on debt from Gov and his pay .
|
Finally it's coming home to roost!
The Irish gits' incompetence is finally front and centre. Why should this government save the bacon of this (QF)management, which has trashed it? Senator Xenophon was scathing of the “cannibalisation” of Qantas by its offshoot Jetstar, in particular “the apparent black hole that is Jetstar’s Asian experiment”. I agree with the above comments re not wanting the White Rat to fail but I certainly can not justify under any grounds, why the Tax payer should bail out the confrontational, deceptive and incompetent heads of management. The arrogance is out of control! As an example, just two nights ago when opening up a further maintenance facility in BN, he was quoted as saying that the VA outside investment was like a soccer game - where QF are 10-0 ahead and they bring 3 more teams on.... Joyce, mate... you have never been 10 nil up! QF in the olden days yes maybe but now, that it aint... because of you. Joyce and Cliffords resignations should be a given already, on the basis that JB outplayed them on the chess board to this point and they simply have no answer except bitching to the umpire. Well hopefully the umpire looks into what you've been doing all these years. Happy landings:ok: |
Vorsicht,
Bloody well said. :D |
Do you know where in the Sales Act this is ? Would love to read what it says but can't find any reference in the pages and pages of legal gobbledygook.
|
Alan Joyce has sent Qantas broke. I can't work out why he hasn't resigned yet. It shouldn't be up to him! Why hasn't he been sacked, tarred and feathered! Amazing triumph of incompetence. |
Staff?
The thing that gets me is that he wants the staff to support him, when he shut down the airline when there were no restrictions, stop-work meetings, no strikes...nothing, he just decided to do it...
Any idiot staff who support the clown need their head read....Government bailout?, you have to be kidding... if QF is in such a bad way why doesn't the Board Sell Jetstar? Its supposedly an Amazing business! Why not sell it and use the Capital for QF domestic and International? |
Where are the shareholders
It amazes me that shareholders can sit back and see the value trashed, and not put their hand up. The institutions that most probably own the bulk of the shares ought to be taken to task. As for Joyce complaining about the $350m for the Virgin offer, how much did HE lose by shutting the airline down? Did I hear around $200m ?
|
complaining about the $350m for the Virgin offer, how much did HE lose by shutting the airline down? Did I hear around $200m ? |
Anyone emailing the minister about this? Only PPruners care what is on PPrune.
|
Shareholders
I fear the Minister will do nothing, as before, it's shareholders, and only them who can turf the board. Getting them into a petition or similar might be a good start.
|
Can anyone recall any such crisis or emergency a few short weeks ago at the AGM?
Feels very similar to announcements in Feb/Mar '11 re QI where a major crisis came to hand a few weeks after talking up all business segments at the H1 results….. and we know how that ended. |
Have AJ, Clifford et al ever let a good 'crisis' go to waste? Virgin's capital raising has had convenient timing to advance a number of issues for QF that have had simmering on the back burner for quite a long time.
Ther is nothing 'new' here, just an opportunity to advance a cause. |
Can anyone recall any such crisis or emergency a few short weeks ago at the AGM? |
can't QF INT do same as VA INT ?
surely QF could do to its int arm what VA has done to its int arm ?
|
QF can't do to its int'l arm what VA has done without changes to the QSA.
|
So we now have a Liberal government talking about a government buy back of QF which is essentially a bailout. Don't remember this being part of the Lib's manifesto.
This should not be on the cards given how QF got into this situation, it has been through incompetent management pursuing the castles in the air in Asia and now want the government to bailout the airline so it doesn't get it's debt called. Hockey in plan to buy back 10pc of Qantas A government buyback of up to 10 per cent of Qantas has emerged as the most likely option to solve the airline’s problems after the prospect of lifting foreign ownership restrictions was scuttled and political enthusiasm for guaranteeing the airline was lukewarm. With Labor, the Greens, Qantas and even Prime Minister Tony Abbott throwing cold water on a repeal or easing of the Qantas Sale Act, the government’s options were limited to a direct intervention or support to shore up the airline’s credit rating. Senior sources have told The Australian Financial Review that Qantas has been seeking a form of loan guarantee from the former Gillard Labor government and now the Coalition, as it tries to compete against the foreign-owned Virgin Australia Holdings while *constrained by the conditions of the Sale Act. The Financial Review has obtained a ”letter of comfort” provided to Qantas by Labor transport minister Anthony Albanese in August to ward off a downgrade in its credit rating. “I would expect the government’s long-term and ongoing recognition of the critical importance of the company to the economic and social fabric of the country to be an important element of the ratings agencies’ deliberations,’’ the letter says. With Qantas again looking for some form of government support as soon as possible to stave off the *prospect of a downgrade in its credit rating, Treasurer Joe Hockey is not keen on providing a direct guarantee. This is because it would leave the government exposed to a large liability should Qantas fail and prompt other organisations with foreign *ownership restrictions to ask for a *similar guarantee. It is believed Mr Hockey and Mr Albanese have been talking and the emerging but not yet agreed political consensus is for the government to *provide an implicit credit guarantee by buying between 5 per cent to 10 per cent of the airline back which, at today’s prices, would cost about $260 million. Mr Albanese said on Thursday a “small equity take-up’’ would “make it clear to the markets that the Australian government regarded Qantas as not just another company, but that there are real national security and national interest issues in making sure we have a national airline”. Public will have to pay Mr Hockey again expressed a *preference to ease the Sale Act *constrictions which limit foreign *ownership but given this will not *happen, he said the Australian public must be prepared to put its hand in its pocket if it wanted to keep a national carrier. “I do not like the idea of putting taxpayers’ money or taxpayer support behind Qantas, but if it is the view of the Australian people that we should have a national carrier that carries our flag then that does come at a cost,’’ he said. “I am a great believer in free trade, but I also recognise that there is significant community benefit in having a national carrier.” While Qantas has $2.8 billion of cash on hand, there are suggestions *hundreds of millions of dollars could be restricted by credit card companies overnight if its investment grade rating was lost. It would also need to pay a higher interest rate on its $4.8 billion of debt facilities at a time when it has already forecast it will be free cash flow negative in the current half. Qantas has the lowest possible investment grade credit rating and any downgrade would lead to it reaching “junk” status. The loss of liquidity would make it harder for the airline to continue to maintain its 65 per cent market share target because it may not be able to afford matching capacity increases by Virgin. Mr Hockey has called for a community debate and said on Thursday a decision must be made within 12 months. The Greens and Labor said they would not support in Parliament the repeal of the Sale Act, saying Qantas must remain majority-Australian owned for reasons that included national security and the national interest. Mr Abbott, too, showed little enthusiasm to hand Qantas to foreign owners. “My view is that Qantas should remain an Australian icon and I am happy to look at a range of measures that will help ensure that that happens, but certainly at this point in time I am not being prescriptive about any *particular change.’’ The shift to the prospect of funding from government came as Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce told the airline’s 30,000 employees that the possibility of changing the Qantas Sale Act to allow for more foreign ownership was not “realistically achievable”. Unions oppose changes to act He said any process of change would be prolonged and it was not clear if public support would be gained. With the exception of the pilots union, which would support more foreign capital on the condition it is invested in Australia, the key unions representing Qantas employees are against changes to the Sale Act. It is understood Qantas is hoping that a decision on an equity or debt based solution will be forthcoming from the cabinet before Christmas. Several options have been put forward in addition to the prospect of the Future Fund or government buying Qantas shares on market. A share placement, which would raise fresh funds, is also a potential solution. Qantas has also canvassed the idea of a government guarantee on its debt, the extension of a stand-by credit facility from government and the issuance of a “Kangaroo” share giving government control over the composition of the register. All of the options are designed to help qualify Qantas as a government-related entity with ratings agencies in a move that would bolster its credit rating. Qantas is rated BBB-minus by Standard & Poor’s, which is the lowest investment grade credit rating. The ongoing capacity war with Virgin has the potential to lead to Qantas being downgraded to “junk” status if it maintains its insistence on keeping a 65 per cent share of the domestic aviation market. Virgin has been adding capacity at a rapid pace and under its current strategy, Qantas effectively needs to add two new flights for every one added by Virgin even though demand is low due to weak economic conditions. Virgin on Thursday said its aim was to create a long-term sustainable and profitable business and any potential changes to the Qantas Sale Act were a matter for the government and Qantas. |
Looks like Virgin Australia is dishing up the dirt re a secret deal to prevent Qantas being downgraded by Moodys.
Did the government do a secret deal with Qantas before Virgin Australia’s $350 million capital raising to prevent it being downgraded by investment ratings agencies? In an open letter to Government released this afternoon Virgin Australia CEO John Borghetti raises media reports that the federal government had offered the “comfort letters to Qantas’s credit rating agencies, prior to our capital raising.” Borghetti says in the letter “I would also note that if Virgin Australia had been afforded the benefit of such a letter, it would have enabled us to achieve superior outcomes from both the recent debt bond issue undertaken in the US market and the capital raising that is underway.” This is a serious matter that goes straight to the government’s integrity or at the very least, good judgement, in business relations. But even if the multiple media reports all came from an incorrect source, the Borghetti open letter, published in full below, makes a number of other points about the Qantas case seeking relief from competitive pressures from Virgin Australia, including its previous automatic success in raising more than $1 billion in capital raisings despite the restrictions of the Qantas Sale Act. Virgin says it was disadvantaged by secret govt Qantas deal | Plane Talking |
With every passing hour, this whole thing becomes more of a disaster. God only knows where we will be this time next week.
|
Is Qantas Crisis an Own Goal? | Nick Xenophon - Independent Senator for South Australia
A politician who see's through the bull$hit after many thousands of employees were conned into believing signing a petition was in their best interests. |
That link to the good Senator's article is all in orange and white . Sigh
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 19:03. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.