Ok, i work for an overseas airline. ( I had no desire to, prior to the year we don't talk about) . My home city is Perth. Even if I wanted to travel Qantas on an International sector I can't any more.

I spent a long time overseas, and hope to,enjoy, shortly, the fruits of my labor.

So, I say to my darling wife of 29 years, the kids are finally gone, let's start having some fun again...how about a week in Singapore.

I know exactly what she will say.....are we booking Business class honey ? With SIA...Cathay..or Malaysian...., if I told her we were flying Jokestar my 29 year marriage may go down the

Geez, that's a bit harsh.

I've paxed with J* a fair bit. The service may not be up there with Singapore Airlines, etc, but I'd be worried about the state of my marriage if one flight could unravel 29 years of love?

I'm sure you weren't being literal SOPS.

bdcer - Do you have any understanding of how women work?

Are you married to Bob Carr???

I thought PER-SIN was A320 hence no J class/Star Class whatever!!!

Touché Steve

Is this the price QF pays for jumping in bed with EK?
 

I see QF are cutting back on flights to LHR during May. If I recall this has never happened before. Whilst I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere, but is this the start of the slippery slope downwards for the kangaroo route?

Time will tell..............

Qantas to cut some Dubai to London flights in May - Business Traveller

For the record, QF did the same thing in Feb this year following the record loads over the Dec/Jan period. It's simply quiet over that time.

G'day ;)

and for the further record, QF have done so in the past - pre 380 days via SIN. Anyone who may have looked at the 'quiet times' to stafftravel to/from europe will have found days where various flights wouldn't show up... the 9 and 5 were the usual culprits.
hardly anything new, just folks trying to piss on the dxb thing even more. (that it deserves it is beside the point). Keep your facts straight.

Sunny you touch on a very salient point. Yes there needs to be some competitiveness. However there needs to be some balance.

Free Trade is the Holy Grail of so many politicians and bureaucrats.

Countries like OZ and NZ have a higher standard of living than many of the countries we now take services and products from. The workers in Oz and NZ do not "enjoy" the lower costs of living of these countries, they need higher wages to survive. The business owners in OZand NZ have much higher compliance costs, just take a look at H & S compliance compared to the many of the countries we import from. The end result is we transfer jobs off shore.

It might be Free Trade BUT is it Fair Trade?

I'd like to see the response of these politicians and bureaucrats if we as taxpayers told then we had found some better and cheaper politicians and bureaucrats from off shore and they were no longer needed.

Working at Melbourne airport for 15 years, I never saw the 9 cancelled due to poor loads.

No I wasn't been literal....not quite:ok:

Fair point maggot, Feb has always been a slow month for LHR, but May? Anyway, this stuff was never reported in the mainstream media in the past as far as I can remember with negative headlines like these.

or

In media speak, Qantas management is on the watch list, probably cried wolf too many times, so when this happens, more negative stories hit the front pages.

It's a perception issue, similar to the Sol Trujillo Telstra thing, the media were onto him daily right up to the day he left. Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian Service industry companies have always been affected by these perceptions.

Latest news - easyJet plc

Like BA, it hurt the Telstra business big time in the long lead up to the CEO's departure.

How did BA solve the problems at GO?

They sold it to Venture capitalists 3i

BBC News | BUSINESS | BA sells Go for £100m

A year later 3i sell on to Easyjet.

BBC News | BUSINESS | Easyjet buys Go for £374m

Interesting HHB. Exactly why Qantas can't sell Jetstar. It has value. Someone buys it, uses it's low cost base and operational infrastructure as a weapon, turns it into a premium carrier, and then it's curtains for mainline.

FT, what's the difference if some one else or AJ uses it as a weapon against Qantas? Same result but if it's sold some senior managers get big performance and success bonuses for a job well done.:}

Mud Skipper,
I would argue that if Qantas sold Jetstar, or someone else had started a Jetstar-equivalent rather than Qantas, the end is even closer for Qantas mainline...
While sure some routes have been given to Jetstar, I suspect a well capitalised LCC would do/would have done far more damage, far more quickly.

The only solution is to get QFs cost base down - and this is not just wages, it is outdated inflexible work practices, massively inefficient levels of management,, as well as particularly internationally some things to level the playing field - depreciation rates, airport charges and infrastructure etc

27/09
I commend you on your post, sir!
Nothing to add

27/09 re free trade vs Fair trade. What is "fair" is always in the eye of the beholder.

I keep getting this mantra about Chinese coolies in rags and working on dirt floors undercutting Australian workers conditions.

The reality is that most Chinese factories are far more modern than anything Australian and they are filled with the latest high tech gear operated by very well educated Chinese. That is the source of their cost competitiveness.

Every company I have seen calling for "fair" trade is invariably badly managed with a history of under investment in technology and people.

To put that another way, we both know that if Qantas was competently managed, invested in its people instead of outsourcing and operated a better fleet (B777, B787 for example) it could command a premium in the marketplace as it once did.

To put that yet another way, back in the 1970's and early 80's there was nothing I liked better than boarding a Qantas B747 at LHR, FRA, etc. hearing a happy Australian accent from the crew and being handed a VB without having to ask, however that level of service is now gone.


As for selling Jetstar, yes, Qantas would find the same expereince as BA sell for chickenfeed and watch the buyer make a killing. It's a very common occurence because it is axiomatic in business that a Board and senior management can only be good at running ONE business.

That is why the "Qantas Group" is such a lousy rotten unmanageable structure - the whole is less than the sum of its parts. The Board and management is constantly being forced to divide its time between Jetstar, Qantas International, Qantas Domestic, Qantas Link, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar Japan, etc., etc. Thus NONE of the businesses get the time and mature consideration each one deserves.

We learned in business economics 101 that this is why conglomerates always fail - their share price is always less than the broken up asset value of the businesses.

If the Qantas Board really believed that a Low cost carrier was needed, they should have invested in the floating of a seperate public company - with its own Board and investors, that was totally at arms length.

Wesfarmers seem to be going ok, maybe you need to revisit business economics 101:}

Sunny.


Generally appreciate your posts, however your statement about conglomerates ignores he success of the chaebols in Korea.
Pre Asian Financial crisis 8th largest world economy, dominated by a handful of conglomerates. Samsung and Hanjin for e.g.


Maui

Speaking of Jetstar Hong Kong, does anyone have any info on how their TLS hub is performing??:ok:

I still don't see the need for duplicated structure (in QANTAS's case not just a duplicate but many many times that) - was it Air New Zealand which said we already have a low cost carrier ?- "its called economy.... "

...unfortunately it wouldn't have solved their legacy problem which i believe is mainly centred around engineering practices, which is ironic because the engineering practices have given it in no small part its safety record.

but lets not forget its (mis) managements pathological hatred of its staff which has gotten QF to the basket case it is today - oh and a complete inability to run an airline!

Reportedly very well.
Not one flight has left with an empty seat. :)

Also staffing costs are running much lower than budget at its secondary HKG hub.

High fives and management bonuses all round. :D

MoaBlueloo
It's easy to roll this line out but lets look at the work practices and I ask you to identify the ones we are talking about, that way they can be discussed and not just brought up as a throw away line.

I think every employee is conscious of the fact that you need to be efficient, however the problem that QF has, is that the senior management like to throw the terms like world's best practice in.
What is world's best practice?
This term should be read as the cheapest we can get away with.
The only time we have heard about comparisons was with the recent senate enquiry, which touched on the levels of lame coverage between different maintenance organisations.

Every process should be examined to look for efficiencies, but also accepting work protocols used elsewhere because they can get away with it, shouldn't be looked as the holy panacea.

Well stated, hotnhigh!

"Inflexible work practices" and "legacy engineering procedures" are mainly brought about by whomever wrote the Qantas Engineering Procedures Manual.....

This manual is mainly an arse covering tome by management to try and prevent any liability on their behalf. If these procedures were followed to the letter, there wouldn't be too many aircraft actually flying...

Better not forget about OH+S requirements either, they legislated common sense out of the workplace. If the cheap Asian MRO's had to comply like we do, they would no longer be cheap!

The first thing I think of when I hear that term is dud management. Apparently, there must be a practice that the world has voted to be the best, it could even be the saying itself.

Thinking further about AJ's call for cutting 5000 jobs, if it is not based on any sound business principles, could it then be construed as work place bullying? I'd be willing to accept this fate if there were valid well reseached business reasons for the 5000 jobs to be cut, but not if it was just a whim of AJ's confused management style.

Cloudbuster and Maui:

With the greatest of respect, you are missing the point. Of course these businesses are successful, but the individual (and unrelated) units of the business would be even more successful if they were on their own and not as part of a larger entity.

Take Wesfarmers for example:

"Wesfarmers Industrial and Safety division is the leading provider of industrial and safety products and services in Australia and New Zealand. It also has a presence in Indonesia, export activities across the region and sourcing and logistics operations in China. Customers across mining, oil and gas, retail, construction and infrastructure, manufacturing, health and government rely on our generalist and specialist businesses."

"Blackwoods is the largest Australian distributor of industrial, engineering and safety workplace needs. A single source supplier, Blackwoods aims to deliver great customer service, competitive prices and fast delivery. The company has recently introduced an innovative shutdown and inventory management solution for customers.

Blackwoods export into southern Asia, Africa and the south Pacific regions. The company’s business-to-business and internet ordering solutions are supported in-house by Blackwoods’ dedicated e-business team, catering for all business sizes, types, needs, technology and processes.

The Blackwoods business also includes Bakers Construction and Industrial and Blackwoods Electrical Supplies."

" CSBP Ammonia, Ammonium Nitrate and Industrial Chemicals

CSBP manufactures and supplies ammonia, ammonium nitrate and industrial chemicals to the Western Australian resource and industrial sectors."

"Australian Vinyls is Australia's leading manufacturer and supplier of polyvinyl chloride resin. Australian manufacturers convert AV's resin into a variety of products including pipe, electric cable insulation, packaging, floor coverings and profiles. AV's subsidiary ModWood produces wood-plastic composite products from recycled wood and plastic."

"CSBP Fertilisers manufacture, import and distribute phosphate, nitrogen and potassium based fertilisers in blended, compound and liquid form for the Western Australian agricultural sector. CSBP also offers farmers a comprehensive soil and plant analysis service supported by the NUlogic interpretation model delivered by its network of staff and accredited partners in regional WA."

"Premier Power Sales Pty Ltd is a retailer of electricity to customers connected to the South West Interconnected System (SWIS) in Western Australia, with a particular focus on large commercial and industrial sites."

"Wesfarmers operates the Curragh mine situated 200 kilometres west of Rockhampton in Queensland’s Bowen Basin. As one of Australia’s largest independent coal producers, Curragh produces around nine million tonnes of metallurgical and steaming coal annually."

Add to that retail consumer stuff and insurance.

I defy any Board to be across the finer points of due diligence that it is a Boards duty to keep track of. The Board meetings must be a hoot. One minute we are talking coal mines, then fertilizer, then safety gloves then milk prices and the cost of nails.

At some point Wesfarmers will stumble because they are trying to be all things to all men, at which time the predators will buy in and break it up.

But don't take my word for it. Read the regular news stories about companies paying stratospheric prices for other companies, only to sell them for peanuts a few years later as "non performing assets" - at which time the private buyers clean up the mess and make a killing.

If only we could.....!!!!

I think it's safe to say that the majority of engineers are frankly quite sick of management banging that old drum. Engineering procedures over the last few years has changed significantly.

Those people banging the old "legacy engineers" drum are usually the ones who have not been around long enough to see the changes. :ugh:

They (particularly the champagne sipping - first class travelling HR headkickers) generally despise those who have been around longer than themselves.

Look, there are many smart people here, much smarter than me, so can you please explain to me how it is that that fat Joe and Mr Rabbit say we (dumb LAME's) are over paid, and people working in the car industry (where I used to work ) are over paid and that's the reason that its all turning to poo. Well, I look at the wages of German and Japanese workers (LAME's A&P's or whatever they are called) and I see that I would be happy to earn what they do. So I ask, is the reason that everything is turning to poo because I am over paid (because of union action) or is it because our pollies. ie fat Joe and the rabbit just too dumb to set up the economy to give a decent living standard for the average person?

PS Also ofcourse, lets not forget the pensioners, those evil people living off Joe and Tony' back, ba@##rds

There's that word " legacy " again.

It's as if it means "inherited" in a demeaning way.

As a matter of fact, one could be forgiven for thinking that if you say "legacy whatever" is a bad thing for long enough, others, ususally those less experienced, will begin to believe it. These people also believe that practices and procedures need to change to achieve efficiencies of scale when they do not.

The time that it takes to do an inspection or carry out maintenance of any kind might vary with the technology available, but the practices and professionalism used do not.

All the wisdom in aircraft maintenance has been inherited and learned, so is a valuable asset, yet some describe it as a liability.

I believe the issue is not LAME salary but as Steve pointed out at the Senate Estimates the ratio and quality of the subordinates. Overseas they are getting low skilled people to work for peanuts under the LAME.

In Australia we get people who have various qualifications working their way toward a License.

Australia has created a system that works and can keep producing LAMEs but now that system is apparently to expensive so the Government will assist in tearing it up by changing all the rules.

Sunfish

In the words of Sir Humphrey Appleby.." Prime Minister, I couldn't agree with you more but I will certainly try".

As a substantial holder of WES shares, I think they are an outrider. I would also put GE Capital in that bracket. As long as the businesses owned by conglomerates are #1 or #2 in their market, they will generally prosper and the holding company will, with devolved management, be able to overcome the natural tendency for conglomerates to self-destruct.

That said, I agree with your general comments on conglomerates.

To compare QF to WES doesn't actually make any sense, simply because QF Group has units that cannibalise each other in the SAME sector.

BA is an interesting case study.

The minute Ayling was fired, the first item of business for the new Australian CEO was to simplify the business and stop competing with itself. At the time BA owned a number of subsidiaries including, GO, Deutsche BA and Air Liberte. These rubbish subsidiaries consumed immense capital and more importantly management time. They were also a convenient excuse for management to explain the poor performance of BA's short haul business.

The sale or shutting down of these businesses was the first step in the salvation of BA. At the time they also owned 25% of QF and had two board seats. The reason BA sold out in short order was not the failed merger discussions but based purely on the fact that Dixon was replicating the structure that BA was shutting down.

Joyce may be the one to wear the brown smelly stuff but Dixon will own title to the wreckage.

Sunfish
Agreed, Joyce could actually enjoy wearing 'it' and Dixon gave it to him ...:eek:

Been a slow week on the 5000 job loss front/lets keep everyone scared about losing their job. Don't forget they had to stop all AC flying that weekend in 2011 due safety...

Joyce et al is about as organised and well thought out as Red Q was to save QF by flying all Biz class A320 in China...:ugh:

FFRATS

Yes, it's very strange how he seems to think it's perfectly acceptable to keep everyone in the company scared for their future for weeks on end.

The man seems to have no clue and no direction :ugh::ugh:

AJ's announcement of 5000 jobs to go & pay freezes across the board were directed at the financial & investment community.

The impact of those statements on employees is collateral damage in AJ's war on a weakened share price.

That raises another interesting point.

If that announcement was made specifically for the markets and share price and it did not reflect what was really going on, then doesn't that raise issues re "false and deceptive conduct" under Corporations Law?

I did say "if".

fait accompli

AJ's announcements implied the pay freezes & the equivalent of 5000 full time jobs to go as a certainty.

Meanwhile, we are collectively struggling to see where the 5000 jobs will come from.

So too, the Enterprise bargaining processes when it comes time to negotiating labour agreements.

As mentioned by a different poster earlier on this thread. The vast majority of mainline pilots aren't prepared to give this mob ANY pay freeze.

MC.

What rock have you been hiding under? Shorthaul’s last payrise was in 2011. It feels like a 3 year pay freeze already. I’m not seeing the vast majority of anyone doing squat to change it.