I've always said .. there is ultimately a driven industrial agenda. Think like Clifford. Think like their IR consultants. Think like Liberals.

"Think like liberals"

I tried that once and later had a wet dream about Gina Reinhart. Never again:yuk:

Your mother says if that happens again, you're washing your own sheets.

Beer Baron.....
 

AI - Should negotiations fail, the award safety net comes into place'. I'm fairly certain that is incorrect.
If negotiations fail then the current EBA remains in place. Work Choices got repealed (thank god). So the (admittedly crap) Aviation Award would not play into the equation.
Please accept my quote as a statement in summary. Perhaps I should have said 'if all else fails, at all levels of negotiation, the award is the safety net'.

Liberal, miserable and cynical.. ;)

Footage of Alan Joyce reviewing the results of the Qantas Group FY 13/14 before announcing them at the AGM

Change the brand to China Southern and that is exactly what will happen.

The genie is out of the bottle and Qantas knows it. They can't afford to keep Jetstar, but they can't afford to sell it either.

The option is to wind it back into mainline and cut the losses or continue to feed it. At this stage they continue to feed it, as the shareholders want to see a return in their investment. I'd imagine a change of management would see it wound back into Qantas. Domestically at least anyway.

Back when JQ was first commenced I thought, like many it was a horrible idea. I have always maintained that it diluted the Qantas presence and would eventually lead to misery

My far better option at the time was this. Operate the second part of the economy cabin not as Qantas but as a low cost section. Call it Qantas light if you wish.

Reduced seat pitch, no IFE, no free baggage, restricted carry on, no seat selection, no access to Qantas Club, no international connections, no free meals/drinks, no pillows/vlankets no QF FF points. Call it "second class" not economy so that business travelers (under most work agreements) would be unable to book it.

This would have dramatically increased route frequencies, avoided route closures and maintained the Qantas presence and loyalty.

Allegedly they looked at my proposal but the whole JQ justification was the unions. Now that JQ costs have risen it has become almost self destructive and pointless.

If EK are not involved in buying JQ rest assured there are one or two Chinese airlines that would be next in line.

1. Stop another entrant (like OZJET)
2. Attack Virgin from both ends (successful until Virgin found foreign pot of gold)
3. Break the unions in Qantas (has cost billions and been unsuccessful)

Those were the original reasons for embarking on this very costly endeavour.

JQ Biz Class?
 

Bet the next roll out will be JQ Business Class on the AUS 320's. It really is a diabolical mess. The lunatics are in desperate need of high dose lithium. Qantas has been damaged beyond repair. This never needed to happen. Shakes my head in disgust.

1a

Spot on.

The real agenda was to break the unions instead of investing for the future of the QF brand. You cannot run a full service brand against an LCC on the same balance sheet. Well I guess you can because the lunatics in charge have done it. But it will always end in tears.

I think SQ is tempting fate with the same kind of MBA idiocy.

The sad reality is that no-one from QF management has been on the shop floor for decades. They simply do not have the backbone for it. They live in a parallel universe where spreadsheets become reality because you can print them out.

I tend to agree with some conspiracy theorists that QF is being set up for a pig roast but on second thoughts I actually don't think management and board are that smart.

That was tried before during the Ansett/Australian/Compass war days and was a dismal failure, remember "discount economy" by AN and TN. Way too confusing for both staff and customers and led to much angst for all. It did not last very long.

It's out of Jetstar, Qantas employees hands, the course is set and we are just along for the ride.
The most obvious seems to be a downsizing of Qantas to such a degree and rebranding of Jetstar to Qantas at a later stage with a lower cost base to compete.
I know that most Qantas employees would love Jetstar to just disappear, but that's not going to happen, it's an Airline in its own right and will ultimately be a friend or foe to the Qantas Group, hopefully a friend.

We all know that Dingo but the problem is how long will it take? The board have a lot riding on what is essentially a plan straight out of a textbook for consultants. What they underestimated is the strength of the brand that American Airlines did not have. It has taken a lot longer than expected to "kill".A lot of egos and money are riding on this and that is why is will get worse before it gets better. In the meantime they can't sell Jetstar and they can't reignite Qantas. The promises have been made for nirvana that is why the shareholders( big shareholders because the mums and dads are along for the ride) haven't buckled. In the meantime the risk taking will continue.

And the mums and dads are along for the ride.....i got my Mum out of Qantas shares ages ago, luckily she is in a position that her investment in Qantas does not really matter here or there. Having said that, there are many many Mum and Dads that their investment does matter, and I cannot believe that they sit at every AGM, watch their share price collapse and vote that the CEO gets paid another 3 million. Something is very very very wrong, the whole thing stinks to high hell.

The problem with this, is Jetstar can't be Qantas, even if they are rebranded as Qantas.

They can only be an imitation of Qantas.

Case example is Jetconnect. I've read passenger comments that although it's branded as Qantas, it doesnt "feel" like Qantas.

If it doesn't "feel" like Qantas, passengers may choose to fly with the competition.

MC

The problem is the votes of mum and dad shareholders at AGMs count for nothing. The institutions have given their proxy to the chairman before the meeting and the decisions are all locked away. On a few occasions the instos have done "native" but it is rare unfortunately and when a CL invitation is at stake it just ain't gonna happen.

While the split economy cabin was tried before, and did not work, that was long before the advent of the LCCs,and passengers getting used to the concept of paying for all the extras!
It works these days, for example all SAS European flights have Economy plus, and economy, a simple seat placard divides the cabin,
Economy plus provides all the usual economy frills, economy you get one free checked bag, free tea and coffee, but pay for everything else.

MC, a while ago they were publishing those Net Promoter Scores and comments to techies. After the first one I made the suggestion that perhaps they should vet the comments a bit more closely and not negative comments about lack of info from flight deck or other pilot related stuff when those comments came from flights that were actually operated by Jetconnect. The ratio of negative comments was interesting.

Keg,

I'm sure your aware of the website dedicated to JQ & its customer service standards.

Passengers provide comments about there service experiences on the site.

Simply rebranding the LCC as the Premium brand will not change the culture within the formers organisation.

MC

Interesting concept MC...but I think the reality is the public, and upper management don't care. If it's got a roo on the tail, the crew wear QANTAS uniforms, the majority of people will think it's QANTAS. Maybe 10 years ago they did care, but the current and future generations don't. If management can get "Qantas" for a cheaper price they don't care either.

Unfortunately the days of being a "QANTAS pilot" are gone. Upper management see themselves as the only true part of QANTAS, the rest of us are just a commodity of pilots, like fuel, parts...etc. In their eyes if your a short haul pilot, long haul pilot, cobham pilot, jet connect pilot, Jetstar pilot, Network pilot or Qantaslink pilot ( have I missed any?) your no more important than any other pilot group, and if you can operate an aircraft with a roo on the tail cheaper than someone else you get the gig!

If Jetstar is absorbed into Qantas, and crew are trained to Qantas service standards, the public won't care...they will be flying in new aircraft ( remember the huge A320 order), and the pilots will be wearing Qantas uniforms...well that makes it Qantas doesn't it!!!!

Oh and management....well they have expanded the Qantas brand if they do this....apparently everyone wins ;).

So I suppose TAA are the exception then?

Jetstar delivers a product. If that product were to change, so would the service and standards delivering the product.

As would the cost base of the business delivering that product. i.e it would increase in the Jetstar business. So, If Jetstar were to "become the new Qantas" i would bet it's cost base would be similar to what Qantas' is. Wages to pilots does not a low cost base make.

My money is on Jetstar being Jetstar and a leaner Qantas being Qantas.

Blueskymine.

I would disagree.

JQ have changed their product over time.

Allocated seats, expanded network, inflight entertainment newer aircraft like the 787.

However there hasn't been an improvement in service standards.

If JQ is rebranded & people are still paid & treated the same by the company. Then the service they provide for the new product will not change.

TAA weren't a low cost carrier. It was a full service to full service branding change.

My point being, by changing the product it won't change the culture of the organisation.

An example of the cost reductions are the new A380 Cabin Crew. Within the same organisation & culture of QF mainline. The company introduced a new pay scale and recruited then trained to the organisation the lower paid crew.

MC

Sandy Palms.

I think your right. Both Qantas & JQ will fail or succeed in their own rights.

In discussions I've had, JQ are about to learn what's it's like to be a legacy carrier.

Recent 10 year anniversary + Long Service Leave obligations for an increasing amount of staff=increased cost base.
MC

Jetstar gets absorbed in Qantas and aircraft are painted with red tails.

Whats next…

Network gets absorbed into Jetstar and aircraft are painted with Jetstar tails.

I don't think so, Thant would mean all Jetstar aircraft would be up for a full repaint, which the company can not afford….. They lost how much….

Distinguish the arenas.

Domestically QF and JQ are heading towards the same cost point. With the additional row that QF wants to squeeze in to its 737s there will be even less product differentiation.
That said I would still expect JQ to be considerably lower for some time,
but IFE and an apple and lounge access for some can't add much to the costs.

Internationally, both are high cost compared to competitors and will continue to bleed.
Air Asia X presently from KUL...
In a few years I would expect Thai Air Asia X, Indo Air Asia X, Lion Air, Cebu Pacific etc to be flooding our market from the LCC end
And much greater penetration from the Chinese airlines at the upper end.

It's just so drab.
 

People say our domestic airlines are still worlds apart from Europe and the Americas and yes I guess there is some truth there.

That said by Australian standards of say 2 to 3 decades it has turned into a huge mound of compost.

There comes a time where one has to be thankful for the generation they belonged to and the experience had.

The mid 80's through to now on many levels have seen significant erosion in standards and a general way of airline employment.

Glad I'm not 19 and starting in 2014. I'd rather jump into a river full of hungry piranha's. Be more fun.

SPEY

I thought we'd got over the bullsh*t mentality of yesteryears you demonstrate.

In your day you applied for, and accepted, the T&C's of the time.

Today applicants can only do the same.

If T&C's in your early days were better then bully for you, hope you enjoyed the Hiltons/Hyatts etc and the (occasional) crew discount!! :E

Todays applicants can only apply to, and ultimately accept or reject, what's on offer today.
Just as you did.....all those years ago.:ok:

In no way saying things haven't gone downhill, much as you may hate it still a pretty good job (Vs office 0900-1700 or whatever) for the 10/15/20% of people in life in ANY profession who actually still enjoy what they do....and can still, occasionally, reflect we get paid too much with a magic dawn takeoff ....or a magic sunset or......whatever!

Unfortunately only happens very, very occasionally!!:p

But then who was it who said: "life is what you make it". :ok:

Do you get paid too much?????

I'm afraid people are still missing the point. If Qantas is broken up or reorganised, jetstar incorporated or whatever it doesn't matter. Cost bases don't matter either. What matters is whether the entity that has a 60% market share of the domestic market is privately owned or not.

Public companies are saddled with rules about governance and behaviour, private companies are not. Public companies have to report profits and be transparent about their financial performance. Private companies do not.

The potential value of the entity currently called Qantas to a private owner is immense. Lets start with that huge pool of cash (working capital), then lets look at the unfettered access to world financial markets provided by membership of IATA and the Montreal clearing house, those little items will make merchant bankers salivate.

Then we look at the potential for the owner of the entity called Qantas to leverage the performance of other investments by the provision of scheduled air services. You want to build a resort where? Sorry sunshine, if we don't fly to it, how do you expect to get customers? How about a chunk of Hamilton Island? What happens to Japanese tourists wanting to visit Noosa? How does Cairns fair if the schedules are changed? There is endless temptation to either help or hinder developments in all states by "adjustment" to service levels. They could even make or break State governments.


To put that another way, the entire Qantas debacle is about power. The power to blackmail entire Australian states as well as rape the travelling public.

Right on the money Sunfish. In extremis, this would appear to be the business model for Emirates, the airline facilitates the larger land play for Dubai.

If your thoughts are correct, it implies that current management & board (hence its prized status in the business community) also have immense POWER as they currently direct & facilitate the course of the airline towards the larger agendas, whilst blocking others.

You usually have pretty sound arguments Sunny, but in my view what you proposed denies the realities of the free market.

If Qantas tried to hold anybody to ransom in the manner you propose, the next call made by the victim would be to the ACCC, closely followed by a call to John Borghetti, who would happily step into the breach to pick up the slack.

Granted the call to the ACCC would be relatively futile, but the call to JB would reap immediate benefits.

The threat to employees from a privatised Qantas would be a renewed drive to lower costs. That scenario would test the mettle of the workforce.

The problem QF employees face, and one which it seems the majority of employees are still doing their best to mitigate, is the trashing of the brand. Qantas' biggest differentiator has been in its brand value and safety record, which has allowed Q to charge a premium for tickets.

The safety facade collapsed long ago with the Bangkok incident and has been reinforced multiple times since. That's no real fault of anyones because it was always a facade. Anyone who pegs their reputation to not f@cking up in this industry is always going to come undone eventually.

The brand value has been trashed by the board and management, but its clear to see employees are fighting hard to arrest the fall. Unfortunately having mostly lost its safety and quality market advantage, Qantas will have to compete on price going forward. To do that effectively they need to reduce cost. There is no other way. Qantas will never recover its brand value to the levels it once enjoyed. The travelling public are just too well informed these days.

Once people travel with other carriers and learn that Qantas isn't actually special, their travel choices going forward will be made more on facts than the emotion attached to a children's choir.

The S-Curve isn't going to work either because Virgin can and will continue to match frequency/capacity, and it looks as though AJ has worked that out. The market is going to stabilise eventually, and it will probably look a bit like how it looked when there was only Ansett and TAA.

Whether it meets the career expectations of employees or not, Qantas has to lower its cost base, because it will never recapture the brand value that has now been lost. That's not to say that it can't be the airline that it once was, it just means that they are unlikely to ever be able to get the ticket premiums that they used to enjoy.

I believe that Qantas will always enjoy a small benefit from its brand, because it is quite difficult to completely destroy the image of something as iconic as Qantas, and I'm sure the new CEO's brief will be to rebuild what AJ has destroyed, but make no mistake it will be built on a lower cost base than what you currently see.

The reason I know this is that it has already been repeated many times all over the world. It's not rocket science, its airline economics. Look at the US majors. Granted that if it wasn't for Ch.11 probably none of them would currently exist, but they emerged leaner and stronger and are now making serious money because they have a lower cost base, a more consolidated industry, and a more focused strategy. Whether they can maintain it will be more a product of the workforce than the management. Ch.11 allowed them to circumvent the power of the unions for the moment, whether that can be sustained going forward will be interesting to watch.

By way of comparison, Australia has pretty much completed the consolidation phase, both major carriers have a reasonably focused strategy domestically, so that leaves the cost base. Virgin is currently competitive, therefore Qantas has to respond.

(F$cknose what the Qantas international strategy is, but I'm guessing it will look more like Virgin in 5 years time, than Virgin like Qantas. J* Asia I think is still in a state of flux. Looked good on paper, not so good in reality.)

Because Qantas and Virgin domestic operate in a protected environment, they are not highly exposed to global economic forces. i.e cheap labour in China cannot impact the cost of business in Australia (I am talking specifically about pilots here, I understand cheap labour dramatically effects many other labour groups) because Chines pilots cannot fly Australian aircraft (yet!).

There is always the chance that the next idiot will come along and try and start another LCC in Oz, but they will eventually go broke, as Virgin would have if not for Ansett's demise.

It is my view that the best chance Qantas pilots have to put a floor under conditions is to collaborate with the unions that represent Virgin pilots and have a relatively unified approach to the cost of pilot labour. To be clear, pilots are just a commodity, but one where the commodity has some control over the supply side through industrial legislation.

Of course Virgin pilots need to recognise the same problem, as they are more at risk. For Virgin to compete with Qantas, everything else being equal, they need to have a cheaper ticket. JB was gifted a lower cost base when he walked into Virgin and, despite having had a pretty good crack at increasing it, he will be continually striving to have a lower cost base than Qantas. So as Qantas lowers their cost base, Virgin will need to respond. Hence downward pressure on Virgin salaries going forward.

The days of regulation are gone for sure, and with it the ability to charge on a cost plus basis. This has been good for punters, but not so good for business owners or their employees. For Australian pilots to protect their conditions they need to be better organised than they currently are because the business owners are circling.

The answer is in AUSALPA, but I doubt that wounds have sufficiently healed for that to be anything more than wishful thinking for at least another decade. The problem I see is that if the pilots cannot learn from the past and move on, then management will continue to be one step ahead.

Providing more details has always been a problem with this 6 year, oops 5 year transformation thingy... they need an extra year to figure out how to make up the 5 year plan...? :ooh:

Aaah, but were his lips moving?

What The

Into context please - if you don't occasionally get a kick out of the game for whatever reason, if you're part of the 80% (90%...95%??) of the population who are just doing what they're doing for the $$ and filling in time until they die - then I reckon that's pretty sad.

Maybe that's just my strange outlook.

And no, not ovepaid - indeed seriously underpaid for the truly magnificent skills that I provide to my employer every single day I deign to grace his workplace with my presence!! :p

Cheers!

An apology.
 

galdian

My apologies if I came across in an unappreciative tone.

I absolutely understand that people sign up for T&C's at the time. I had a great time in aviation and am now living another passion. I am grateful for my 26 years of airline employment.

I also agree that life is what you make it however I guess the point I was trying to convey is that it is a touch sad that people in the industry no matter their role be it air/ground/back office or opps the genuine concern for people by management is absent and it appears to be a race to the bottom.

More seats, less and smaller loos, more cancellations than ever and more 'efficiencies and transforming to make airlines better than ever' Great words from the Spin Dr's yet the reality is different from the pretty pictures.

Yes some things are better, technology has improved, systems changed and without suggesting we return to 'Hyatt' days I firmly believe the lack of humanity, care and family contribute to a more uncertain, destabilized and unhappy work environment. Timeless qualities that cost nothing and transcend generations. It's a shame really.

That's progress and I take your point, we all live in different eras and one doesn't miss what they have never had.

I'm glad you seem very happy where you are and again I didn't intend to offend.

Difference of opinion perhaps......
 

Virgin Express wrote:
You usually have pretty sound arguments Sunny, but in my view what you proposed denies the realities of the free market.
If Q tried to hold anybody to ransom in the manner you propose, the next call made by the victim would be to the ACCC, closely followed by a call to John Borghetti, who would happily step into the breach to pick up the slack.

Capitalism plain and simple. Socialise the risk, nationalise the loses. and privatise the profits. In that exact order. Socialise the risk by scaring the crap out of the workforce. But they are all still here. Next nationalise the loses by going to the government and ask for 3 big ones from the taxpayer to cover your bottom line. Yep, tried that too. Last but not least, go private......Its just business.....

KR

Where will we be five years from now?
Exactly in the same position.
the board is seriously dropping the ball on international.
787 deliveries on hold flying three rolls royce powered 744 around burning twice as much fuel as a 777 or 787.
flying nearly fifteen year old A330 around that will be ready for retirement in five years.This is a never ending game of catchup with no vision past next fridays boardroom luncheon.
i hope someone asks some hard hitting questions next week.

PPrune. Free strategic and operational consulting to airline boards everywhere.

(If only they would listen...)

Seriously - so much wisdom gathered here, so little effective decision-making in the board room.

Reverse the roles: If a PIC with 400 souls on board faced an in-flight crisis and didn't make good decisions, the potential outcomes range from 400 headstones to a bit of scraped paint - but whether s/he survived (literally) the outcome, s/he would forever carry the blame. Accountability is forever. It's all built into the pilot's psyche, even at solo level where you might only hurt yourself.

Yet, at board level, they play with their toys. I bet another logo tweak and uniform redesign will be just around the next corner. Nero fiddles while Rome burns.