Rumour mill running hot today. 767 and 747 Captains to be offered VR package of one years pay. |
Ek change Dallas from the 777 to the 380 on 1st Oct. Wonder if this is a coincidence?
The don. |
Rumour mill running hot today. 767 and 747 Captains to be offered VR package of one years pay. |
So cabin crew and engineers who get more than one year are in the same parallel universe I assume?
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G'day fellow posters,
I'm a bit confused with this DFW-SYD 380 flt. I'll be the first to admit that I'm top of the class for being a dumb****e in economics. My question is... If a 747ER can fly chock-a-block full of punters, fuel and freight DFW-BNE then on to SYD, is this not making money? Whereas a 380 flying DFW-SYD with 100 less punters, freight and MORE fuel to burn, is this more economical? Just curious... As the "Redheaded Ranga" said, please explain !!! McHale. :confused::confused:. |
Higher yield due to more P and J class seats.
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Quentin,
Unfortunately you have made some invalid assumptions in your post. I don't fly this sector so I'm having to make some assumptions as well, and I'd appreciate those who know correcting, however:
Whilst the details of the figures may be a bit rubbery, I think you get the general picture. Of course it is possible the 747 can take a bit more to BNE, however it has no First Class and would not enable the link-up. N |
Must admit it is hard to see why the AIPA would, as is required by clause 15.10.3 of the WD, agree to VR terms and conditions fundamentally less than VR terms and conditions offered to Qantas flight attendants and ground engineers.
That Qantas executive and admin staff received 12 months VR, is probably a bonus for most, if not all, of those who’ve left, as the formula is 3 weeks pay for each of one’s first five tears and four weeks’ pay for each year in excess - capped at 95 weeks if one joined after October 96. At the end of the day, the more generous the offer, the greater the acceptance and the less likely it is that young pilots will find themselves out on the street. I for one would be extremely disappointed if any young pilot finds him/herself shown the door and the AIPA has agreed to lesser conditions than what has been negotiated by the FAAA and the ALAEA for their members. |
Or maybe you could engage your brain and realise that AIPA doesn't have rights to "agree" or otherwise to any VR package.
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Tuner,
..er .. the WD implies otherwise ... N |
15.10.3 Voluntary redundancy
(a) The Company may, at its discretion, offer voluntary redundancies prior to making pilots compulsorily redundant. Prior to final determination of the package to be offered, the Company will meet, as a minimum, its obligations pursuant to clause 9 to consult with the Association on details of the package and, in addition, provide the Association the opportunity to negotiate, in good faith, the package to be offered. The Association acknowledges that the package to be offered in the case of voluntary redundancies by the Company is ultimately at the Company’s discretion. |
I beg to differ Tuner.
The WD expressly ‘provides the Association with the opportunity to negotiate, in good faith, the package to be offered’. Happy to be corrected, but can’t imagine that the relevant flight attendant, and/or engineers’ industrial agreement offers the FAAA or the ALAEA any more negotiating strength than the AIPA has. Of course, the litmus test will come, should pilot VR packages to be offered, be less than what is prescribed in the WD for compulsory redundancy and thereafter young pilots are cut loose. If any junior people do go out the door, and the AIPA has accepted lesser terms and conditions than FAAA and/or ALAEA, and have not also protected the jobs of the younger pilots, I say again, I for one will be most disappointed. |
You can beg to differ all you like. The wording as to whom has the final say is unambiguous.
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A 12 month package would likely see maybe 50 max go off the top of the 400 - those over 60 within a couple of years of retirement for whom it's a bit of a bonus to maybe walk out 12 months earlier than planned.
That won't fix the issue for the other 400 or so surplus pilots. The Dallas to the 380 move is going to see another 747 retired early. More surplus pilots. Some may be demoted and redeployed to the 380 but it's a net negative outcome. And the Chief Pilot reckons we should be excited? Who's living in cloud cuckoo land now? :ugh: |
noip,
Thanks mate, much appreciated, even if it is a bit "rubbery". McHale. :ok:. |
I believe Tuner is on the money with this one. At the end of the day it's the companies discretion of what they want to offer and who they want to offer it to when it comes down to VR's. Different story for CR's as it is spelt out in the WD.
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I would appreciate some input from those with greater knowledge than me on the subject of utilisation . Some off the back of an envelope figures would seem to show the 380s flying approx 13 hours a day average for 2 Aust UK returns 2 Aust USA returns and 3 Hong Kong returns a week. By removing it from the Hong Kong services you free up approx 60 hours a week but against that 6 Dallas services a week will add approx 180 hours a week for a net fleet gain of 120 hours a week or 12 hours per airframe per week or approx 1.5 hours per day. This would seem to push the daily utilisation to approx 14.5 per day per airframe. Now, my question is that this seems extremely high. Qantas did this once before in the late 80s with the 747s and it was a disaster. You need huge engineering capacity to do it , it didn't work then and will it be any different now? Personally I doubt it, I'm not bashing the 380 I just can't see Qantas been able to support this sort of daily utilisation and feel that it will cause many delays and substitutions. Your thoughts will be appreciated.
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From my conversations with engineers the A380 is a nightmare of cabin defects. I was told that it's very labour intensive compared with the Jumbo but then I could be wrong but the engineers on this forum could elaborate more?
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In short, Mohikan, less than ones’ CR entitlement and junior pilots shown the door, will not help Qantas and/or AIPA.
Straw polling of ‘ageing pilots’ confirms many are simply not interested in 12 months. They say they still like the job and have much more than 12 months sick leave in the bank. Why would they risk giving the Company a free kick. If all concerned are truly interested in using VR to reduce the number of training courses arising out of RIN and avoiding CR - maximising any offer of VR is the obvious way to go. At the end of the day, the results will speak for themselves and lingering resentment created by avoidable CR is certainly not going to help turn Qantas around. |
Worthwhat, what is to say that Qantas will offer 12 months to our "aging" pilots?
Quite frankly they don't have too. These pilots may find they are offered $2 if Qantas so choses. To somehow think they are going to be offered 95 or 104 weeks just shows some are on a completely different planet. |
Agree Scanner. The very best outcome would be for Qantas to make no VR offers at all to any pilot whatsoever.
That way, no young pilot goes out the door and all get to retire at a time of their choosing. Perfect solution. Shooting the messenger is not going to change the fact that many ageing pilots won’t accept 12 months VR when it is not in their interest to do so. My point is, the more generous any offer of VR is, the less the cost of RIN retraining and the less likely it is that young pilots will be shown the door. Obviously there is a financially tipping point and it would be most regretful if inadequate offers of VR resulted in CR and hundreds of unproductive retraining courses. |
But if Qantas does offer $2 then the pilots don't have to accept it. Then we get to compulsory redundancy. What mechanisms are built into the EBA for this? Is it from the bottom of the seniority list?
If so that means they will have to balance needing to get rid of people NOW with the fact a large number of pilots will be retiring over the next 5-10 years, possibly leaving them short again. |
They will get very few for one year. Personally and including myself I know of five who will go for two years but are going to stay at one years. Maybe there will be a rethink if they don't get the numbers otherwise there are going to be massive training costs.
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General consensus appears to be that 2 years would be the minimum before it was considered acceptable. The opinion being cost of the knock-on effect of these projected training positions caused by the RIN is going to far out way a few VR's at 2 years severance pay so why sell yourself short just to give AJ a free kick. Let's wait and see, feel sorry for the Junior guys though as it is all out of their hands.:(
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Its not like this is an overnight event. This slow motion train wreck has been in progress since 2006 when the A332's were handed to Jetstar Int. This was the beginning of the assigned leave programme - 8 years and nothing has changed. Denial & foot dragging on MOU slots, this problem is entirely of managements own making. There aren't many cheap choices to fix the problem now.
As a worthy side note, the A332's were reportedly making $100 million per airframe to and from PER as the boom cranked up. Pure genius replacing them with the busted ar$e classics. |
Just to answer a few things to your discussion here.
The ALAEA WD has no scope whatsoever for the ALAEA to negotiate or the company to offer lesser redundancy terms. It is simply 3 weeks pay for each of the first 5 years and 4 weeks pay for each thereafter. The 380 is massively labour intensive, particularly in the cabin. I am not licenced on it but I understand the problems are mainly the flimsy weight saving design of many parts. Very interested to read more about the 380 weight restrictions on the DFW-SYD sector. Note the distance in 13,815k and the range of the generic 380 is 15,700k. Wondering is the Qantas range the same as this? Wondering how much fuel needs to be carried for alternates? Wondering how much the range reduces for each pax or tonne of freight? |
Very interested to read more about the 380 weight restrictions on the DFW-SYD sector. Note the distance in 13,815k and the range of the generic 380 is 15,700k. Wondering is the Qantas range the same as this? Wondering how much fuel needs to be carried for alternates? Wondering how much the range reduces for each pax or tonne of freight? 13800km route at 490kt TAS into a 50kt headwind equates to 15350 air KMs. 13800km x TAS490/GS440 = 15368km :) PS I just pulled the 50Kts average Headwind out of the air but I am guessing it could get that high on a bad day. |
I think that's about it ... estimates only, but they'll be not too far off I'd say. N |
You guys up there would know better than I. What range do you see headwinds? Is it often to see headwinds the entire way when flying back over the big pond?
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Something about yields amongst all of this....
I find this guy good at providing an alternate view to those of the expert and creedy. Truce in Qantas, Virgin Australia dogfight a false dawn? | Aspire Aviation Importantly, one should bear in mind that it is yield, or revenue per RPK measuring the return of airfares per unit of passenger traffic, that contributes to an airline’s bottom line. Qantas’s yields are currently at the lowest level in more than 10 years whereas Virgin has been reporting higher yields, owing to its successful capture of corporate travel contracts which the airline puts at high-20s. While it is true that Qantas still enjoys a revenue premium against Virgin, it is increasingly apparent that Qantas has not benefited from the recent rise in business class airfares which have soared to an index of 92.7 in April 2014, the highest since November 2011, according to the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics (BITRE). |
I've found this is pretty mesmerising for winds, temperatures etc. Click "Earth" to start selecting what you want ..
earth :: an animated map of global wind and weather Winds and route depend on the day ... usually 10 - 30 kt average headwind .. N |
You guys up there would know better than I. What range do you see headwinds? Is it often to see headwinds the entire way when flying back over the big pond? Todays QF8 has an average component of -17kt and the QF12 -15kt. so noips 10 to 30 is on the money. |
I know its different engines and a heavier 380 takeoff weight, but EK figures for DXB to LAX yesterday (7491nm) are TOW = 565t (max 575t) revenue carried 55.5t (full seats of 489 plus a 4.5t freight) with a wind component of 0kts (over the pole).
LAX to DXB (7522nm) TOW 575t revenue carried 58.5t (full 489 seats plus 7.5t freight). EK always carries an ALTN. The Don |
Don,
What's the approximate empty weight of the Emirates 380's? QF's are around 285T, so at MTOW they can carry 284T of payload and fuel. |
This will be most attractive to those who are approaching 65 and who were intending to only stay another 1-3 years. Depending on the number of years of service the tax breaks may be enough to get them over the line. $4758/year for a 40 year employee works out to be $190k tax free. Will that be enough? Time will tell. Ps those who have been saying 'Im just waiting for a redundancy, then I'm going to retire', time to put your tax free money where your mouth is The only way to settle this mess other than the obvious is to offer VR and hope that enough take it, at least this will give the junior pilots some relief and hopefully a future. The trouble is the cost and what would be the cheaper, all the training costs plus having to make some compulsory redundancies to get the numbers right, or bite the bullet and have VR? My bet is the former. |
QF's are around 285T, so at MTOW they can carry 284T of payload and fuel. Being so range critical, the new availability of Cat II ILS systems won't be of much help as they will be unable to carry sufficient fuel for a full alternate. |
Dubai (AFP) - Emirates airlines, the largest Middle East carrier, said Thursday it posted a 43 percent surge in profit to $887 million last year as fuel costs dropped and passenger numbers rose.
Please explain...... |
I'm not sure there is much of a tax break for VR Refer to the ATO website for all the details. Holding out for "2 years, and not a day less". Haha!:D Thats the funniest thing I've read all day. Good luck with that, pops! VR, if it happens, will be like every other role. You will express your interest and they will come back with a figure. Everyone's will be different. Why would they offer 2 years pay to someone on the top of the pile, when they could threaten to force him to displace someone in Perth? As for who will take it? I'm guessing those who are considering a move o/s anyway. 767 and A330 crew with mid seniority who aren't holding out for 2 years pay is my guess. |
Payload
At overall 30kt headwind the payload is 400 pax no freight and standard Visual company reserves. Winds won't be that bad most of the time.
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Holding out for "2 years, and not a day less". Haha! Thats the funniest thing I've read all day. Good luck with that, pops! |
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