So, Qantas think that Virgin are being favoured by government. Remind me what % of government travel Qantas gets?

Not sure whether its the game or just some of the substitute players that are dirty. Regardless if you take the bucks, a CEO should just do his damn job and earn them. I dont want to hear any bleating or whingeing because I thought that is why he is paid but given some history I could well be wrong.

Ollie Onion,

There is NO (nada zero zilch) cap on foreigners owning a domestic airline...
eg. Tiger Australia was 100% owned by Tiger Airways (Singapore), same with Ansett in its day (although separate rules for our kiwi friends).
Cathay, Singapore, etc could setup an Australian domestic subsidiary any day of the week - they would however need an Australian AOC and abide by Australian awards and industrial agreements and the like... suddenly not so attractive which is why it hasn't happened.

There is a limit on international airlines (in order to retain Aussie flag rights) of 50%.

By some complicated structure Virgin is <50% Internationally, whilst the listed company is at 80% and everything seems to get run by the same mob and everything is reported on the same books.

Then there is the special rules that apply to Qantas by virtue of the Qantas Sale Act, which contain a raft of other restrictions.

--

Note that the Australian domestic regulations are considerably more generous than where Jetstar has invested where there are domestic operations (eg. excluding Singapore and Hong Kong) - Pacific (Vietnam) capped at 30%, Japan capped at 33% voting (although equity higher)

ohallen,
I think that is exactly what AJ is doing here - his job - trying to help his company and hurt the competitor, and/or make another argument against the qantas act.

If the $300m investment in VA was rejected, they are in a world of pain.

I think most staff at QF agree that the Qantas sales act is outdated and for sure could be amended to allow Qantas to be more competitive in todays changed market.
But to now turn to your staff and ask for a call to arms by a CEO that over the last 5 years has destroyed jobs/careers, torn families apart, closed down the business for his own agenda, bent the truth (I woke up one morning and thought Hey, I might shut down the airline! No Cookies | The Courier-Mail ), embarrassed us/himself (Calling competitors bikes and BMW's Alan Joyce: alliance with Etihad vs Emirates like "offered bike before BMW" - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller ) marginalised mainline to the extent that we have become irrelevant, undercut his staff by offshoring, gifted all but a token service to London to a competitor (Emirates) (who I may add in a recent interview with Geoffrey Thomas stated that the 777x would be a perfect aircraft for Per-Lon for Qantas Perth to London nonstop flights - The West Australian but I guarantee we won't see them as the flying will be done by anyone else.) Killing the share price, abandoning dividends and the list goes on.

As it's been stated this is not J* vs QF, or QF vs VB, or even QF vs everyone else. This is about a CEO vs QF and it's alienated staff that have been neglected for far to long and have basically lost all hope of a future with a once great airline. To us the damage was done internally well and truly before any other competitor got the chance to do it.

So Al, as stated before I will be doing my bit and sending an email to my Poli but it will be to support Qantas, not yourself. And I support AIPA's work in also playing apart to help save Qantas, but AIPA's support should come with a guarantee of your resignation.

Khalifa may find the comment that his airline is being compared to a bike slightly amusing . He could probable buy Emirates with the lose change lying around Abu Dhabi . Strange statement ?

I'm sure the CEOs of the banks would just be delighted to invest $500M of shareholder funds into a company that has seen its value fall by 75% in 7 years.....not!!!

QF are free to go to the market and have a rights issue today with its existing shareholders and this would both boost its capital and enable it to get more foreign investment. The problem is the share price has tanked so much that most existing shareholders wouldn't be interested and even a $500M injection would be highly dilutive given the current market capitalisation is only just over $2.5B. This dilution would just lead to an even lower share price and would require a massively discounted offering.

QF is probably right that only foreign airlines would be interested in investing at the moment and that requires the QSA to be revoked. It is hard to see the share price recovering for ages as many existing shareholders will quickly dump their holding as the price increases meaning there is a huge overhang that will take years to work through.

There's obviously plenty of interest n this subject & so there should be, it was (QF) once in the hearts of all Aussies many years ago we where proud a brand that was well known as Las Vegas in the States, London bridge in England (our roots) & the moon way up there in the heavens, now the name QF is just a dirty grubby Co that will try anything to make it's poor image look good. No disrespect to the QF employees they no longer are the Co the little greedy buggers at the top are.
As "1A' alluded to here the banks would run a mile b4 they got involved in a dieing Co, they want a return on their money not a Co that is bleeding & dieing a certainty!
I blame the Govt's along the way for letting the rest of the world rape us & leave us destroyed 4ever & a day!
Actually I am a bit surprised that the Mods are allowing this thread to continue, I mean after all it is about QF & we can't have that now can we?


Wmk2

Let's see if I've got this right. AJ is asking Qantas employees to support him and do his lobbying for him. These are the same employees who could not be trusted to operate the airline during industrial action leaving AJ with no option other than shutting down the airline, thus succeeding where Australia's enemies had failed in WWII. :yuk:

Why is AIPA supporting this? Why not just abstain and let individual members act to their own beliefs on the matter. Given what Joyce has done to the airline I don't think a union should be see to be supporting him as he sure doesn't support unions.

I think AIPA have been lobbying the QSA point for a lot of years, its not new.

The thing that galls me is this idiot is the CEO, this is what he gets paid the big bucks for, so go and sort it out yourself, I wont be lobbying my local MP, this is what managers and all their entourage are paid for, I simply fly, and if the joint goes under so be it, I'll move on, pretty simple really. I mean who flies 747 jumbos on 7-8 hour sectors to Asia, even slave labour couldnt run a profit on those fuel guzzlers, the QF mainline has been neglected for so long its just a joke at the moment. (Oh I forgot you can shut 1 engine down during taxi, that should save 50kg or so on an 80 tonne burn to Asia) Or he could get Boston Consulting to advise him, thats what he does for everything else...:ugh:

Right now there is more chance of Shane Warne making a test match century than Qantas getting their little Jetstar franchise up in Hong Kong.

Given the modern day trend with those at the top of large corporations always being paid handsomely well regardless of their company's performance, I'm surprised that 'Al' would actually bother with thinking.

It's the old Telstra joke recycled - "They just like wearing the suit".

AIPA is not. AIPA is lobbying independently for a level playing field as it has been for some years.

Reeking of desperation
 

Seems to me that apart from reeking of desperation, AJs attempt to get all QANTAS staff to sign a petition is tantamount to being the latest engagement survey. Be interesting to see how many signitures they get. Up to approximately 5000 so far.

QANTAS staff signing up for something AJ is behind ??! Sounds a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas.....

Virgin are just doing what they are legally entitled to do. No amount of lobbying can change that.

What any sucker who signs this thing is really doing is supporting Alan's real reason for the petition - to get the Qantas Sale Act removed or changed.

Steve,

What do you see as the pros and cons if the sales act is removed or varied to allow the current scenario that exists at Virgin to be made available?

I still can't believe that Virgin can access Australian bilateral rights under their current ownership structure. What is more amazing is that no one in power seems to mind. Sell the country and we can all work to build wealth for foreigners. Slave to the buck?

Who does this 'Al' guy think he is? He carrys on like a toddler, having tantrums and throwing toys.

Last time something wasn't going his way he shut down the company and cost the economy who knows how many millions of dollars making our country look like a complete joke to the real world. The scary bit for JB (and any EBA negotiators) is he absolutely got away with it. Not even a slap on the wrist even with evidence it was planned.

He's great at blaming everyone for his companies misfortunes rather than taking it on the chin. Randomly opening companies all over the world (Jetstar Vietnam/Hong Kong) spraying money around like its confetti. The petition QF Employees need is for 'Al' to be put in the mail room and learn from scratch how a CEO is supposed to behave.

Now his 'line in the sand' is costing a fortune and its JB's fault. Yeah right.
Maybe Virgin should check with 'Al' before making any decisions, you know, just to make sure they don't make him look silly.

Poor Awan :cool:

Sales Act removal could mean that Australia doesn't have any carrier that we as a country control (if there was a national crisis such as WWII). The Act also protects jobs by saying that a majority of the facilities need to be at home. If the Board is majority foreign, they would be less inclined to care about where employees were based.

On the plus side, if the Act was removed or changed, Qantas could use the injection of cash to support the very successful Jetstar franchise of businesses :}. The current management team will send Qantas broke regardless.

The bilateral Agreements are different and relate to only the ownership of the International parts of each business which of course JB was smart enough to split earlier in the year.

Bob Katter raised Legislation recently to protect our air routes so only those who employed Aus pilots, Flight Atts and carried out heavy maint in Aus could access the routes. Both major parties blocked it.

Berealgetreal, probably best not to mention things like 'slap on the wrist', 'take it on the chin', 'throwing toys' and 'spraying' in a post about 'you know who' :=
Or maybe I am just imagining things :suspect:

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't claim to be an expert on the QF crisis.

So without the sales act, Qantas jobs can be outsourced and the company can be up for grabs from any foreign player. But with the sales act Qantas are handicapped in the market because foreign run airlines like Virgin are getting fed from overseas?

Qantas are handicapped because they have wasted all their money investing it in failed overseas ventures and engaging in an ongoing war against their employees.

Although they haven't told anyone this, Qantas are already planning to split their company into a Domestic and International arm and do just what Virgin have done.

If Alan and senior management stopped;

A. Screwing customers
B. Screwing pilots, engineers and other staff
C. Screwing travel agents
D. Everyone else


And started providing;
A. World class product
B. happy staff
C. Reasonable use of FF points that they so heavily promote
D. What their once loyal customers wanted

...........then none of this would be an issue.

It is not that hard.

Maybe running the place at times is hard, but really, do these three things, look after the staff, they look after the customers, who ultimately look after the shareholders.

Ohh it might help if you stop leaving the cash cow with POS airframes and giving all the goodies to the LCC?

:ok:

Ex loyal QF customer.

In order to access bilaterals the carrier must be at least 51% Australian owned. However Virgin seems to have rewritten those rules. Can't wait for the first foreign government to knock back services on the basis that the supposedly Australian carrier is in fact an arm of another country. Indonesia may be the test case given their new dislike of all things Australian.
Except cattle, agricultural land, bogans, real estate.

What The

What part of Virgin Australia (International) being 51% Australian owned don’t you understand. It is Virgin Australia (Domestic) that is majority owned by Etihad, Singapore Airlines and Air New Zealand. They are two separate companies with two separate listing on the ASX. Both airlines comply 100% with the foreign ownership rules.

Ironic isn't it that little Al is also in the process of splitting Qantas up into two divisions, international and Domestic. And now he has an excuse to lobby the relaxing of the QSA just in time for the split to be complete. Plus he has the gall to ask the staff to help no less! It's like the executioner getting you to sharpen the guillotine before your execution.

So, I guess you don't have to be a genius to guess what he may have in store for the future of domestic if the QSA is amended at all? Hmmm :hmm:

Under Joyce, Qantas has been decimated Internationally and now VA is slowly chipping away at their Domestic product..JQ INT is losing money, with JQ DOM the only real money spinner!..This is very unwelcome news which should have the shareholders running for the hills!..If it had a 'go getter' type CEO with a vision of taking the airline to the heights of the greatest ,it wouldn't be in this **** crying for help!!..

Qantas is supposed to be a lean fighting machine.AJ was supposed to modernise it..But in reality what do we have??...we have a company that is bogged down in procedures and red tape!..we have layer upon layer of management that just keeps increasing...We have an OH & S culture that's gone mad with procedures, we have an authoritarian management that belongs in the 70's, and quite frankly we have a lot of managers who only exist because of who they know..Most are not qualified for the tasks their employed to do!!..The ass covering is astounding !!..

The management of Qantas only have themselves to blame..This company is coming away at the seams and the rot is starting on the inside..Nobody outside Qantas sees it..Staff see it everyday!..

For those not QF employees ask yourselves these questions;

Why do they cancel International routes claiming they're losing money - only to be picked up by competitors immediately?
Why do they buy the worlds newest and most efficient jet, and give it to a low cost outfit so they can fly bogans for $100?.
Why is there no major product developments or aircraft orders for the International operation?..when's the last time you saw an ad on TV for Qantas?..
Why can't Australians from ADL and PER travel to London on their own beloved airline?..Who the hell wants to transit through Dubai at 2am arriving LHR at 5.30 am - Buggered!!!!..Inspite of the bull****, flights to LHR in Dec are wide open!!!..(could you get a seat via SIN last year??..)..
Why re-time flights from SIN to arrive in Aus at 4.30am instead of the usual 1440,and then cancel the flight because it's gone from full to 80 pax!!!
When you travel East West premium on VA 330's you will get a sleeper bed every time ..with QF you may get an A330-300 with skybed.you may get -200 with the plastic tray, you may get the JQ spec J seat!..They can't even get that right!..The reconfigs don't start until next year !!!!..

The crux is that Qantas is great airline with a very proud history..Unfortunately it's also a very badly run airline!!..
They should never have put a Low Cost CEO in charge of a Premium airline and Because of him, Jetstar will never be allowed to fail !!..
:{

Stay tuned, Tiger is warming up.

Rubbish! VIAH is NOT listed on the ASX. It was created during the split when foreign ownership of VAH was 49%. Each existing VAH shareholder got a stake in VIAH at a share value of $0.000001. VIAH has no equity, shares cannot be traded and can only be sold under limited circumstances, shares are held in a trust.

VIAH is totally funded by VAH and VAH provides aircraft, crew etc etc to VIAH. VAH calls the shots. If VAH decide not to give a dollar to VIAH, then VIAH will not get a dollar.

VIAH is nothing more than a shonky (but brilliantly legal) way to circumvent the ANA. It is a 51% Australian owned Company of nothing. I can imagine the board meetings of the "independent" VIAH consist of nothing more than directions from VAH.

Exactly!:D

Just looking closer at this today. Thought I would start by explaining this petition. This is what Qantas want people to sign -

What is really odd about this petition is that it doesn't call on anyone to do anything. There are no demands to change the access rights to air routes. There is no call on the ACCC to intervene or anyone to change a Law to keep airlines Australian. There is nothing. It's highly unusual for any petition not to have any requests for the recipients to act upon.

I think I know why. Qantas don't really want airlines to be Australian owned. If they placed a demand on the petition that would be the last thing they wanted because they have no intention of remaining Australian themselves.

I was floating about the big house in Canberra last week talking to Politicians about Qantas. Qantas were floating around also. Every Polly I met after Qantas had all been lobbied by Qantas to allow them to sell more than 49% offshore. It's not ironic that they want you to sign a nothing petition to attack Virgin, it's all part of the plan to sell Qantas on the back of a "level playing field" argument they are already running.

This petition is a lie.

And why would offshore money be any better than local money?

I suspect that it has no appeal locally as the ROI is negative. All they will do is screw it up on others cash.

Qantas problems are not the country of origin of investment. They are simply the strategic management clock ups and unhappy staff.

I hate to say this but the culture is so destroyed that a complete collapse and a rebuild is required.

I would love to have a go at fixing it...but the sackings would be a media frenzy and now days probably illegal. The planning would take twelve months and the execution about 7 days. All those in HR, finance, marketing OHS and a few other departments would be nervous, very nervous.

Qantas can have up to 49% foreign ownership. So why don't they? Emirates (or any other investor) has every right to buy the same share as what Etihad has in VA, but no one has.

Changing the sale act won't change the fact the QF is currently run by a have wit and his side kicks and no one wants to invest in the company.

P.s. Every time I read "Alan" I think of Alan from the Hangover and can't help but laugh at the resemblance between the two in their mental capacity.

I take offence to your personal attack on Alan. Zach Galifianakis is a fine Actor.

Qantas has no access to capital, it cannot fund its capital requirements through earnings, it cannot raise capital in Australia, it cannot borrow any more.

It is time to forget about the past, the mistakes, the squandering, everything.

If the Sales Act is not changed there is zero hope for Qantas. It will continue to contract at an increasing rate until it is gone.

If the Sales Act is changed and foreign capital injected, there is no doubt there will be more mistakes and more squandering. But, there is a chance that Qantas will receive a lifeline of capital and survive.

The only thing that needs to be changed in the Sales Act is the foreign ownership restrictions.

Foreign airlines are only permitted 35% and a single shareholder 25%. If 100% of Qantas domestic and 49% of international could be foreign owned, then it is a new ball game.

Don't believe the VAH, Eithad, Air NZ, Singapore will be a happy marriage either, some interesting times ahead in that boardroom.

If the Sale Act is changed, the money will be wasted on more overseas fantasy airlines and Qantas will be further in debt.

What airline of sound mind pulls out of Frankfurt when loads are above 90% and cuts their flights from Adelaide and Perth to Europe?

The only thing that needs to change is the direction management are taking the company.

Nobody disputes the current managements' long line of shortcomings, but you need to look beyond that. If the entire senior management and board were replaced tomorrow, it does not change the need for external capital funding.

Qantas cannot continue to fund Qantas, it cannot continue to fund Jetstar. If Qantas shutdown Jetstar tomorrow and pulled out of all its overseas follies it would not make a difference at all, that money is gone, it's never coming back and the cupboard is almost bare!

Stop playing the blame game, it gets nowhere.

The Act needs to be changed and the best thing in return would be Joyce's head on a platter.

What The & The The

The reality is that Virgin Australia is operating within the airline ownership laws of this country. The fact is that Virgin Australia (International) is a separate company owned by a majority Australian shareholding. You may not like it but tough.

What this whole charade by AJ is all about is allowing the QF sales act to be amended. Virgin’s ownership is a deliberate distraction by AJ, nothing more. If AJ was arguing to allow it to have majority foreign ownership in its domestic operations like VA then I would support that but he isn’t. He wants it for the entire group and that isn’t on.:=